WildSpeculation

It takes a while for newly raised Aes Sedai to develop the ageless face after swearing the Three Oaths. So it is possible that new(ish) Aes Sedai were sent to capture Rand. They wouldn't have the ageless face yet and would have been harder to detect. Setalle Anan should know this so she may have suspected that while Nynaeve and Elayne could be newly raised full Aes Sedai, I think other things tipped her off that those tow had not sworn the Three Oaths.

So, I don't see an inconsistency.

2 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

I apologize for my relentless immaturity 

This is something you should never have to apologize for. But if you are being chull dung (which you are not), you can apologize for that.

27 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Doesn't Mr T have Jezrien's blade now? So we could see a Dustbringer dual wielding with 4 surges...

No book so no quote: but I believe that the Blade given to Moash after he killed Jezrieh was the Honorblade that Mr. T had. Odium got it from him after their talk at the end of the book.

Sorry guys, long weekend and I let this tread die, but you deserve responses.

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 5:45 PM, DiamondMind said:

You know what, I might as well do it myself...I'll upload it in a bit. Ok, done, I also named all the Ideals we've heard and made them a bit more universal. For the Unmade, I put in the ones that I think have the strongest support. The other three use more guesswork. Feel free to disagree.

I like some of what you have going on here. I was unsure with the Mistspren, at first I thought that they were a minorspren because they were serving the Honorspren on their ship. However, all of the other minor spren that we saw (Lifespren and Gloryspren for example) were not sapient. So I do now agree that Mistspren are probably a Majorspren. How did you come to place them with Truthwatchers? Is there something in the story or WoBs that I missed? (entirely possible) If we put Mistspren as a majorspren

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 4:10 PM, l_raspberries said:

I think you should put lightspren as the Willshaper spren.

We met Captain Ico, the lightspren, who says (1) his father is a deadeye and (2) his daughter "ran away to chase dreams" [paraphrasing]

You make a very convincing argument and in fact I had Lightspren in that spot. I moved it down to possible spren before I posted this chart because I didn't think there was enough evidence. I will put it back now, but mark it as unconfirmed.

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 5:45 PM, DiamondMind said:

There's been multiple discussions about things in your chart

Yes, this is not the first time that we have tried to put things in an easy to read format. In fact, I have posted this chart before Oathbringer. Obviously it was an older version using the information that we had at the time.

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 5:45 PM, DiamondMind said:

There's been discussion about the Unmade

For this, I am still not convinced that the Unmade belong on this chart. I did find the discussion fascinating and saw many convincing arguments on both sides. With all of that being said, I did fill in the chart with all of the Unmade, marked as unconfirmed.

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone! The theorizing and guessing is one of the things that I love about Brandon's books!

1 minute ago, signspace13 said:

I don't Know if I agree with the title of 'godspren' for the bondsmith's spren, they are powerful and each seems to be related to the shards, but I feel like 'oathspren' is a more accurate term. Dalinar refers to the stormfather as "a spren of oaths" more than once and the fact that it is the stormfather that decides whether an oath is acceptable or not even for other orders of the Radiants suggests that it is linked to his intent.

The nightwatcher also seems to be about binding people to their word, though in a more sinister way in some cases. I feel like oathspren is more precise description of them than 'godspren'.

I understand the statement, but that is the term that is going around the forums since WoR, so I used it here. It is also in use on the coppermind:

Quote

"Godspren"

 

It has been theorized that the Bondsmith spren may be "godspren" -- in other words, the cognitive representation of the people of Roshar's gods. This might explain why Bondsmiths are said to have bound such "specific" spren, and also why there is only three Bondsmiths at any given time. Presumably, this would be due to that fact that there would only be as many powerful "godspren" at any given time as there were heavily worshipped gods on Roshar. Honor (i.e. The Almighty) and Cultivation are two obvious candidates for having "godspren." Indeed, The Stormfather is already confirmed to be the "godspren" of Honor.^{[Citation needed]} Who the other worshipped god could be on Roshar is unclear at this point. It should be noted that "pious" is the primary divine attribute of Ishar, the Herald of the Order of Bondsmiths. This would seem to fit with the idea of Bondsmiths sharing a Nahel bond with "godspren."

3 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

1) i think the unmade are tied to the emotion (the stronger), more like the 'seven sin'. for example re-shephir don't copycat the coincidently murded with the bottle but the men hanged after,

2) the edgedancer resonance come from?

3) based on the ivory spoke before jasnah try to kill renarin the truthwatcher see something,  the past probably (“He sees not what is, but what is to come,” Ivory said. “Odium’s power, Jasnah.”)

4) the resonance of bondsmith i think is "connection" He can share the connection with other (dalinar learn the language touching a person), and share his connection with someone (give shallan the stormfather impression of roshar, he can share the vision with someone simply touching him/her)

1. I tend to agree with you. I did jump into the deep end with the preview chapter of Shallan fighting Re-Shephir. That is partially why I don't have any other Unmade in the actual chart and may remove that column entirely. for now it will sit there until the hype from Oathbringer cools down and more study and theories are put out on the forums.

