robardin

We also have a potential Returned-ception-ee who was killed not only without giving up the Divine Breath, but even with a wealth of normal Breaths... In Denth. Who probably has not fulfilled why he came back all those long years earlier.

Ah, awesome! A WoB that directly addresses my exact question about how "The Balance" could have been implemented while Rashek was Temporarily Ascendant, enSlivered if you will, when he hadn't yet created the nobility's association with Allomancy via the lerasium nuggets yet. The reason I was confused is that there is a chapter heading discussion of this in HoA, where the headings are (I thought) revealed at the end to be the writings of Sazed left behind after he Double Ascended, so you'd think he would know, and also not have a reason to lie. This is the heading to Chapter 25 of "The Hero of Ages": So integrating the two statements together, it still makes sense: While Ascendant, already intending to create a unified Empire with a regimented and stratified society, he separated out the intended ruling classes (nobility) - presumably mostly the incumbent leaders he'd try to recruit, except for those Khlenni bastards - from lower classes (skaa) with slight physiological tweaks, at the same time as pushing out the mandatory LivingWithAsh.MSP patch to all people. He may, or may not, have also further adjusted the Allomantic potential in humans while applying the Balancing algorithm to mankind, but in any case he couldn't dial skaa down to zero, because that comes from the essential spark of Preservation inherent in all Scadrians (Scadrialites?). He later doled out the lerasium nuggets to key world leaders to cement them as allies, turning them into powerful Mistborn, and establishing their noble Houses as having strong Allomantic potential. Even later, he established his interbreeding laws to keep the number of skaa Allomancers - especially skaa Mistborn - as close to zero as possible. Enforcing those laws would have been difficult at the beginning, before his Steel Ministry and armies of obligators were a part of all (Northern) societies, not to mention how long it took before he could create Inquisitors with hemalurgy. So there was probably significant noble/skaa interbreeding right from the start, that always continued on to some degree, especially since the Inquisitors would only really get involved if "half-breed" Allomancers popped up that weren't successfully passed off as nobility. Lord Cett admitted his House was long ago "corrupted" by skaa interbreeding, because known skaa showing Allomancy was a trigger, but not nobility lacking it.

It's not really hacking to feruchemically store body heat while sitting next to a fire, any more than a Subsumer storing excess calories in a bendalloymind after eating a big meal is. You're simply boosting or replacing your original native attribute while filling the metalmind. It's something even normal humans routinely end up with extra of. One couldn't do this with every attribute, of course. In fact, those may be the only two (known).

Well, what about TenSoon going around with OreSeur's Blessings on top of his own? He still had them at the time of the Catacendre, and there's no reason to suspect he's given them up in Era 2, right?

This is what I used to think, except that we see (albeit in Era 2, in The Bands of Mourning) that kandra spikes are specific to the kandra - ReLuur had one of his two spikes taken from him and was no longer lucid, and just giving him another kandra's spike to make up the complement didn't work. And later, it seems that MeLaan needed her specific original spikes restored to her by Wayne to become MeLaan again - it's not clear that any other spikes, even ones from another kandra, would have done the same. I guess the initial "release" of the blockage from mistwraith to kandra establishes a kind of connection/identity thing (maybe with capital C and I) binding that person's "kandraness" to the spikes that caused it. Speaking of Mistborn Era 2 - are mistwraiths confirmed to still exist? There are no new kandra, that's definitely been mentioned, because Harmony is against killing people to make new Blessings spikes; but wouldn't that condemn all mistwraiths to non-sentience, forever? Also bad. Especially when it's in his power, one would assume, to "un-mistwraith" them. For that matter, of the kandra that do still survive, one of them mentioned that "most of the Second and Third Generations" have done the suicide thing by Era 2, for reasons unknown. But there is no mention of the First Generation. Did Harmony restore them to humanity, since unlike later generations, they were originally human?

