robardin

The way the Nahel bond has been described to work, by analogy, is that the spren "fills in the cracks" in a person's soul. Which requires "cracking" the soul in the first place, with pain, conflict, doubt, etc. And each advancement in Ideal represents a further, deeper "soul cracking".

When Kaladin is struggling to reach the Third Ideal, to reconcile and to overcome his feeling that he's betrayed his Second Ideal in agreeing to stand by and let Moash proceed with his plot with Graves to murder Elhokar, he complains to Syl that she's asking too much of him, that he's not like the Radiants of old, "some glorious knight of ancient days". That he's a broken man.

And she replies, "That's what they all were, silly."

To bond different kinds of living, sentient spren at the same time seems very difficult, then. As we saw in RoW, spren can even decline to engage in an otherwise possible bond because the person is already "spoken for" by another one.

I think to do this might require some force. As in, something on the level of Crazy Unchained Ishar Doing Nahel Bond Manipulation, as he nearly did in RoW with Dalinar/SF.

From the little we know, or see characters speculating, about how "unsealed metalminds" could be constructed, you don't even need Compounding except for leveraging up the generation of stored attributes instead of it being at the normal Feruchemist storage pace/cost.

A (full) Feruchemist could shunt off Identity by filling an aluminummind, fill a metalmind (say, a goldmind for health), and fill the Investiture for for that metal (e.g., F-gold to use a goldmind) into a nicrosilmind.

At the end of it, you'd have a goldmind/nicrosil ring medallion that anyone could tap for healing, if they knew that's what it was, at the cost of having to spend time recovering from the missing health you'd stored into the goldmind.

Given that, then, obviously the most powerful (useful to society) combo would be A-gold with full Feruchemy, eh?

Unless filling a nicrosilmind with a Feruchemical ability meant you lost that power (or its full use) until/unless you tapped it back, and one would need nicrosil Compounding in order to do the Excisor Trick (since we never found out about that)?

I don't think we know how squiring works - it varies by Order, no doubt.

It is curious why neither Rlain nor Dabbid ever "went squire" to Kaladin, when every other member of Bridge Four - well, except Moash, who by then had removed himself from that reckoning - did so relatively quickly.

It's one thing for an honorspren like Riah to refuse to consider bonding Rlain for being a listener, but not even squiring?

And what's Dabbid's deal in never becoming a squire, either? Because he wouldn't speak aloud, he couldn't Speak the Words?

Is saying the First Ideal a necessary step towards squiring? It seem likely - we saw the Skybreaker squiring candidates that Szeth was a part of doing so in unison.

Does that mean all of Bridge Four (and Bridge Thirteen, before Teft reached the Third Ideal) had done so, "off-screen?" Because later, when Lopen is talking to an amputee Thaylen soldier at the end of Oathbringer about how Stormlight could heal even such a wound, advised him to do like Lyn, and just "start following us around - but you have to say the Words."

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

It was discussed more in WoK-Prime - the "big magic knights" inspiration for Roshar was about Dead Shardbearers - just as we see demonstrated by Dalinar and Adolin in WoK and WoR. 

The Knights Radiant are something else entirely. 

Prime Spoilers:

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Well, in WoK Prime, there were no Spren - So Shardbearers were all Blade and Plate with Mounts - and Surgebinders just had surges and used the same Blade and Plate as everybody else

  Reveal hidden contents

Except Maybe Taln

 

 

That makes sense, that WoK-Prime would be the work he had in mind as "backlash" against the trend of gritty, low-magic fantasy circa 1999-2002

I fear to read WoK-Prime because it might futz with my image/recollection of "actual canon" Stormlight Archive, or is that not something I should worry about (since it seems like you've read it)?

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are no real knights on Roshar, nobody is running around screaming they are knights. Lighteyes are fighting with swords and on foot, just like some are fighting with bows, others lucky ones on horsebacks, but that doesn't make them knights. Even Shardbearers aren't called knights. Knights simply don't exist on Roshar and Knights Radiants are something different.

This is basically what I'm calling out. Brandon explicitly said in multiple contexts, that he came up with this aspect of SA as "big magic knights" and that his definition specifically required a horse.