2. From Edgedancer - Lift seems to have an ability to speak with the urchin that can't be explained easily.

3. I think we need to be careful using Renarin as an example of what a Truthwatcher is. He is bonded to what appears to be an Odium tainted spren. In his PoV, he mentions that the visions are not from him nor is it from Glys, but something separate. (at work, no book, so no quote) The actual Truthwatcher Resonance may be something else entirely.

4. I think connection may just be Spiritual adhesion. I think what he did with Shallan and the map is something different. However, you do have a valid argument and I can see the enhancement just being another example of Connection. I might put both in that space until we get more information, maybe from WoBs from the events.

1 hour ago, Fulminato said:

nice works. but we had any external proof of the elsecaller resonance? if only the hoid comment at the end of WoR don't think is solid enough.

Nope, that is why it is highlighted yellow (yellow are guesses) and tagged wild speculation.

I had Gloryspren marked as Bondsmith's minor spren and future sight as Truthwatcher's Resonance before Oathbringer. As you can see, I unhighlighted Gloryspren and crossed out futuresight as they were confirmed/blown out of the water in Oathbringer. I am hoping to fill in more of the chart with confirmed information and guesses and see what we can do.

The goal of this chart is to try to get as much information in one place to see if there is any correlation. As you can see I inserted the Unmade into the chart after the preview chapters; however, I did not see any further confirmation throughout the rest of the book so that whole column remains highlighted. I may remove it or just move it into a separate chart, but I could see a argument to try to put the Thrill (Nergaoul) is a corruption of the Divine Attributes of Brave and Confident or Obedient.

So throw those WildSpeculations around and let's see if we can guess some things correctly.

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:22 AM, MoS03 said:

I think that's been the strongest theory on Plate anyone has put forth yet. It's been the popular theory since WoR I think?

To expand, Lifespren for Edgedancers, logicspren? for Elsecallers. We've seen Radiants attract large amounts of these, except the logicspren, that's more of a guess.

Have Renarin or the Dustbringer/Releaser ever attract large amounts of a particular spren?

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 7:04 AM, Stromblessed said:

Oh I really like this idea. Specific spren being drawn to each order of the KR and forming their Shardplates. I've been thinking about why so many Gloryspren in particular were drawn to Dalinar at his semi Ascension and why the windspren kept being drawn to Kaladin so much and this might explain both.

Shardplates of different orders of the KR do seem to have different glows as seen in Dalinar's visions

This has been speculated before, I have tried to catalogue the major and minor spren as we learn them, feel free to join in!

[OB] Comprehensive Surgebinding Chart

I am looking for some feedback on my Surgebinding chart that has been updated for Oathbringer. I am sure many of you saw Connections that I missed. I have included an Excel doc, a PDF doc, and  picture for your viewing pleasure. And here we go:

Stormlight.pdf

Stormlight.xlsx

6 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Brandon taking a shot at all our theories that just died? 

Or, he is a smart married man.

If I remember correctly, Renarin explains this in book. (I am at work and do not have on hand for a quote) He explains it using a plate as a metaphor. If you etch a circle into a plate and then break the plate, you will likely get a circle among the broken pieces. The breaks would follow the path of least resistance and break around the already weakened part with the circle.

1 minute ago, Wreith said:

I think they're Parshendi or possibly Dawnsingers (who themselves may be Parshendi by some theories).

This largely because of Rlain's description of his gods as

 

Oh double post because I like your theory as well! This makes sense when combined with the connection I was trying to make in my post. The Unmade were the 'anti-heralds' of the Parshendi. When the Bondsmith broke the Listeners and made them Parshmen, it caused Re-Shephir to lose that piece of her.

I can't wait to see what version is true! That is part of what I love about these books!

Just now, dvoraen said:

This isn't possible, as Yelig-nar existed long before the Heralds forswore their oaths, as stated in Dalinar's vision with Nohadon present.

Unless, the Unmade came back WITH the Heralds every Desolation. It was only after the broke their oaths that the Unmade separated from the Heralds causing Re-Shephir to search for that piece it lost and perhaps to lose that bit of sapience. Similar to how Syl and Patern get 'smarter' as their bond grows stronger.

If the Heralds are 'bonded' to the Unmade and breaking their oaths separated them, This could explain it. I know the timelines of centuries doesn't add up to the prelude, but I always assumed that there was less time and fewer Desolations than modern day Vorinism claims.

I am honestly throwing around with the idea that the Unmade are somehow a 'shadow' of the Heralds. I am not sure I agree with the theory floating around about the Unmade were created whenever a Herald broke and started a Desolation, but some of the comments in Shallan's chapter provide some credence the idea that the Unmade and Heralds are at least related. For example:

Quote

People sang about Re-Shephir in poetry and epics, describing her as a dark, beautiful figure. Paintings depicted her as a black-clad woman with red eyes and a sultry gaze.

