robardin

There is no chance that Brandon, who outlines and plots out story arcs completely before filling in the words, "kind of forgot" about Gaz's role in TWoK and what it meant to Kaladin and Bridge Four (especially given the scene when they were first "reunited" in Words of Radiance when Shallan arrived at the warcamps, or the offhand mention by Gaz while hanging out with Shallan's semi-forgotten crew of Vathah's band of how he was glad "those storming bridgemen haven't strung me up by my toes"). It's a ten book arc, and each book is a trilogy unto itself, yeah? So, patience! Yes, the Gaz-and-Bridge-Four dynamics will be interesting to see, but given what else happened in Oathbringer, it's not too surprising that it was sort of put onto a back burner. (And I would assume any such arc fits into the first five books as the set-within-a-set.)

Yes, and in one of the few POVs we have from Gaz (in The Way of Kings, when he was the bridge seargeant): "Gaz had never gotten used to having just one eye. Could a man get used to that?" It's not the effect it had on his life, but the cognitive acceptance of it as part of his identity, that would determine how the Stormlight healing worked (as with Lopen's missing arm).

Yes. That was always the case. Odium is the void, who "takes the pain" and "gives you Passion when you need it". I wonder if Renarin's A-gold like (or A-malatium like, but visible to all) effect was somehow linked to his being A Different Kind Of Truthwatcher. It would be very interesting if the Illumination of Alternate History was a thing for him exactly because Glys was touched by Sja-anat, the way that he gets those visions of foresight. Also interesting is that it appeared to be an unconscious effect from Renarin. It reminded me of how Shallan first created a Lightweaving of a topological map of Roshar triggered by Dalinar's Connection and bond to the Stormfather. Perhaps whatever Moash was doing with or to Kaladin, to get him to surrender to Odium, triggered it in Renarin. I don't know. He felt pain at seeing the Moash That Could Have Been... The Moash That Should Have Been. Perhaps like in the Wheel of Time, there will be a theme to the efffect that no man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light. Or maybe he gets the Saruman type of ending from The Lord of the Rings. Or best of all, a completely new Sanderson take on a fall/redemption/somewhere in between arc that none of us will see coming. Storms, maybe he Ascends to be a vessel to a different interpretation Odium! I don't think Moash was suggesting that Kaladin kill himself, or to let Moash kill him (he had put away his knife and had not summoned his Blade). No, he was pushing Kaladin to surrender to the void of Odium the way that he had done - notice that he wasn't able to hear Syl any more as he started falling into that emotional numbness. I don't even think Moash was using any kind of magic, Surge or otherwise, on Kaladin there. Just forcing Kaladin to replay events and thoughts in his head through intimately knowing his life, deeds, and thoughts, just as Odium had done with Dalinar at Thaylen Fields. The simple act of "accepting the void", that "it wasn't my fault" and "giving the pain" away (to a waiting Odium), would be enough for Kaladin to fall (...to become Odium's Champion??? Is that Vyre's "work?") Yes, Gaz is a Lightweaver squire now who's healed his missing eye with Stormlight. I wonder how Bridge Four has taken to that? But even more interesting is your speculation as to what deeper truths Shallan has yet to admit to herself. She murdered her father. She killed her mother. What is left in terms of painful, deeply repressed, life-altering memories in her life that we know or have hints about?

Why so? I'm not talking about a radical alteration, like becoming a koloss, but the kind of physical transformation we already see effectuated by Zahel and Azure on Roshar (versus from what we've seen of them in Warbreaker). Eye color, hair color, growing out hair length or facial hair, scars, height/physical size, that kind of thing. Hair growth at least is a one-shot, even if the other things are in fact requiring constant Investiture but it's the "stickiness" of Breath vs. Stormlight that is powering those facets.

Right, like on The Tick with Arthur's suggested "battle cry" of NOT IN THE FACE, NOT IN THE FACE!

(Checks forum; spoilering for Warbreaker anyway) It's also WoB'bed to be very similar to what drives the "Royal Locks" ability/behavior of the Idris ruling line in Warbreaker, So it'd be interesting if a Truthwatcher, in particular, who has command of both the Surges of Regrowth and Illumination, could not just make an illusion that modified their appearance (size, age, hair color, scarring, etc.) but actually modify their physical body (with Regrowth to remap the physical form to a cognitive template) in such a way that it didn't need the constant supply of Stormlight to feed it (as an illusion would). Pretty ironic then for a "Truthwatcher" to perhaps actually be better at going undercover than a Lightweaver like Shallan, eh? (Except for the whole "adopting another persona and acting it out" bit, I suppose)