I recently re-read the Mistborn Era 1 trilogy again - one of my favorite re-reads - and figured the time was right to ask a few questions that have been at the back of my mind for a while. There are probably earlier discussions on at least some of these topics, feel free to just link me to any WoBs or prior threads, but a perusal of the Coppermind didn't turn anything like this up. So at the Well of Ascension, Rashek held the power of Preservation for "only a few moments" - but was able to do a lot in that time, because of the whole Sliver of God thing. He repositioned the planet, created the ashmounts, turned plants brown, changed human physiology (to be able to digest the plants, but also wiring in "The Balance" between nobility and skaa), and created an unspecified number of nuggets of lerasium that would turn ordinary humans into Mistborn a la Eland, while keeping two of them in reserve next to the Well, and rewrote his "Spritual DNA" to be Mega-Mistborn even beyond the level of a "Gen 1 Lerasium" Mistborn. He also learned about Hemalurgy, and "created" koloss, kandra, and Inquisitors - in the case of the kandra, by first turning every other living Feruchemist into a mistwraith, after contracting with his ten Feruchemical packmen buddies that they'd get to become immortal kandra in return for their humanity. So, what I've been wondering about: #1 - The Balance between nobility and skaa. How could he have done this while holding the Power, seeing as how it then took him another hundred plus years to conquer the world? Who did he identify as "nobility"? Did he overweight nobility with Essence of Preservation (versus skaa) as well, to isolate Allomantic ability to them as much as possible? I'm assuming he made almost everybody he aimed to later conquer "inherently skaa"; and then, after emerging from the Well, gave lerasium nuggets to key "nobles" to win them over to support him. #2 - The creation of the First Generation of kandra. He returned sentience to his ten friends by giving them Blessings, which are hemalurgic spikes. But, that means he had to kill 20 people to create the spikes in the first place - physically, with spikes through their hearts, and after being done with the Power, since he surely couldn't have used the power of Preservation to do it instantaneously. So where did he keep their sentience - their souls, if you will - in the interim? I guess because they agreed to become kandra, he was able to create some kind of Boarding Zone in the Cognitive Realm for them to chill out in while he made spikes to host them with? Similarly, when Yomen mentions that Church doctrine holds that there were "sixteen original Inquisitors" - they had to have been created one at a time, and well after he gave up the Power, right? He couldn't have used Preservation's power to create spikes? #3 - The Terris Prophecies' description of The Hero of Ages. When giving Sazed a lift to the Homeland, TenSoon mentions that the Hero of Ages is prophesized to "lead an army of Allomancers to the Homeland" to "save all of us - kandra, humans, koloss, and Inquisitor". But most of that only exists after the Ascension, so this part of the prophecy must have been added in later by the First Generation. Who would have told them this, whose word they would accept as equal to the pre-Ascension holy words? Maybe Rashek, who glimpsed a vision of When Ruin Returns while holding the power, yet evidently still thought of himself as the Hero of Ages (as he wrote on the steel plate at Fadrex City). But then, wouldn't he just have told them, "*I*" will lead an army of Allomancers, versus "The Hero of Ages"? Maybe Hoid, who's implied somewhere to be involved with the original Terris Prophecies?

Burning a metalmind might be similar to eating a Tootsie Pop, where the feruchemical store in the metalmind can be "burned around" if it's not completely saturated. Literally. The mass of the metalmind limits how much you can store in it, which suggests some kind of actual physical limitation, and it's been stated by Brandon that two Feruchemists could store in the same metalmind - it'd just end up "compartmentalized" between the two stores in the same object. But if one could burn up the metalmind completely without releasing the feruchemical investiture, that feels wrong too, since isn't Allomancy of Preservation, and that feels like a "net loss" of Investiture? In other words, I'm thinking Vin's experiment with burning Sazed's little earring stud pewtermind (that was not completely full) should have resulted in her pooping out an even tinier bit of pewter that Sazed could have tapped out to retrieve his stored strength. (Ew.) Is there then an Allomantic equivalent to "tasting" the feruchemical store in the metal and then to instinctively be able to "burn around it", or would it take training?