Then he puts in magic horses in his world, but it's not his Knights that are riding them!

I just think it's a funny irony the way it's worked out!

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's because you don't find and get Ryshadium, you are chosen by them. Most won't be that lucky. WoR ch 81:

Historically speaking horses weren't really used for fighting on Roshar. They are especially expensive, require special care and aren't well adapted to the Rosharan environment. The first nation to use cavalry as a fighting formation was Shinovar during their numerous invasions of Roshar, which most likely happened after Recreance, thus after the Radiant era. Therefore most Radiant would not use horses like the classical medieval knights. Even now cavalry is still very rare because of how rare and expensive horses are. In WoR ch 67 Dalinar remarks that loosing on a plateau run could easily cost more than what won gemstone would be worth.

I'm uncertain how useful Ryshadium would be for most Orders. Two of them can fly, so horses for them would be pointless and other Radiants would be Lashed by them to arrive quickly to their destination - as seen in the Starfalls vision. On a battlefield their horses would be extremely vulnerable and could expose their rider to enemy strikes when killed.. Moreover Surges are a devastating weapon to wield - Jasnah soulcasted air all around her into oil and set it on fire, which would kill her horse. Unless they somehow get a Shardplate for their horses (which should exist after Recreance if that was practiced, the lack of such horse Shardplates implies it wasn't), Radiants should not bring horses to a Surge-fight. Adolin learned this lesson the hard way. 

So while Ryshadium are called a Third Shard, I wouldn't necessarily assume that they were called that during the Radiant era. For me it seems like a modern development, rather than something carried from ancient times. I think spren fill the role of "a knight's horse" - it's not just about riding on a horse, it's about companionship, that's what spren are to their knights. 

And Kaladin hates horses. He would rather ride on a Chull than on a horse. Imagine, a graceful knight in a glowing full plate riding on an oversized crab.

I think you hit upon all the salient points, actually!

I did not remember that "cavalry was first used as a fighting formation by the Shin during one of their invasions of Roshar". However, those invasions happened in the "Era of Solitude", after Aharietiam (when nine out of ten Heralds walked off the job) but before the Recreance. (That is, including before the Recreance, it's a superset Era, I guess?)

It is true that we haven't exactly seen any Radiants pining for some kind of big horsey transport. Kaladin and Szeth can fly, Jasnah can Elsecall (though she hasn't done that very much), they have Oathgates, and so on...

"Classical" Radiants had Oathgates, too (I wonder when they were established?) so I think you're spot on in saying calling the Rhyshadium "the third Shard" is something post-Recreance, when having Shardblade and Shardplate were no longer Radiant attributes but more like "the perfectly equipped warrior".

However, given Brandon's comments about the inspiration for Roshar, a full set of Shards matching what he considers a "proper knight" being kitted out with, and the so-called "Knights Radiant" of Roshar, ... shouldn't that last term imply that a "Knight Radiant" ought to have all of what a "knight" should have?

It's not like the term "Knight Radiant" is a "backronym" of sorts from the later Vorin era, i.e., having full set of Shards including the Mount = "knight", in the past Shards were wielded by Radiants, thus they were "Knights Radiant".

Because when Shallan draws in Stormlight in the presence of the "madman" who is actually Taln the Herald in WoR Ch. 63, he exclaims, "One of Ishar's Knights... I remember... He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk."

As for a Rhyshadium choosing its bondmate/rider, it occurs to me that maybe having a Nahel bond to a sentient spren might actually block forming a similar bond with a Rhyshadium, like trying to fit two plugs into the same outlet. Though the reverse case hasn't prevented Dalinar from bonding the Stormfather, so maybe that's not how it (doesn't) work.

I think I read a WoB or interview with Brandon somewhere, where he described his fleshing out the world of Roshar and the Knights Radiant as a kind of backlash to the trend in epic fantasy in the early-mid 2000s to being "gritty and low-magic" (adding that he tried his hand at it and soon gave it up, stating, "you do not want to read Brandon Sanderson's gritty, low-magic fantasy", or something like that).

