animalia

Does anyone else get a sort of Living Tien vibe from Renarin. Not just Tien specifically but how in the flashbacks of all of the Radiants theres a death, either one they caused directly, or indirectly by failing to protect someone. I DO have more to this idea that I can build on, but I want to see if anyone else thinks that there might be something with the first point before I go further. That being said I think that if Renarin DOES die, it will be by his own choosing, and in a way that will make such an impact on everyone that it would it stop Odium for good, and not just be mere character motivation like with so many other deaths in the story. After all what did the Way Of Kings/Oathbringer say, “The question,’ she replied, ‘is not whether you will love, hurt, dream, and die. It is what you will love, why you will hurt, when you will dream, and how you will die”

I could SWEAR it was problem when the shardholder didn’t resist the intent a little. As it lead to thier mind being to easily consumed by the shard. Wasn’t that stated somewhere?

Or an Edgedancer? Remember he said the Edgedancers would ALSO be ok with what Adolin did, and yet we see, Lift as an example of an Edgedancer. Also even Syl is trying is trying to tell Kaladin that he cannot save everyone. This is just a guess, (and probably a bit of projection on my part as well) but I am betting based on her line about about “how fighting can make you strong, but it seems to have only made me calloused,” is that she like Kaladin is someone who cares alot about people but she deals with those emotions in a radically different way. While Kaladin is able to feel his way through things, Jasnah has had to try to think her way through thinks. While Kaladin never seems to grow the callous his father advised he would need, Jasnah has grown calloused and is aware of it (and I do NOT think she thinks it is a good thing.) Also this is maybe me projecting myself as someone with Asperger’s and bad with social skills. (And there is evidence to suggest Jasnah may be similar, but it is all speculation at this point) But I found that despite trying to and tending to take an optimistic view of history and people. I do find myself becoming a bit more cynical and jaded as I get older. Remember when Kaladin said “sometimes all the logic and reason in the world can’t get in the way of that overpowering desire to get what you feel you deserve”? That statement helped me understand somethings because I sometimes feel the exact opposite way. That sometimes all the sympathy and understanding in the world for a person’s or a group of people (in the world’s) situation can’t get past my frustration with their ability to see logic and how they are only making their situation worse. As a result I often feel like I want to bang peoples heads together (metaphorically speaking) until something gets done. But at the same time I realize that I can’t just make people do that. That the more people are pushed the more they want to push back. It may seem contradictory, but both seem like quite logical conclusions to me. Edit: By Lift as an Edgedancer I mean she is one of the sweetest (if still irretating) people you can hope to meet yet she doesn’t like killing. Despite that her order would be ok with what Adolin did. I want to point that there’s a difference between thinking something is nessecary and thinking it is right. The latter claims the act was justified because the act was nessecary. The former claims the act needed to be done, but was still an evil thing to do, just a nessecary evil. Finally I hope that people from different orders with different ideals can get along, be friends and even lovers (and know this doesn’t mean Kaladin Jasnah has to be a thing. But I do want SOME. Cross order shipping) because what is the point of humanity if we can’t recognize the inherent goodness of other human beings even if we disagree with their ideals.

Just a thought but what if instead of Rayse, we had a different shardholder for Odium? And this shardholder of Odium hated hatred itself? How would that effect things? The reason I bring this up is the whole letting go of pain thing, is not inherently a bad thing. The problem is that Rayse trys to get people to deny their responsibility. The idea of letting go of pain, BUT COMBINED with taking responsibility, reminds me of the sacrament of confession. So my guess is maybe we are going towards a new shardholder for Odium. Which is why I bring up the concept of how would having a holder who hated hatred affect things. After all I believe Brandon gave the idea that while it’s good for a shardholder to resonate with the intent of a shard, it’s also good for them to try to resist it as well, as it prevents them from being overwhelmed by the shard.

The thing about Jasnah is we know so little about her. Especially about the way she thinks and feels on the INSIDE. As opposed to how she expresses herself. She’s been built up as emotionless, and uncaring but the very FEW insights into her head we get portray her as ANYTHING but that. As such segments are some of the most emotionally driven pieces in the story. It’s why I hope we get to see her open up more in future books, even if it comes from the perspective of an outsider.

