SpeakoftheDeval

Hi guys, not been on the Shard in a while but recently read TLM- and one thing I don't know if I understood was the whole Marasi and the kidnapped allomancers burning away Autonomy's perpendicularity. 

It's not really discussed much as there's a lot to move onto, but surely going through that much investiture (enough to use up an entire perpendicularity) would easily make every single one of those people a Savant. Has this been confirmed somewhere? 

Also considering they were using the investiture of autonomy to fuel their allomancy, would this have any weird effects that normal savantism wouldn't have? 

17 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

So, is the Intent of Odium so strong, that the picosecond Taravangian takes it up, he decides all of that is moot, and he will press the war, as is? Not just the deal, which was the OP's question (which I understand the deal was made with Odium the power, not Rayse the person, so that makes sense) but Taravangian's singular purpose for the last 7+ years has been to save as much of humanity as possible...is that all out the window now? 

As I understand it, the effect of intent on the personality of the vessel takes a lot longer than that to set in. It'll mean he instantly can't do things that are counter to the intent of the shard, but with a shard like odium that grants him considerable leeway- I suppose it means he can't... Act solely out of compassion? 

But as long as the action is a way to express the shards inherent contempt for everything, it shouldn't be a problem, even if there is some level of good involved as a byproduct. 

52 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Then if a Misting were to have their power removed via Hemalurgy, they could use the Nalthian's health to grow back their power (assuming it's Identity-free). 

I'm not sure this would work as Hemalurgy would probably involve ripping out the part of the spiritweb that codes for the power, and healing involves restoring the physical to what the spiritual says it should be. Without the spiritual code for the power, I don't think healing would be able to get it back.

Been a while since I've been on the shard but here's a thought- if you were told that botw takes place in the cosmere, how would you interpret/expand the lore? 

Does the situation in Hyrule need two opposing Shards to explain it? One Goddess Shard that fuels sheikah tech, one Dark Shard that Ganon is perhaps a sliver of?

9 hours ago, HoidIsAwesome said:

A more relmatic angle is that I don't think what Culti did to T could "stick" Investiture wise after T ascended. We've seen in the past that investiture of different types don't like mixing with each other (esp in this book) and I can't see any way which the relatively low amount of magic Culti would have used on Todd could have stuck post ascension. 

Id hesitate to agree here. It seems to me that cultivations tweaks to people are changes to their spiritweb that require investiture to do, but not to maintain as that's just what their spiritweb is now. It's not like voidlight powered forms, needing a constant supply. 

If im right then the change to Taravangians spiritweb wouldn't have automatically disappeared, but I'm not sure why he wouldn't now have the capacity to actively undo it himself. For that matter why didn't any of the shards alter the spiritwebs of their own vessels to enhance their ability to wield the shard. 

Wait this might seem elementary but can sleepless distribute their own hordelings over multiple planets? Seems like a good self preservation strategy if they can but seems absolutely insane.

Also it's interesting how Huio talked about expected populations of the silver kingdoms- up until the 18th century, European intellectuals were certain the total population of the world had been declining since Roman times, and Voltaire even said that he expected earth to be completely empty of human life in 1000 years if the decline isn't halted. It makes a lot of sense that on Roshar as well they also believe that the human population of the globe has been declining since the recreance or since the silver kingdoms fell. 

Can we quickly talk about Dalinar becoming a religious figure? 

I mean it's understandable that people might see him as the Almighty made human considering his bond to the storm father, and he's created a compelling, unspeakably unique text. This might mean that men go back to not writing as Dalinar is seen as so divine the restrictions don't apply to him, which isn't the case for others, or it could mean that more men write- most probably both but in different locations and to different extents. 

How will mainstream vorinism react to this? Could they be forced to integrate some of this Dalinar cult or would it just increase the antipathy felt towards Kholins by vorins.

How does Dalinar himself react? He'll try to ignore it for as long as he can but at some point just ignoring them is support for their existence. 

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I dunno, still seems a stretch to me. You argued that the backlash you feel is required is going to happen in this book. So there is going to be this rebellion to kick her off and then they are going to just stop and twiddle their thumbs for 10 years? That doesn't make sense to me.

No I don't think it necessarily has to come to a boil in this book- it very well might not happen in the next book either. But the moment people decide a) Jasnahs planning for this to be permanent, b ) Odiums forces aren't an immediate pressing threat, discontent will grow. 

I don't know what you mean by twiddle their thumbs- they can get rid of Jasnah at some point, she immediately spends part of the ten years worldhopping while the political situation stabilises in Alethkar and then is induced to come back for the back 5. 