But is the "need to be aware it's there to use" a requirement to access the investiture in an unkeyed metalmind in general, or a requirement to tap a nicrosilmind specifically? The part where Wax is only able to access the coppermind in the coin at the end of BoM is ambiguous. He'd handled and examined the coin in detail before, but only after he'd been introduced to the idea of the medallions did he notice the coin was copper and possibly nicrosil, and thought to himself "maybe this worked like a medallion" -- at which point "as soon as he thought of it - as soon as he knew what it might do - the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap [F-copper, the ability to tap the coppermind - a "store" of that Ferring-ness that would dwindle with use]". The way I read it is that where "tapping" a metalmind usually involves intent on the part of the Feruchemist, that intent is conveyed as a component of the "spiritual connection" mentioned in that WoB you quoted how a "spiked Miles" who'd had F-gold stolen from him could still Allomantically burn his goldminds from earlier for healing. And a "spiritual connection" is linked to identity. But for an unkeyed metalmind, maybe it latches on purely to intent to form the connection? (Which is different, I guess, from the "Connection" that allows for "translation to locally predominant language" medallions to work?) Anyway, that's veering off into a different topic of "how do the medallions work, exactly?" - maybe a simpler way to boil this particular question down would be: could a Compounder burn his/her own metalmind as an ordinary allomantic metal without "using" the feruchemical store? (If we assume that an "unkeyed" metalmind for an Allomancer of that metal is essentially equivalent to a Twinborn Compounder or Fullborn using their own metalmind); and, if so, would it take a special action to avoid Compounding, or a special action to do the Compounding?

Ah, but my point was that a Misting may not need a medallion to Compound. The technology behind whatever creates the medallions, that can create unkeyed metalminds (and which the Set apparently already had, even before discovering the existence of medallions), is all you need, because Compounding is the act of allomantically burning a metal with a feruchemical store of an attribute, resulting in a 10x release of that attribute. Normally, you'd need to be a Feruchemist both to access the metalmind (identity restriction) and to tap it (to use the stored attribute). We've seen Vin be able to burn Sazed's pewtermind as ordinary pewter, while sensing something else there that she couldn't access, which Sazed explained as being the same reason that another Feruchemist couldn't tap his pewtermind, either - the identity restriction. We've seen that unkeyed metalminds mean any Feruchemist with the ability to do so can tap them for the stored attribute. So, was Vin's inability to access Sazed's metalmind via Allomancy ONLY because of the identity issue, or ALSO because she wasn't able to touch it Feruchemically? Because the identity issue is now removable.

I am not so sure. I thought the part where one had to recognize an unkeyed metalmind in order to tap it, as per the medallions or the "coppermind coin" that Hoid flipped to Wax, was part of being able to use the unkeyed nicrosilmind that granted one the Feruchemical ability to tap the other metalmind (i.e., the nicrosil ring in the coin that granted F-copper so Wax could then tap the unkeyed coppermind - he had to realize the nicrosil ring was a nicrosilmind that would give him F-copper for it to do so). But when Wayne picked up the unkeyed goldmind, as someone who already had F-gold natively, he recognized it as such right away - "Maaaate, it's someone else's goldmind, but I can use it." I think the right scene to compare it to would be when Vin tries to burn one of Sazed's metalminds, and senses something additional there (the Investiture) that she can't access, due to Sazed's Identity being associated with it. But a Misting who tried to burn an unkeyed metalmind wouldn't have that barrier. The only question is, would it even be possible to burn an unkeyed metalmind, and NOT release the Investiture therein, or to burn it with the embedded Investiture and NOT have it Compound? I can see how it might be the case that "unavoidable Compounding is not a thing", but I can also totally see how it WOULD be a thing.