So he went completely the other way. "Low magic? How about two, maybe THREE magic systems, with TEN surges, and resonances! And magic knights, in glowing magic armor! Summoning giant glowing magic swords, and riding magic horses! And some of them can FLY!"

Because of course, a "Knight" needs all three of those things, right? And they're even referred to as "the Third Shard" by Adolin when he's missing his Surefoot (killed by a stormform singer at The Battle of Narak) in Oathbringer, completing the set of "Blade, Plate, and Mount".

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where did you get your ideas for knights?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A knight has a sword, armor and a horse.

Words of Radiance Scottsdale signing (March 14, 2014)

And yet, we've only seen two Rhyshadium (Rhyshadiums? Rhyshadia?) "on-screen" in Stormlight, Dalinar's Gallant and Adolin's deceased Surefoot.

The Coppermind Wiki logs two highprinces who are mentioned in passing as having unnamed Rhyshadium in WoR and OB, neither of who are "on-screen" with them either.

More curiously to me, we haven't seen any of the by now numerous Knights Radiant of Dalinar's generation bond one. Not even Jasnah or Kaladin!

Is that because the region of Roshar (the western plains?) that their herds are found are currently under Odium's control?

I'm sure Kaladin has been really busy, too busy to go find a horse, plus he was never all that comfortable with the idea of riding one in WoR. And as for Jasnah, if Dalinar and Adolin found the time to go out and bond one, why not her? (I guess because it's a form of the Vorin art of War, and thus restricted to men?)

(For that matter, did Gavilar not have a Rhyshadium?)

I tell you what, if Renarin's vision does end up being an accurate image of Future Moash, his redemption arc to becoming a Windrunner after all he's done (including killing Jezrien, the patron Herald of Windrunners, and then wielding his Honorblade in Odium's service!), will either be the best or worst thing ever written in the annals of Epic Fantasy  

17 hours ago, Returned said:

The image Renarin made isn't a gold shadow or malatium shadow, so it's not like Vin seeing the happy Terrisman Rashek might have been. Renarin's projections (Lightweavings, properly?) show the best possible version of their subjects, probably mediated by Renarin's perceptions or ideas. That's what happened to Adolin in the paddock. So the image of Moash isn't what an alternate path through life might have made him but rather is the best version of him that could exist.

I don't think that there is a point of no return in any mechanical sense (like as might relate to a Radiant bond). The whole concept of Radiance is of improvement, that it's never too late to be a better person than you were. The most important step a person can take is the next one.

The problem with Moash isn't that he made the wrong choice at some key point in the flow of events on Roshar, it's that he keeps making the wrong choices in ways that indulge and reinforce the personal feelings that have broken him (or that he perceives that way, I guess). It's not even so much the wrong choices themselves. For example, had Kaladin's genuine perspective been different he might have been compelled to kill Elhokar. But his uncertainty about what the right thing to do was, and even more his struggle to examine his options and himself to figure out what was right, led him to commit to mutually exclusive, opposed tasks at the same time. He knew that at least one thing he was doing was a betrayal of his beliefs and oaths, which cost him dearly. But when he had reflected enough to understand what was right (from his perspective and congruent with his character) he became more Radiant than ever.

Moash can't face what it would mean for the right choices to actually be right, in the sense that he obviously should choose them for moral/practical/whatever reasons, so he keeps making decisions that he can't really justify and guarantees that he cannot grow as a person in the way Radiance provides. It's telling that he needs Odium's constant, numbing influence while other bad people (like the Sadeases, Mr. and Mrs.) never did. Moash hasn't reached a point of no return and, until his own permanent death, never will. He chooses, every day, to be who and what he is. Vyre is a dead end, but not something that Moash cannot turn away from.

Agree 100% that the theme of Radiance is that nobody is too far gone to "come back", and that what's derailed Moash has been... Moash. And the theme of "giving your pain to Odium" as a shield/crutch against the pangs of conscience, is that it holds you back from growth and genuine change.