So this is an interesting question that must have historical precedent with the rare, but occasional darkeyes who became lighteyes in the past by winning Shards on the field of battle. They're personally elevated to the fourth dahn, but what about their families? As far Kaladin being third dahn now, where is that mentioned? Oh, him being a Highmarshal - that's technically a (very minor) spoiler for Rhythm of War Chapter 3, tsk tsk tsk! Kaladin may now be a Highmarshal, a title which outranks a Battalionlord which in turn is fourth dahn (the same title that was conferred upon Azure as the commander of the Wall Guard at Kholinar, which command spanned four battalions); but that doesn't necessarily mean a Highmarshal is third dahn. We have explicit mention that "Generals" and "Highlords" are third dahn (it's also in the Coppermind as such), and surely "General" still outranks "Highmarshal". So it could be a spectrum where fourth dahn includes a Highmarshal despite being a step above Battalionlord, equally as likely as a Highmarshal being considered third dahn while being a step below General. Given how many bridgemen have become full Radiants as well as squires, almost all originally darkeyes, there are going to be a lot more "real lighteyes" in Alethkar now, eh? They may have to come up with "super-dahn" for Nahel Bond Lighteyes versus Born With Light Eyes lighteyes? And since you bring it up, in terms of what we've seen in the first seven chapters of Rhythm of War, though I'll keep the spoilers to a minimum (about at the level as you just dropped that Kaladin explicitly holds the rank of Highmarshal),

Whoa whoa whoa. Axies is literally blue, like physically so; and has got an actual curse, making him a focal point for the "wrong kind of Fortune"? Like being Born Under A Bad Sign? If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all. You can't get much more blue than that, brother.

We don't know that part, do we? Only that whatever happened on Ashyn resulted in the catastrophic destruction of most of that world via "Surges" and "use of the Dawnshards", with a large portion of the people there evacuating to Roshar afterwards, and that Odium came to Roshar with them (timing-wise, not like the larva of an invasive species... I don't think...). Whether or not Honor and/or Cultivation were already present and worshiped by the singers in a pre-Odium Roshar, or vice versa that Honor and/or Cultivation were known and worshiped on Ashyn before its destruction and the flight of most of its human population, are not clear. Roshar, its highstorm based ecoysystem, and the singers (and other large, gemhearted creatures) all pre-date the Shattering of Adolansium, so one would assume that Asyhn (and Braize) are that old as well. And we have it straight from the Ancient Daughter, Sylphrena: "I wasn't alive then, but I know this truth. [Odium] was your first god, before you turned to Honor."

That's a very plausible take, I'll buy that. But it's still curious how long ago Mrall was "swapped out". What's the longest term a kandra has impersonated someone? Paalm was "Lessie" to Wax for almost 15 years... But to impersonate someone from childhood or adolescence, or into middle age and beyond, with all the subtle changes that acrrue over time, it might well be unusual and require a very experienced kandra to do convincingly. "Wow, you look almost the same at 21 as when I last saw you at 16!" "Ha ha!" (one month later) "Well, you went and grew up in a hurry." "Growth spurt."

Well then, where was the (lack of) justification to prosecute Sadeas for his betrayal of Dalinar - which wasn't secret; he lied to the Queen Mother's FACE, and Renarin, both family to the king, in public - about what happened out there with the Parshendi. Even if Dalinar mentally reflected that Alethi culture drew a difference between abandoning an ally on the battlefield and openly attacking another highprince, that betrayal also meant that Sadeas had been willing not just to abandon Dalinar, Adolin, and their 8,000 Kholin troops to die, but to furnish the Parshendi enemy with the two complete sets of Shards they bore in so doing. He even described the "Parshendi savages" to Navani as carrying away bloody chunks of their Shardplate as prizes, as if they wouldn't even know how Shardplate worked. That has to be considered some serious, top level "traitor to the vengeance pact" stuff. So I'm not saying Sadeas "shouldn't have been killed", or even that there wasn't already a basis for Elhokar (as the Alethi king and a Kholin, to boot) to render harsh judgment on him. He forbore because Dalinar forbore, who in turn forbore out of his deep desire to UNITE THEM, which still included the Sadeas highprincedom as being roughly 1/12 of Alethkar. However, the basis for Kaladin saying they should get justice "the right way" and not via "murder in a dark corridor" doesn't carry the conclusion, "unless justice the right way had its chance and chose to stand down". As Syl said, "You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin." It makes for an interesting thought experiment, as his confession to the murder only happened almost at the very end of Words of Radiance and the repercussions have yet to be shown. While we see his being named the Kholin highprince and marriage to Shallan still went on as planned, so whatever they were, they didn't preclude that... But while I'm sure Kaladin doesn't regret the death of Sadeas, will that revelation change the way that Kaladin views Adolin?