Sounds like Shallash to me.
 

Quote

 

 It made Shallan wonder if this spren wasn’t merely trying to understand humankind, but rather searching for something it itself had lost.

Had this creature—in distant, distant time beyond memory—once been human?

 

All of this is curious to me. I don't know that I can firmly say that I believe the Unmade are corrupted portions of the Heralds, but I am being swayed.

23 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said:

Which would make Ishar, and therefore the Bondsmiths, having the minorspren of gloryspren. Maybe

I was trying to figure out what those ones appeared to be, but yes it looks like you might be right. I am going to put Gloryspren in my Stormlight Chart as speculation and see how it plays out in a couple weeks. That leaves me 6/10 minorspren filled out. Given most of those are guesses, but.....

Is it possible that Shallan saw the 10 minorspen? This is going off the speculation that each KR Order has a Majorspren (Windrunner-Honorspren, Lightweaver-Liespren, Edgedancer-Cultivationspren) and a minorspren *speculation(Windrunner-windspren, Lightweaver-creationspren, Edgedancer-lifespren). If that is the case, is it not possible that the Bondsmiths have a minorspren and a Majorspren? In which case the 'major' spren for Bondsmiths would be Godspren, whose number appears to be limited to three? (Stormfather, Nightwatcher and a third unknown) It also appears to me that the Majorspren are related in someway to the minorspren. i.e. Honorspren are windspren but more, Cryptics are creationspren but more....

So, it may be possible that for the mural to show all of the KR spren needed the 9 varities of Major/minorspren plus the Bondsmith minor spren, plus the Bondsmith Majorspren...ie the 'Godspren', for a total of 13 pictures. I know that is a lot of logical leaps, but my name is not WildSpeculation for nothing.

Ok, you got a chuckle out of me..... take your upvote.

Put me in the camp that Re-Shephir is corrupting Illumination somehow and that is why Shallan and Renarin can sense her. Both of their orders share access to the Illumination Surge.

I honestly just think that the lake/pond/pool that Shallan found was only remarked upon as colorful, because the surrounding landscape was so not. The area around the Shattered Plains has been often remarked as being barren compared to where she grew up. So to find life and lots of it in all of it's variety in that place just makes it stand out more. If I am remembering correctly, the chasms were also fairly colorful as well.

20 hours ago, Cosmere Savant said:

Yes, my thoughts exactly and it seems pretty obvious that Windrunners Plate Spren are Windspren but what could it be for other orders? Do all the orders even have access to Shardplate?

We were speculating about these 'minor' spren, or 'cousin' spren in the Edgedancer Spoiler board if you want to jump back in it. See here: Minor Spren

A little necro, but I see no voted for answer, I just want to point you to the post Strange passage in Way of Kings. There is lots of speculation there. Short answer, we don't know. However, there is lots of good WildSpeculation going on. For one, Roshar has NO axial tilt, preventing our traditional interpretation of the seasons. Roshar also has three moons and we do not know how that plays with the seasons. I am looking forward to your theories about it!

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:42 PM, Isla_Vezrian said:

That's AWESOME! I read some of that stuff in one of the other threads so that's really cool. Especially the 'Minor' Spren as you call them, I thought about them but couldn't figure out a good way to write it down. I also think your guesses are probably spot on too. The resonances really made sense to me as well. It seems that every order has a specific attribute or power that comes along with it, besides the obvious surges. 

Yes, the resonances are confirmed to exist for each order, but we only have a few that have been confirmed by WOB.  Still new and can't figure out how to post WoBs like the pros do, so here is the link: (http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=+strength+of+squires) The 'minor' spren is just speculation as of now. I laid out the chart like I did so that I can try to find connections between everything. One thing to note however, is that the charts in the back of the books are in-world works. So, they may be incorrect.  

I have one similar with a few more things added on. Obviously  could use a little formatting, but I use it constantly.

Stormlight.xlsx

Stormlight.pdf

Because people know that they exist. I am sure that people see them as stars, but they know that they exist. Jupiter is the brightest object in our sky after the sun and moon. (enough so that it can cast shadows if the other two are below the horizon.) We (on Earth) knew Jupiter existed and thought that it was special even before we had a way to directly observe it. I am sure that there are scholars that see the 10 bright stars that are in their sky. There may even be a super station about having good luck if Jez is high in the sky on the night of your birth or something similar.

I think the only thing that could be added to this conversation was Jordon's use of foreshadowing. In fact, Brandon has stated that he learned a lot about foreshadowing and subtlety from Mr. Jordan's work. I know that there were prophecies, visions and dreams from book one (that you thought you knew what they meant, or were you thought were already fulfilled) that were still being fulfilled in books 9 - 11 and even 14 in ways that you never even thought about!

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=618 #8

(unsure if I linked the theoryland quote correctly, if not I might try to edit it. )