But, that wasn't quite what I meant by PoNR - not that Moash "cannot have a redemption arc", no character is beyond that. I meant in the context of "Moash being the source of what's holding Moash back from being Full Bridge Four", as a Windrunner, as depicted in Renarin's vision/projection.

Up until the point he ACTUALLY killed Elhokar, in front of Kaladin, I think he could have convinced himself "OK, I messed up, but I can still make it right with Kal and the others", and been right. He would have explored the very limits of the Second and Third Ideals of the Windrunners, and come down on the side of choosing the "right" side (for an honorspren).

As for the mechanics of that projected image of him in Hearthstone - I do think it is very much akin to a malatium shadow in Mistborn (reminder, this is the Stormlight forum, BTW). With Adolin in the paddock, he saw an image of himself "perfected, ... somehow complete and whole, the man he could be". But with Moash, the filmy image of him that stepped towards the light - the Windrunner one - that was the perfect version of Moash that could have been.

("And who knows? Perhaps it is the him that would have been.")

Because even Kaladin can no longer forgive him after that meeting in Hearthstone, much less after killing Teft and several other unconscious Radiants later, that's for sure.

Finally, I don't think Kaladin could ever have had a perspective that "compelled him to kill Elhokar" and still retained his bond with Syl/been a Windrunner. As Syl herself said when he was thinking it'd be best for Elhokar to be eliminated, to let Elhokar be assassinated with his knowledge, "You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin... You're not supposed to be like this."

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." = Better not be killing unconscious, bound, or oblivious people who trust you with their life, or letting them die on your watch with your approval.

11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I really dont think Moash's PoNR was killing Elhokar, I think it was killing Kaladin.  In WoR, it wasnt just an assault, he caved in Kaladin's chest with the force-amplified strength of the Shardplate Kaladin had given him, and it would have been lethal if he hadnt managed to repair his Bond.  It may have taken Kaladin longer to come around (not surprising given the nature of the Windrunner Oaths regarding those they Hate), but I think Moash's Choice to kill Kaladin was the point he internalized it in his own mind and soul, and the rest since has just been him dealing with (or running from) the fallout.  

I agree that was the PoNR from the POV of Moash internalizing it as such ("Kaladin. He'd tried to kill Kaladin. ... Storms. He should throw himself into the fire", he thinks to himself as he sits around in a daze with Graves and other Diagrammers fleeing the warcamps).

And of course, that counts for more than anything else.

But, I don't think that was actually as PoNR as he thought it was. Dalinar had done as bad, or worse, in his youth, that he looks back on with great regret, shame, or even horror.

And if intent counted for anything, Moash (I believe truthfully) said he hadn't meant to punch Kaladin as hard as he did - he wasn't accustomed to the strength lent by Shardplate, nor used to dealing with a de-powered Kaladin.

Basically what I'm saying is, the "alternate Moash" we saw in Renarin's vision, didn't have to be one that never pursued the plot against Elhokar, or even one that gave it up when Kaladin stressed that "we can't be this kind of men".

I think that, had he found a way to do it, when he came out with Khen and the other singers who knew Kaladin at Kholinar, facing off against Skar and Drehy, finding Kaladin locked up in the battle and pleading for everyone to just. Stop. FIGHTING, ... if instead of pushing his way to the front to finish off a fallen Elhokar, he had instead pulled his squad of singers back and tried to stop everything, ...

...he maybe could still have left with Bridge Four and been pardoned. We'll never know, though, because that's not what happened.

Without getting into yet another discussion/debate over Moash's various acts or decisions in Stormlight 1-4, I wanted to bring up something specific.

When he is feeding Kaladin's depression in Hearthstone (after killing two bound and captive villagers Kaladin had grown up with, and then Roshone, in front of him), he is interrupted by Renarin's arrival, including a glowing light in which a filmy vision/version of himself is visible: standing tall in a Bridge Four coat, protecting people, eyes burning Windrunner blue as a Shardspear formed in his hand...

This vision breaks through Odium's shielding him from "his pain", causing him to flee.

So obviously, "in another life", Moash (like most of the rest of Bridge Four) would have first squired to Kaladin, then bonded an honorspren.