"Gratuitous" is a subjective thing, but yeah, a lot of the stylistic elements of anime intentionally cater to exaggeration. That said, anime-style "super power levels" and "final forms" is EXACTLY what I picture when Vin inhales the mists, or when Elend does the duralmin-atium-superflare thing. Even more so if you cross over to Stormlight Archive, what with Kaladin's swearing the Second and Third Ideals, or in Oathbringer, when Dalinar finally UNITES THEM. (no spoilers!), or in Elantris, when Raoden does his "software patch" (not a spoiler either, I hope!).

In Mistborn Era 1, we see Mistborn like Vin and Elend discovering Allomantic duralumin (mega-bursts and uses up all reserves for other metals being burned with it). Vin, who is not as strong an Allomancer as the lerasium-created Elend, needs to use a duralumin stack to Soothe or Riot strongly enough to take control of koloss or kandra, where Elend does not. And when Elend uses duralumin, hoo boy. Either way, it "levels up" what the Allomancer could do with that metal even at maximum flare. We are introduced to Leechers and Nicrobursts in Era 2, as chromium and its alloy nicrosil were only discovered after the Catacendre. They are the "external" versions of aluminum and duralumin, where the Mistings of those metals can drain another Allomancer of metal reserves, or do the bursty-stacky thing to someone else. Given the "leveling up" effect we saw in Era 1, and the asbsence of any natural Mistborn in Era 2, you'd think Nicrobursts would be in VERY high demand (especially in the constabulary forces that Marasi is a part of). Somehow we haven't seen one yet in any of the three Era 2 books, though we have seen Leechers (the guy on the train who uses the ettmetal cube as a "Leecher grenade", and Edwarn/Suit having stolen the ability through hemalurgy). But they should be exactly as common as Leechers, or as any other type of Misting (they're all equally common, right? Including the unfortunate "Allomantic gnats"?). Furthermore, the Ars Arcanum entry on nicrobursting mentions that "this can cause issues with metals such as tin, where the mental overload can cause unconsciousness". Also sounds like fun. I'd really like to start seeing both of these uses happen: the "stacking" and the "disrupting" aspects of nicrobursting! And, might there be any extended uses of A-nicrosil? Nicrobursting and Compounding. While ultra-rare, Compounding Twinborn like Miles (gold/gold) do exist, who can burn their own metalminds for a 10x return on the Feruchemical attribute stored therein. And it stands to reason that following the discovery of "unkeyed" metalminds as of "The Bands of Mourning", even ordinary Mistings can now access Feruchemical power (even if they couldn't store the "excess" back into other metalminds and would have to be quite fine with their "burn rate"). Well, what if they were nicrobursted while doing so? When tapping a pewtermind for strength, the Feruchemist physically "Hulks out", and per the Coppermind, "it's possible for a feruchemist to tap so much tha their girth makes it difficult to maneuver." So, imagine a Pewterarm finding an unkeyed pewtermind, ingesting it thinking it was ordinary pewter, then getting an unexpected shock of physical growth when he burns it... And then a Nicroburst lying in wait zaps him to burn the entire pewtermind in one burst. Boom, an immobile tortoise of muscle! LOL! Nicrobursting and... Nicrobursting? What if you chained nicrosbursts together? I'm hoping for something like this: Actually, I don't think nicrobursting a nicroburst to try to "mega-burst" a third Allomancer would do more than a straight up one-level nicroburst, because by definition, the burst is releasing the target Allomancer's metal stores all at once, right? But it's fun to imagine all the same.

Not with a bang, but an AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH

You mean, spiking a chasmfiend to Ruin it into another form - like stapling four of them together to make a kolossfiend?! - or to give it magical powers? As footnoted in the Coppermind, we have a WOB that hemalurgy "would work on animals", after all... Teaching it to use Allomancy would probably be impossible (especially since it'd involve teaching it to identify and ingest the appropriate metals to burn), but assuming Feruchemy could be instinctual, you could spike a chasmfiend with F-steel or F-pewter (and put a suitably large metalmind collar onto it) to make something pretty terrifying. Heck, spike a chasmfiend with three Feruchemical spikes - F-steel, F-pewter, and F-gold - and then it might be pierced enough for a nicroboosted Soother or Rioter (or Mistborn) to seize control of.