The Ghostbloods remind me of orginized crime.

I think that the shards coming together will not mean the shards all reabsorbing the minds and intents into one being persay. But somehow that by “coming together” for lack of a better term. They can keep their individual minds, share intents to a small degree, and keep each other from being to sucked up into said intent where they loose their mind. A sort of Council of Shards, if you will.

My guess she wants love, she just figures it's not that likely to happen right now.

I ALSO think it’s important to note that Cultivation is a bit of a Gambler, she takes riskes risks. But they are ALWAYS CALCULATED risks. The reason she says things may not work out, is because ultimately the choice resides with those she places her bets on. In a way I guess you could say she is a Goddess who has as much faith in people, as people have faith in her. Does that make sense?

I have a feeling that the Ghost bloods are up to some DARK rust. They basically real you in slowly. Until it's too late. I also think that the reason they want to kill Jasnah so badly is that she is the only person to see the heart of their operations and live. That being said I have VERY little evidence to base this off of and lot of this is my gut instinct. I am mainly saying this now in case it turns out to be right. But suffice to say I havn't even began to scratch the surface of how DARK and TWISTED my theory is.

With luck they will found the idea of the social contract idea of law on Roshar. That's assuming no one already came up it.

Actually now that people have brought up The Jasnah -Szeth idea (either here of in a different thread) I kind of like it. I am not against this idea either per-say. But Jasnah-Szeth seems even MORE interesting the more I stop and think about it, where as Jasnah and Kaladin start to seem better as friends.

I thought the problem WAS that Odium embraced the hatred. In any case I would give a link if I knew how but I don’t know how to search for these things. If you can tell me how to search please tell me. That being said my theory for the new cultivation is not limited to Moash. Cultivation has MANY possibilities which makes it hard to pin down. Moash was just the first to come to mind. I have a better theory towards, Odium. But perhaps you can help me learn how to search the WOBs first?

Actually rather than being Oadium I think Cultivation suits Moash better for this reason. Brandon said that the shardvessals think that they think they took the shard because they felt they had a “part” of themselves” missing. Well all we have seen Moash. Do is tear things down but he sees that others HAVE to do better. In short they have to GROW but he RESISTS this inhimself so he would fight against the shards impulse. The way a shardholder is supposed to do.

Well that Truthwatcher in the past FORESAW SOMETHING SOMEHOW. I can throw out more ideas I have for how such an idea could take place. But I must warn you with each new idea there’s something new thst could be wrong. If you want though I will throw out more possibilities into the frey that I have thought of for discussion, but just to warn you they WILL SOUND RANDOM, and will NOT NESSECARILY all work together.

I am actually thinking it's less a dishard and more like what we see in Elantris. Only with THREE MINDS joined together in a council instead of no minds. EDIT: That combined Shardic council, by the way would be UNITY.

I have thought about this more and I DO have some doubts on it. At least on the part where, Moash becomes the new Odium. (Because the more I think about it the more I could see him falling into the same kind of flaws as Rayse) That being said I still like the idea that he might be the Gollum/Smegol of the story of whom without the one ring/Rayse might not be destroyed. EDIT: I have a new theory on who may be the new Odium, if you want to hear it.

I am wondering if Renarin is the first person that Glys bonded or if there were others? For example that other truthwatcher in the epigraph that forsaw things, is it possible he didn’t bond a different corrupted truthwatcher spren, but was a different person who bonded with Glys a long time ago? I posit that what makes Renarin special isn’t the bond with Glys peesay as that has been done before. But that because of the corruption and potential Odium there has always been a risk of someone who bonded with Glys breaking under the influence of visions and potential corruption of Odium. What makes Renarin special is that he did NOT break. And when he failed to break, when he ACCEPTED what he saw, is when he changed the future and became invisible to Odium. If this sounds crazy, remember that as much as Oathbringer has been about people taking responsibility. It’s also been about people who refused to break vs people who did. Kaladin to Amaram: “Did thebear forge the spear? No. It simply identified the spear that did not break.” Dalinar to Odium: “You cannot have my pain.” etc

Maybe because of the corruption he has to do his vows in reverse order, or something to that effect?