At what point was that version of Moash rendered impossible? (Assuming it still impossible, after all he's done?)

Had he been persuaded by Kaladin's speech about "come with me and we will get justice against the right man, Roshone" when he and Graves confronted a wounded Kaladin over an unconscious Elhokar at the end of WoR, and stood with him against Graves (another full Shardbearer), would that have still enabled Kaladin to find the Third Ideal?

Or even, after physically attacking Kaladin, once Kaladin swore the Third Ideal, causing Graves to flee... Could Moash still have laid down his Shards then, begged Kal's forgiveness, and remained in Bridge Four and on the path to squiredom and bonding an honorspren? Instead of running off with Graves?

As for Moash's betrayal of Bridge Four's duty - as he pointed out, Kaladin had done the same. And as for the personal betrayal in assaulting Kaladin, well, had he not gone further and further down that road, I think even that was not the final turning point.

It's noteworthy that Kaladin did not tell Bridge Four of Moash's actions for some time afterward, and even still referred to him as "my friend" when punching Roshone in the face when he went to Hearthstone after the Everstorm, in Oathbringer.

And as Rock said about Rlain, who named himself a traitor, "Ha! Is little problem. Can be fixed."

I think the problem is that, as with Amaram, the man who cannot forgive himself for that betrayal... Is himself.

Killing Elhokar in Kholinar, who was clearly allied with Kaladin, and while backed by a squad of singers, ... I think that may have been the PoNR. 

GUYS GUYS I THINK I FOUND BA-ADO-MISHRAM

3 hours ago, Duxredux said:

... the bland descriptive "Full Compounder". We've started saying Full Feruchemist as we now use Feruchemist for anyone with Feruchemical abilities and to distinguish from Ferrings. Right now, Compounding has its own article on Coppermind and specifies using Allomancy to enhance Feruchemy. I think people intuitively know what a Gold Compounder or Steel Compounder does, so Full Compounder feels like it would be similarly intuitive, but almost by definition the person who thought of the name shouldn't be used to determine if it's intuitive or not.

Well, say "Full Compounder" out loud.

Now say it faster. And faster. And faster.

Full Compounder.

F'l C'mpounder.

F'l'c'p'nder.

...Flounder?

7 minutes ago, Zrogezrg said:

@alder24Yes, sorry for spreading bad information. Somehow I internalised that Hoid is tapping Fortune using Feruchemy.

However, it is not that he did not gained the ability, it is he tried and it is unknown whether he succeeded as per WoB you mentioned.

It's definitely a RAFO scenario, but the fact is, a Feruchemical chromiummind is the only Cosmere magic we've seen so far to explicitly work with Fortune.

I have to say, the "motto" of the Stonewards, "I will be there when needed", sounds pretty similar to what literally moves Hoid, who said to Dalinar after the latter gave him food for thought on the nature of unity in Ch. 67 of Words of Radiance:

Quote

Wit nodded, looking thoughtful. "I need to read that book of yours again, it seems. I wanted to warn you, however. I'll be leaving soon."

"Leave?" Dalinar said. "You only just arrived."

"I know. It's incredibly frustrating, I must admit. I have discovered a place that I must be, though to be honest I'm not exactly sure why I need to be there. This doesn't always work as well as I'd like it to."

I mean, on the face of it, how could a Stoneward promise to "be there when needed" if they weren't usually where they needed to be already, when needed?

39 minutes ago, Elite01 said:

I wonder if any of the feruchemist spiritual abilities would help with this. In a weird way maybe someone who had stored identity could tap it to become "more" terris and then have a higher chance of having ferrings as children. I could also see a nicrosil ferring maybe being able to help with this because they can do stuff with investiture but we haven't seen much of what those abilities can do. 

You touch on one interesting question we have no answer to: why is/was Feruchemy specifically linked with the Terrisfolk?

Was it a case of Feruchemists being clannish from way back, or other some kind of Act of Shard (or Hoid) to trigger it?

After all, before Rashek's Ascension and the first round of mistsnapping / lerasium beads causing Allomancy to arise more in the general population, Feruchemy was "even more common than Mistings" at the end of the Final Empire among the pre-Ascension Terrisfolk.