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am referring specifically to this quote:

 

  Hide contents

"I’ve avoided talking too much about Jasnah as a general rule, since I plan her to be a major (perhaps the major) character of the back five books, and so it’s best to keep focus off her for now. There will be plenty of time for discussions about her later."

 

I really don't see how she could no longer be involved in Roshar and the quote from Brandon still be true. So either Jasnah leaves and Brandon is lying, or Jasnah sticks around, and what Brandon says is accurate. I lean towards Brandon. So I do not think what you suggest is likely. But to each their own. 

Maybe she leaves in the gap between the two halves and comes back later, maybe parts of the back half are set off planet, there's a number of ways to get around it. I'm not saying I think it's likely that she will become a worldhopper or that's when she's gonna leave, but it's a possibility.

10 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I think the chances of a revolution are rather slim, since most of the military power in Alethkar is focused in Dalinar's hand and her reforms are probably going to go over well with the majority of citizens.

Military power is in dalinars hands for now, but it's not like his subordinates won't disobey him to restore the proper, religious government if they think he's a real long term threat to it. 

I also don't see how they'll go down well with the majority of citizens, especially as Alethkar doesn't have citizens it has subjects of the crown. That might seem pedantic but it reflects what political discourse is like at the moment- in general they don't believe in the equality of all mankind, they don't believe that an atheist can be ruler, they don't believe that slaves should be free. 

Even if a majority don't disagree in theory, which I can't imagine is the case, the rich and powerful who likely own many slaves along with their land would definitely hate this intrusion into their power and wealth, and as they're the ones with power it's their opinion that matters. 

@Pathfinder what do you mean the Jasnah being an important part of the back five books? 

Really that bit was just a random musing but the general point of consent are needed still stands. 

@agrabes

And so the endless debate between reform and revolution continues. What could maybe be interesting is a rebellion that pushes Jasnah off the throne and either banishes her or makes her just give up on trying to fix society and go worldhopping to find a society that agrees with her views. 

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't believe that Jasnah is changing the distinction between lighteyes and darkeyes. Radiants are probably doing that all on their own. As for joining Odium, the parshmen conquered their country, killed their previous monarch, and are made entirely out of ex-slaves. So far, we've seen that jasnah has changed succession laws, allowing women to inherit titles and is going to announce an end to slavery. We haven't seen the highprinces reaction to Jasnah's proclamation, so I would reserve judgement until then.

Yeah I guess we've just got to wait and see. 

You are right though that radiants are upending the system so the privilege that lighteyes used to have will need to change its justification, but privilege is far more likely to morph and maintain itself than just be obliterated. When in America slaves got their freedom, upending the social order in ways that are perhaps comparable to the lighteyes darkeyes thing, white supremacy in the south didn't just die away, for all that we may wish it had. It morphed to maintain privilege. 

Odium probably seems like a bad option at the moment you're right, but if long term Jasnah doesn't refuse to pull back these reforms and people find out that the Singers have more or less maintained alethi social structure, it might start looking like a better option. 

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, sure, it just seems like a strong reaction to something that we don't know how it's being played - and especially in light of how my strongest impression of the Alethi princedoms is how the people opposing the Kholins keep getting knocked off - strong social backlash doesn't necessarily ring true to me as the only reasonable option.

I mean what else do you think they would do? For now possibly they might think there are bigger fish to fry but long term? 

Is it really satisfying if the Kholins just face no consequences for their actions?

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

While I agree with your premise some of Jasnah's moves I think are less controversial then you might think.  Yes Alethkar does have incredibly well entrenched gender norms but even in other societies with the same you still had cases of, for example, female rulers.  Jasnah saying that competent woman can inherit land would probably be seen less as a progressive move then a concession to the fact that large numbers of landholding men are going to be killed and some already have been.  She has not freed slaves yet but given the confusion and the fact that singers will employ humans she can argue freeing slaves is another necessary concession.  It is not like she is getting rid of the entire rank system.

Female rulers have happened sure, but normally in cases where the last king doesn't have an heir. If there is a male heir present, then the obvious solution is a female regent, which theoretically is exactly what should've happened both with Jasnah and Gavinor and Laral and her sons. The Kholin family are in a unique position and perhaps have leeway to temporarily change things to help the war effort, but I think long term everyone will be expecting Gavinor to be crowned as soon as the wars over, whether Jasnahs still around or not. In fact this change will perhaps widely be seen as Jasnah changing the law so that her getting the power to change the law isn't illegal anymore, so that even when the war is over there will be a legal basis for her to still be queen. In fact, earlier when people were wondering why she would receive Laral as citylady officially, it makes sense that she'd do so to normalise and attempt to legitimise this legal innovation that is the basis of her own power.  She's probably going to try and get a fairly sizable crowd to watch her officially confirm Laral, implicitly getting their assent for it.