Also: the people coming from Ashyn brought their God with them, the God of the Void, Odium. "He was your God before you turned to Honor."

That's essentially what I'm assuming DID happen. Partly because there was no reason to be particularly interested in getting a kandra spy close to Taravangian until the Diagram was A Thing. You can posit that Harmony had foresight about that and played a very long game in placing a kandra close to Mr. T from way back in preparation for The Day of Brilliance, as people have done, but that's going beyond the domain of Occam's Razor (which I realize doesn't really apply as a principle to fictional storytelling, of course, but still). Simplest surface explanation for "Mrall is a kandra" would be, he was targeted for impersonation once the Diagram made him attractive as a point of entry. In which case, who killed Mrall to provide his body to the kandra? Is or was there a non-kandra agent of Harmony on Roshar as well, or was this kandra "at liberty" to kill on his/her own, the way that MeLaan is? And hey, maybe Mrall was killed with fire and his hair was singed off, and that's why the kandra had no way to replicate it, LOL. And as for Harmony's Foresight being a factor - Odium's foresight got messed with by Cultivation's "pruning" of Dalinar, so Foreseeing what would happen with Taravangian's visit to the Nightwatcher seems like it would be similarly difficult. I'd imagine that for a Shard to Foresee another Shard's interventions is probably the hardest thing for one of them to predict.

Wait. Your username is "The Dude That Wore White"... And that WASN'T a reference to the (non-Prelude) opening scene of The Way of Kings?

So had Kaladin been in the vicinity, fresh off from swearing the Third Ideal of the Windrunners... ...would it not have been right to defend even the hated, but unarmed Sadeas from Adolin? (With neither having summoned their Shardblade, but Adolin having a knife?) He'd just said to Moash: "We're not going to be this kind of men. Murders in dark corridors, ... telling ourselves it's for the good of the kingdom." Isn't that literally and exactly what Adolin did?

And yet they must be. And they need to be tricked or otherwise convinced into letting that happen. So is that Venli's doing, or is some singer religion like a Cult of the Returned Gods taking root among the singers? Which would be particularly tragic this time around, given that just about all of them only recently even awakened to full cognition.

So what I hear you saying is that someday Shallan Davar will take up Autonomy? --- Naaaaah.

So at the Battle of Narak, Venli led (forced) most of the listeners to stand outside in the Everstorm and become transformed into stormform - these who would later become renamed as "singers" by the returned Fused. Meanwhile, "parshmen" slaves all over Roshar who were exposed to the Everstorm were similarly transformed - but into what? Stormform? Warform? (Warform is how Rlain presents himself to Dalinar, wasn't it, though his eyes had become red, so perhaps it was stormform?) The ones that Kaladin tracked out of Hearthstone in Oathbringer (Sah, Khen, et al.), they were in workform, right? The Alethi-like singers that Venli see as acting very human, she notes as "singers" who "wore mostly workform, nimbleform... scholarform". Oh, and some number of listeners got away before the Battle of Narak, into the chasms or something, right? Now, the Fused are reborn into singers with each Everstorm - and it seems the singers in question have to accept the incoming Fused. In I-6 of Oathbringer we see Venli coming very close to being taken for one along with her once-mate Demid. However, her POV described a pressure on her mind and soul, demanding let me in, which implies she could have refused. And Ulim had instructed them first, "You have to want it, or the powers will not be able to take a place in your gemhearts." They didn't know it'd cost them their own lives, though; they thought they were taking on another form of power, rather than yielding up their physical selves, and Venli at the time forced herself to acquiesce to the demand to prove herself committed. But they were the first batch of listeners turned to singers to take in the Fused, and were essentially tricked into doing it. ("You said we were opening ourselves up to a new spren, a new form!" -- "I said," Ulim hissed, "that you were opening yourselves up. I didn't say what would enter. Look, your gods need bodies. It's like this every Return. You should be flattered.") So, all the Fused we see cycling again and again later, such as Leshwi - they are being reborn in singers who were once parshmen, yes? But after seeing the Fused come back a number of times, surely they all realize the cost at this point? They all buy into it as "flattery" to give up their newly-awakened lives for the Fused to return? Or is part of Venli's job as an Envoy to continue to convince parshmen-to-singers to yield themselves to the Fused with each Everstorm?

And something that I think isn't addressed often enough in fantasy is that, unless they started living in sheltered, Rivendell-like enclaves for thousands upon thousands of years, and maybe even if they did, "biologically immortal" beings would eventually die in an accident just living an ordinary life over a very long time span. All the corner case improbabilities start to get a lot of rolls of the dice, so to speak. A roster of such beings and their ultimate fates ought to read pretty funny. Sure, there would be a few instances of heroic self-sacrifice in there, but also a lot of "slipped in the shower and hit/her his head just wrong" or "forgot to put on safety goggles before checking the obstruction in the pressure valve".