Is it due to some extra Connection, along with other things, at the time of a person's conception? Could be... But, Connection to what?

On 3/8/2024 at 9:08 PM, Treamayne said:

Just to be fair, Mistborn was TLR's term because he knew the truth:

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The Beads of Lerasium are Preservation's power - The Mists are Preservation's power...

Mistborn is a partially obscured reference to "born with the hereditary power of the Beads" since Beads and Mist are fundamentally the same. 
(and Beadborn sounds silly)

Truth obscured through lateral references to build his Steel Ministry from the early days.

The only explanation for the term "Mistborn" in-world came from the scant history of those early years recorded Sazed's metalminds, that the earliest Allomancers appeared "with the mists" (the mistsnapping that began happening as the Well of Ascension drew close to filling, as described by Alendi's logbook, and as witnessed by Sazed even before Ruin was released).

It's not a term that TLR created/promoted with the Steel Ministry, though they did readily use it. The term that appears to be Rashek's invention with his Ministry is "Allomancy", and a wielder of it an "Allomancer", as the Inquisition's mission is to seek out and brutally punish "crimes against Allomancy" as blasphemy (which is not limited to hunting down illegal half-bred skaa Allomancers, it also included punishing nobles who abuse it, like by using it to try to influence an obligator).

For all we know, that word is derived from his having "allocated" the beads of lerasium to his original key followers!

It does appear the origin of the powers with ingesting a bead of metal was successfully suppressed; I guess the original kings were told to say they were "given the divine power by The Lord Ruler, who is God Himself, and surpasses even us in might", as a way to kickstart the Steel Ministry as a true religion with tangible proof of real power.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't see any problem with the name Fullborn, it's catchy, easy to say, easy to understand - we still call Eland a Mistborn even though he wasn't born a Mistborn, so why is there a problem with Rashek being a Fullborn? It's the shortened version of a Full Metalborn.

God? Nope, let's not go in that way again.

 

 

Ok, just hear me out - Allpounder!

The only downside is, "Mistborn" is a term used in-world, and while "wrong" (Mistborn were not, in fact, "born" from the mists - if anything, some subset of Mistings were "mistsnapped" into existence), it's because they were all either TLR or part of his crew of ten (?) lerasium ingestors that emerged out of nowhere after "the mists receded" (aka the "Deepness was defeated") and oh yeah, the sun went red, the continents moved around, ash filled the sky, little stuff like that.

As far as the people of that time could tell, they were indeed "born" from the mists, as if the mists disappeared as part of the reason all those things happened. (Which was not, in fact, untrue, but with A Lot More to That Story Than They Knew About.)

And then later, the term carried over to describe their descendants with the same powerset. The ones that appeared after a few generations with only access to a single metal got a diminutive term.

OTOH the term "Fullborn" is not used in-world on Scadrial, and is unlikely to be the term they would come up with in-world. The only context they have for such a thing is Rashek TLR. Even when wielding or referring to using the Bands, someone like Wax or Edwarn doesn't say "and you will be as a Fullborn", rather that they would be "like the Lord Ruler".

It's also why they immediately assumed "The Sovereign" who Allik tells them created the Bands, and must have been someone who had "both powers for all sixteen metals in one person", must have been TLR who somehow survived or reincarnated in the South. They don't say "Wow, another Fullborn popped up down there?!".

I have no problem using "Fullborn" on a fan message board, there's a lot of history/tradition of that here already that I'm not suggesting we throw out. But I also think it's fun to consider what a Kelsier, Khriss, or Harmony might come up with as a term for it.

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

@robardin, @Zapata, and @Returned brought this up a bit in a different thread, but I thought it’d be a fun thing to discuss. What would you call Fullborn if it was up to you? I’m leaning towards Metalborn or Full Metalborn, but I could get on board with Omnimetal, Omniborn, or God. I’m heavily against Mistemist and 32Born. Any other ideas?

32Born??? That's a new one to me, LOL.