The other evening as I came home after work, it was so foggy the mist was rolling thick at ground level - they even shut down a stretch of the NJ Turnpike because of poor visibility. And all I could think was, "Maybe I'll go for a mistwalk and see if I Snap."

You want OP, consider if a Twinborn like Wax who's got one of the most powerful combos of physical metals also held the Windrunner Honorblade in a highstorm. Yikes!

That's hilarious. Obviously there would be an in-world low/parodic mode of the ketek, because people are still people... Also trivial exercises like the haiku homework a kid supposedly wrote ending in "are you happy now?" -- "Ketek writing due - I duly write a ketek"

Happy Festivus! So glad that no Allomancer can Pull away our Festivus pole, since it's made of aluminum. Plus, I can use to block a Shardblade in a pinch!

He could also have been busy amassing the approximately TWENTY THOUSAND BREATHS needed to reach the Ninth Heightening.

I'll try, but it's a hard habit to kick.

Also guilty of not reading through 13 pages of a thread I've just picked up on (I've been away from this forum for a few weeks), but: Is there any evidence that Adolin's Plate might also come from Maya, originally? Might that be yet another factor in his being able to partially revive a bond with her, along with meeting her "in person" in the Cognitive Realm? I tried finding a description of Adolin's set of Shardplate, but all I could readily determine was that (a) he inherited it from his mother, and (b) that he has, three times and all on purpose, done a Number Two in it while in the thick of battle. "Dead" Shardplate is always a dull gray, though, unless painted otherwise, and we only have a few visions of Dalinar's to go by as to what "living" Plate would look like, so I'm not sure if we could identify Adolin's Plate as being from a Cultivationspren anyway.

The Radiants definitely "killed" their spren, by summoning and locking them in the form of Shardblades in so doing, which is why they can be wielded by anybody. We know that abandoning their oaths would do that. We know that the Stormfather knows that, and assumes that that's what the Radiants did. And we know the Radiants definitely consciously and actively summoned and then abandoned their Shards, based on Honor's vision of the event, unless even Honor is an unreliable source due to madness on the brink of death. I suppose there is the possibility that there is another way to "kill" the spren that doesn't involve forswearing the Ideals, but there's no reason to think otherwise.

Yeah, his driving emotion was not ambition but vengeance. He felt vengeful so strongly that he betrayed Kaladin for its sake. He still feels guilt over that, and misses his Bridge Four mates. But he's given all of that - his "passion" for vengeance, his shame and his guilt for his betrayals - over to Odium, and even given up his identity as Moash to become Vyse, the Honorblade wielding (plus whatever that golden dagger thingy actually is) human agent of Odium. Dalinar refused to "give Odium his pain", but Moash certainly has. And from Odium's confidence in Dalinar's conversion until that point, it seems that once you give it to Odium, you can't get it back. Well, unless he gives it back, which it seems he only does in controlled jabs to remind his pawn why they are his pawn in the first place. Because they couldn't stand the... "Passion" involved in taking the burden of responsibility for their actions. Amaram was in the same boat.

An explanation is given. It is certainly the reason the listeners/Parshendi were, and are, motivated to fight humans by bonding with Voidspren. It's one that several people have already promoted as a theory in the history of Roshar in general, not specifically as a reason for the mass oathbreaking of Radiants. But I'll note that it's quite possible that this is not THE reason for the Recreance, just A Thing That Is Surprisingly Upsetting to the main human characters, and raises questions in Kaladin's mind in particular as to What Is The Right Course of Action Now? For all we know, the original KRs knew or suspected this all along, and the Recreance we saw happening in one of Dalinar's visions has little or nothing to do with the revelation. After all, this is Brandon Sanderson we're talking about as the author, and it's book 3 of 10. And there is Always Another Secret.

Don't fool yourself. Clearly you were BOOTED out.