I kind of assumed for Mrall to be as close with Taravangian as Adrotagia is, that his history with Mr. T probably ran as far back - or at least, further than his conceiving of the Diagram, which as I recall (but I'm not entirely sure why, at the moment) happened right around, or just after, Gavilar's death, right? Of course once he'd formed the Diagram as a "secret society" it's not impossible for The Shaven Thaylen to have come in through normal recruitment methods, and then risen in the organization to the position of trusted right-hand man who gets to pronounce the limits of Taravangian's authority on a daily basis. But my assumption was, and kind of still is (without basis either way in the text), that they must have already known each other for a while. And Adrotagia seems fully comfortable with the two of them being separate but equally trusted adjutants to Taravangian. If Mrall was a Thaylen-come-lately of only a few years' acquaintance where she was a childhood friend and longtime head scribe/ardent, she might be kind of resentful. As as for "when would the kandra insert him/herself as Mrall?", I would have thought only when it became apparent that Taravangian was someone to watch closely, which until his Day of Genius would not have been apparent. So the way I assume things would go chronologically would be: Taravangian is close with Mrall, or at least knows him well Taravangian has his Diagram Day Taravangian begins assembling the Diagram as an organization This catches the eye of a kandra on Roshar ... ... who "becomes" Mrall and makes himself indispensable to Mr. T And it's that last one that makes me wonder how the becoming happened, because it would require Mrall to be dead, for starters, without Taravangian knowing about it. EDIT: for the record, I really like the connection here with the little cues in Mrall's behavior and appearance and targeting him in the Great Rosharan Kandra Hunt. Just wondering what other extended inferences could be made as a result.

Not to mention what looked suspiciously like unconscious, low-level Stormlight healing when Adolin dug himself out from under a collapsed building covered in dust, with just some pain that didn't prevent him from standing. And warning him of an incoming Fused behind him (meaning she has also got a tie to the Phyiscal Realm even when not summoned as a Blade). I don't think her full restoration and a Nahel bond with Adolin is necessarily the arc here - for one, it seems too obvious - nor do I think Lasting Integrity would come into the the picture (Mayalaran is/was a cultivationspren, not an honorspren), but at the very least, a semi-revived Shardblade with a deeper-than-gem bond with her bearer would make for good reading. Even more interesting would be if reviving a dead spren meant Maya was free to bond someone as a cultivationspren... other than Adolin. And Adolin becomes a "Blade Whisperer" who has some kind of talent in reawakening deadeye Blades. LOL. (Not really serious, but that actually would be an interesting direction to go in)

If Mrall is the kandra, then it also raises the question of when the switch happened. And how. Presumably, to be in a position of great intimacy and trust with Taravangian, Mrall has been with him for a long time - since before That Day Of Brilliance, as with Adrotagia. And a kandra would have had to... Learn... A great deal about Mrall before being able to imitate him. So did this kandra torture and kill the original Mrall, as TenSoon did with OreSeur (the First Contract being nullified after the Catacendre, given how freely MeLaan goes about killing people)? That's kind of dark. If not, how did the kandra gain access both to Mrall's body - without Taravangian and Adrotagia realizing he'd died in between - and intimate details of Mrall's history with Mr. T, in order to pass convincingly as a longtime and close associate?

Haha, a few years ago I too put a "shash" brand on a Peep around Eastertime - it's now my board avatar - but man, you went waaaaaay over and beyond that! You need to do a stop action animation of this. Peepmation?

OK, fair point. Like I said, I could certainly be reading what I am hoping to read into it.

Yes, that was something I cited as evidence in favor of my suspicion - "Shallan wasn't surprised by that, suggesting it's been the case for a while." Given that it's established that the usual dead Shardblades that Dalinar was familiar with for most of his life do not glow Radiant-style, either Adolin's Blade wasn't glowing - its being "brilliant" was due to something mundane but not otherwise described, like reflecting some bright light from within the room - or... Maya is indeed further revived than we last saw at Thaylen Fields (right after "Maya brushed his mind" after a building collapsed on him, we read that "though [Adolin] was covered in dust, she still shone bright"). And that that happened in the "skipover time" such that Shallan may even be identifying Adolin by the "brilliant Shardblade" that is cutting through the door. (Well, on top of the fact that Pattern already told her Adolin and co. were arriving, plus that they didn't likely have another Shardbearer or Radiant in his team of soldiers...)