9 hours ago, Returned said:

Fullmetal? It's already the name of a famous anime and manga series, and means something like "stubborn" in Japanese, but it gets the basic ideas across...

Yeah, it's "taken", I would say, otherwise kind of perfect.

My comment was that stacking multiple metals with both Metalborn powers and enabling Compounding, on shared metals, without Hemalurgy or some external device like the Bands, is something we've only seen achieved in Rashek. So maybe we may as well name it after him.

Not quite "Ascension" but becoming a "Rasheki"? After all, when Vin and Elend started to see Inquisitors with new spikes for Feruchemy in HoA, they refer to them as like fighting "another Lord Ruler".

22 minutes ago, Returned said:

"Fullborn" is just the word for the thing it represents. I don't think it's meant to be etymologically decomposed any more than "Mistborn" is-- they were never borne of the mists! And Mistings would have the same claim to the word.

I do agree that it gives the impression of something that it isn't (full of all of two sets of powers by birth), but I treat it more as an idiomatic word than a deceptive affront.

OK, that's fair - "Mistborn" is the in-world term for the most powerful Allomancers, dating back to the original ten lerasium ingesters (plus TLR) who all appeared after the mists (the "Deepness") had receded, and the entire planet had suddenly and completely changed topologically and ecologically.

At the same time, I think "Fullborn" is, despite its frequent use in this forum, a fan term and not canonical? Like, does the word ever occur in any published Cosmere work, including Khriss' Ars Arcana notes?

It's a useful fan term, one I have used and will use for it, not saying it isn't, and I know there are WoBs where Brandon responds to and uses the term freely.

Still, if it were up to me to coin a term for an OP mashup of a Mistborn and Feruchemist, it'd have been Mistferaku or something like that, LOL

I would think that a Princess of Alethkar, sister to the King, departing Kharbranth after so long a residency, would be Big News.

And thus, the direction and manner of her travel not so hard to find out?

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Couternitpick:

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No, because no "something else" pretending to be the Stormfather would be able to sense a Herald's death and return to Braize (as evident from WoK Prelude). Only someone that is the remnant of Honor, someone strongly Connected to the largest pieces of Honor, someone that is Honor's Cognitive Shadow would be able to feel that. And that someone is the real Stormfather. There is a whole big and spicy topic about it here.

Either way it is just a nitpick that doesn't really matter, with or without the Stormfaker, a Herald died in the suspiciously similar timeframe to Shallan's mother. 

 

Yeah, that discussion should be taken to another thread.

For the record - I am well aware that there were indeed multiple, long threads on that topic that erupted after the SA5 Prologue was read/documented in the Arcanum, I participated in at least one of them, and remain unmoved in my convictions!

The very term "Fullborn" is questionable (where does it even come from?), as there has literally never been anbody BORN with both (full) Feruchemy and Allomancy (Mistborn).

In all of Scadrian history, there has only ever been one way to be a full Feruchemist - to be born one, as an appropriately sDNA'ed Terris person.

And, generally, only one way to be a Mistborn instead of a Misting, and that's to ingest a lerasium bead, or to be descended from someone who did.

...or to be Rashek, who was already a Feruchemist, and directly modified his Spiritweb with the power of Preservation while Ascended, to stack on Allomancy beyond the power level of even a lerasium Mistborn.

Prior to this "direct injection of Preservation's power", Allomancy occurred rarely but naturally in the Scadrian population, or by mistsnapping in two periods separated by 1024 years, but only as Mistings (for one metal).

By contrast, until the Catacendre and the elimination of all living Feruchemists (through Ruin's harvesting, the death of Tindwyl, and the Ascension of Sazed), all Feruchemists were "full" Feruchemists. You were either one, or were not.

Ferrings and Twinborn (with just one metal's Feruchemy) exist post-Catacendre specifically due to the admixture of the genes for Feruchemy and Allomancy.

There aren't even any "natural born Mistborn" on Scadrial in Era 2, since the passing of Spook/Lestibournes, was also "twiddled" by divine intervention (Harmony) to upgrade from Tineye to becoming the Lord Mistborn.