The rank system probably does feel embattled though and they're probably looking for explicit support, not just hostile passivity from a monarch. On the one hand radiants are throwing it out of order, and on the other high placed Kholins don't seem to care about maintaining their station. Anything less than active endorsement of the rank system, or in other words if Jasnah does the logical thing and gives darkeyes high positions thus implicitly denying the system, is an attack on the system and they'll try and fight it eventually. As always, yes this is definitely exceptional circumstances and people probably just want to get through it, but they'll also probably be looking for a return to normalcy afterwards. In fact the reactionary backlash could wind up with a more ossified hierarchy than before. 

9 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

@SpeakoftheDeval I mean, for me, the Kholins have already killed/been freed of many of their more powerful rivals within the kingdom. The nobles who are grumbling are only grumbling and nothing more because they already are missing the more powerful/bold people who would actually do more against the Kholins.

And how many nobles would be considering switching to Odium? At least the Parshmen would let them keep their slaves, maintain their traditions and essentially what rudimentary political constitution they have, in terms of the vague sense of "proper behaviours and laws". What's the point of fighting for a queen who given her track record is set to erase any recognition that you're better than a darkeyes? From their perspective, she's using despotic authority with a fairly weak legal basis to reach down and destroy the very basis of a stable family, the patriarchy and society as a whole.

And it's not like collective action wouldn't be possible either, given most nobles are in or around the shattered plains/ urithiru. They could easily form a diet to limit royal authority even if theyre individually too small to secede. 

Is it just me that was made really uncomfortable by the whole Jasnah unilaterally changing inheritance laws? 

I can believe it on the level of, you can theoretically change any law you want, it's not like you actually have a kingdom to rule at the moment and it just shows all the highprinces that this imperial project has failed and they're gonna need to resume sovereignty once alethkar is reconquered.

One of the things I really liked about roshar is how diverse it's cultures and how societal norms were being debated. In history, there were a lot of movements with various broadly egalitarian views- but that doesn't mean those movements, had they achieved power would have been able to enforce it on everyone else. Im a lot less excited about this state centric, Whiggish history of things can only ever get better and all you need is a ruler with a brain and boom society is Fixed. 

It feels kinda similar to the so called Rationalist Fanfictions like the one where Bella from Twilight uses Science to completely change global and vampire society in the name of Progress, disregarding the fact that the very fact it didnt happen means there were strong societal forces against it, or insulting all the characters  and the society that's been built by the author by saying that they simply hadn't thought about equality but now that someone Rational has come along and told them how good it is, they're going to completely change their society to fix it. 

With the extreme level of changes Jasnah is autocratically decreeing, I can't help but think that she's a terrible queen and will soon be sidelined, discrediting her policies for possibly centuries afterwards. Even Catherine the Great wasn't comfortable issuing such far ranging reforms and she's the model of the enlightened despot, and Alethkar doesnt have the absolutist tradition of Tsarist Russia. 

Perhaps a good real world parallel is Josephinism in the Austrian monarchy- you have an enlightened monarch who personally adheres to egalitarian views, who has a broad vision for radical societal changes that he is fundamentally sure will make life better overall. In attempting impose these views on everyone, disregarding the vested interests, the complex legal traditions, the privileges that people seek to retain, etc however, he alienated everyone and essentially created massive revolts out of nowhere that long term severely weakened his state and its position in central Europe. Jasnahs position is even less stable than Joseph's, the intellectual tradition behind her reforms is so much less developed than 18th century Habsburg lands,  and it is so incredibly unrealistic that everyone just goes Yes your majesty. 

And yeah I get that society is undergoing massive changes, but in times of crisis people tend to rally to the established order for some level of stability and societal changes are slow, each step is resisted by the established order and they require very broad bases of popular support. If jasnah can pull all of this off with just a bit of grumbling from the nobility, I just wouldn't be able to take any rosharan politics seriously. 

I really liked a lot about this chapter- the logicspren thing was interesting, my brain instantly jumped to fabrial computers. 

Venlis wonder at ancient singer architecture really resonated with me and I was reminded of the time I went to Versailles and I asked my mum, do you think there are any palaces in India that could compete with Versailles? And she went no probably not, but every time I see an old painting that shows a building, I'm like yeah there would be so many palaces in India that could compete with Versailles if they still had their carpets or awnings or murals or gardens, not to mention just if they still had all the rooms and pavilions that were later demolished by the British as punishment or as booty. It's a bit off topic I know, but I really relate to this aspect of the singer experience- we had something amazing too once, but not having it now does cause a moment where you have to wrestle with that cultural insecurity and deal with it, which people of the culture that did the erasing never have to go through.