It's very, very unlikely, but eventually another Mistborn could be born (probably descended from Spook) - and apparently will be, for the Era 3 storylines (just one person, after like 300 years).

It's very, very unlikely, but eventually a full Feruchemist could arise in the Terris Village. But it wouldn't likely be from Ferring stock, as that would include Allomancy genes. Their "breeding for a full Feruchemist" would have to be seeing who the "pure Terris" ancestors were of a Ferring, and matching them up with other people like that.

To create another living Lord Ruler type person, with both Feruchemy and Allomancy for all metals in one person, without equipment, would require some level of "divine injection": either a recreated Full Feruchemist who ingests lerasium, or some Act of Harmony that massively upgrades someone directly.

Marsh is the closest thing to a "Fullborn" these days, what with all his spikes for metals of many of both powers, and a "classical" ability to Compound with hemalurgically derived powers that appears to have been lost in Era 2.

On 2/24/2024 at 3:27 PM, alder24 said:

Have you read SA 5 Prologue?

  Reveal hidden contents

The Stormfather did feel a Herald dying and returning to Braize just before Gavilar was assassinated. The timeline fits, Shallan killed her mother in the same timeframe as Gavilar was killed - 6 years before WoR. We also have only two Heralds unaccounted for - Chana and Vedel. One of them has to be the one that was killed because we know where the rest of them are in the meantime. 

I personally believe that Vedel is Liss, the assassin Jasnah was talking to just before Gavilar was assassinated. There is something fishy about her, in one of the WoB Brandon behaved very suspiciously when asked if she was a Herald (this one, just listen to the audio) and it fits that Vedel's madness would push her in that direction - from a healer to a killer. That leaves out only Chana, who was seen at least once in books (WoB) - Shallan. Everything fits, it's too important that Shallan killed her mother at the same time as Gavilar was killed. 

 

 

Nitpick: that really, definitely

On 2/27/2024 at 3:09 AM, Ianastor01 said:

That sounds like something he would do, but it's strange to me that Kelsier didn't mention it to Vin, or that TLR never showed up .

I like to think that TLR would show up in a mask at random balls, turning off his mega-Soothing while claiming to be a Lord... uh, Shekar from some outer Dominance, and everybody would have to pretend to be fooled.

Except for that one guy who actually was fooled, and acted/talked badly around him like he was some bumpkin nobleman he'd never seen or heard of before, and made fun of his unusual accent.

Everybody waited to see the guy get wasted, but instead they became great friends, because Rashek found he liked that could actually be himself around that guy - go hiking, jam with him while playing the flute, etc., ...Until eventually the secrets came out that tore them apart.

It was over a woman, of course.

Her name was Lutha. She lived on the second floor.

Lezian himself wondered why he was reborn so quickly, in a way that Odium (Rayse) had discontinued - "I was on Braize for barely a day before I felt the pull" - only to be told things were Under New Management and the new Odium had "made an exception".

If he had spent a day on Braize ("barely a day" is not "less than a day"), then this interlude is happening one day after Lezian was killed by Kaladin.

And then, El tells him: "When we said we did not want to have to wait for your rebirth [via the next Everstorm], it was not your convenience that troubled us, but mine. I am very curious, you see, and you were the sole appropriate subject."

El speaks there in the first person, not first person plural, as he did initially. The "we" in "we did not want to have to wait [for the Everstorm]" is El and Odium, but this test is for El's curiosity and convenience, not Odium's.

What's the rush? Well, the obvious thing is: the Contest of Champions. It will occur in ten days after Taravangian's Ascension - which happened on the same day as Navani's bonding the Sibling and Kaladin swearing the Fourth Ideal, right? So if it's the next day, the Contest is now nine days away. Maybe less, since the time was set "at the tenth hour", and who knows what time of day it is in this scene.

The Everstorm occurs in roughly nine-day intervals. Though Odium can speed this cycle up, I think, that probably has some limitations, like maybe the current Everstorm is still going around Roshar and has only just passed Urithiru.

Whatever made Lezian "the sole appropriate subject" for the test in El's consideration, he wanted it done and confirmed before then.