I'm also interested to see how staged a lot of singer politics seems to be- it reminds me of the early centuries of the holy Roman Empire where the culture of public displays of emotion and politics of all decisions needing to be unanimous to be valid led to most decisions being made in back room negotiations and then acted out in public so that all the right emotions and grand declarations of servitude or magnanimity seem spontaneous, authentic, natural and thus unalterable. In singer culture, which values emotion so much, id imagine it's even more important to have planned out what's going to happen in any assembly because you need to know exactly which emotions to broadcast and when by attuning the various rhythms. 

Seeing all the fused who have given up their minds also leads me down the Buddhism path- there's obviously some parallels in terms of a cycle of rebirth, but I think these mindless fused might parallel Boddhisattvas in Mahayana Buddhism- they've been reborn enough and become so enlightened that they have fully given up their suffering (attained Nirvana/Buddhahood), but out of compassion for the rest of us who continue to suffer, they continue to be reborn to help us and once they've helped us only then will they allow themselves to fully exit existence. Even if Venli doesn't seem to find their fate attractive, the average singer about town who wholeheartedly believes these ancestors have come to save them will find a way to rationalise why they seem so mindless that fits with the saviour narrative. 

On 15/09/2020 at 3:01 PM, _edgedancer said:

but perhaps more specific because there are far more Fused than there are Heralds. 

Perhaps specific fused were so to speak the patron deities of their own descendants, it's possible that ancestor worship was a fair part of ancient singer culture. Or maybe it parallels views on the companions of Muhammad in Islam where descent from a particular fused is something people are obsessed with and massively important in society and particular fused are seen as completely divinely inspired and unable to have done any wrong. 

Wait I'm new to this topic-have people talked about the potential effects of singers undergoing surgery and having metal wiring placed around their gemhearts? How would this alter their forms? 

I know it’s an awfully long way away at the moment- but imagine a future where dmg has released the first season of the storm light tv show or the first mistborn movie and it does remarkably well- what are the chances Disney will be eyeing an acquisition of dmg or rights for the cosmere? I doubt they’d have all that many rivals for the buy- but who might be able to get there before then? Do you think they’d restart their own Disney made cosmere from scratch or continue the dmg one?

36 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I would speculate that they possess exotic hardwoods, and otherwise rare foodstuffs and spices. Theirs is the tropical region after all, and their climate differs greatly from most of the rest of the human-settled parts of Roshar.

Well long distance trade items need to be long lasting and light- hardwood is probably too heavy for long distance pre modern trade and foodstuffs would have to be imperishable. I think the thing that most lends itself is spices yeah

or actually what about silk? Whoever makes silk would certainly have a lot of economic power considering the massive demand.

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And Thaylen's are almost universally thought of in relation to trade.

Well yeah, all I’m saying is that if they were placed there because of supposed shardic influence or deliberately choosing a place on Roshar to settle, you would expect it to be more central or self sufficient 

Ok so king T says there’s a major trade route going from Herdaz, through Jah Keved and on to Azir and so I was wondering what exactly is traded along this route? I think it’s not too outlandish to assume that Azir is a big market and has mines at Zawfix so they can trade gems and metals, and Jah Keved has mines and lots of food they can export but what exactly is Herdaz exporting? They don’t seem like a market that’s big enough to justify an entire trade route without something to export in return so what’s up?

On 07/07/2018 at 4:41 PM, DocHoliday said:

It's my understanding that the island itself is the windbreaker, Thaylen City is on the west coast of the island and dosnt suffer from the Highstorms as much. Unfortunately this turned out to be a double edge sword when the Everstorm came.

Well that’s the very western edge then, not enough for farmland to support a sedentary population, meaning the thaylens have needed to have a global reach for trading in order to survive 

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

I'm talking more about the chemicals needed to build biological molecules. Plants get hydrogen and oxygen from water, and carbon with photosynthesis, as well as energy. They still need nitogen, phosphorous, sulfur, sodium, potassium, calcium, iron, chloride, and a handful of other elements I'm forgetting about and I'm too lazy to look on wikipedia. that's why real plants need roots and fertilizer. No matter how much light and water and carbon dioxide they get, without phosphorous they can't make DNA, without iron they can't make a few specialized enzymes that handle oxygen. So I'm wondering if investiture can conjure those elements, or if plants are still limited by their availability.

I think the consensus is that all nutrients on Roshar are provided in the crem 

@Calderis

Isn’t ambient Investiture very weak though? Surely it can’t be enough to independently sustain plants. As in like cosmere wide leftover from the original creation ambient Investiture?

So for other, shard based forms of Investiture,like Stormlight, I was under the impression that you’d need a connection of some sort to access it. Am I mistaken?