Another thing I'd like to add. That they BOTH seem to be about POSSIBILITIES. At least that's how I view the surge of illumination which they share. On one hand you don't don't if someone WILL become a better person if you encourage it in them. on the other hand you don't know that they will NOT become a better person either. BOTH have possibilities of becoming true. I guess the difference, if there is one, is how they LOOK at it. Which is probably why it's the SECOND surge for Truthwatchers instead of the first. Lightweavers see it as a lie they wish was the truth. Truthweavers see it as a hope for the future, something that as unlikely as possible, they HOPE will come true. OR Maybe I am just projecting to much of myself, and what Renarin MIGHT have gone through in here. In any case We have to keep in might that he is NOT an average Truthwatcher so the rules are probably different for him. Still I speculate as best I can.

My theory on why the Lightweavers and Truthwatchers are so close together on the Knight Radiant chart has to do with the fine line between the Truth and a Lie. We’ve seen that Cryptics are attrcted to anything that is NOT literally true, and we’ve seen how Shallan uses lies to inspire people. What little we know about the Truthwatchers was that they had a great deal of tact. I don’t know how Renarin differs from a standard Truthwatcher but as someone on the Autistic spectrum, although at a different point on it then he is (I was diagnosed with Asperger’s before it was rolled up under the umbrella in the latested DSM, so think more like Steris from Wax and Wayne) I can tell you about my relationship with the Truth. Not only does telling a lie have a strong effect on my concious, but so does not telling the whole truth. Leaving out details. Even the type of details that would make people uncomfortable. To use the sterotype here, don’t ask me if you look fat, unless you really want to know if you think you look fat. I won’t judge you for it or anything as I am overweight myself. But if you ask the question expect the answer. This is because, first off from my perspective, how am I supposed to tell if you are one if the people who fits the stereotype, or someone who genuinely wants to know if they look fat? If you are the latter then I am answering the question you asked, if you are the former, well “why did you ask a question if you didn’t want an answer in the first place?” At least that how it feels to me. It frustrates me. But I have come to realize that for much as people CLAIM they want the truth they often only want it when it clings to their point of view. That being said I can leave out details or give selective answers if I HAVE to but even something that is TECHNICALLY true rather than a flat out lie, will still bug because feels manipulative not telling the whole truth. Here’s where theory time comes into play. What if the difference between Lightweavers and Truthwatchers is such. Lightweavers are both broken by lies AND able to out and lie. But they also are able to inspire and hold things together by telling lies. They believe that everything about themselves is a lie. (Ironically they progress by telling truths.) (uber speculation) Truthwatchers on the other hand might still TECHNICALLY TELL the truth but by not TELLING the whole truth. They FEEL like they are lieing. The fact that they have to bend the truth in order to save others is what breaks them. That’s my theory. P.S. I am doing a reread and rereading sections with Renarin more closely. Anything I see that could help or hinder I will let you know.

And now you have given me a crazy and great awesome idea. Jasnah and Szeth working together to create the idea of establishment of legal seperation of curch and state in Roshar. After bringing up the idea of shipping them I like it even more with this idea. Also on the subject of Jasnah I’d like to bring to attention something I’d brought elsewhere in this forum. someone wrote a Tumblr thread compiling the evidence for Jasnah being Autistic http://caduceusstea.tumblr.com/post/170277307278/autisticjasnah-masterpost I also bring it up because I thought of Kaladin and Jasnah like this. They are two of the most emotionally driven characters in the series they just DEAL with their emotions in Radical different ways. As such while they might SEEM similar on the outside I wouldn’t be surprised if once you peel back the layers they are more similar than they appear. Even if they don’t become romantically involved I look forward to them interacting for that reason alone.

Ironically Young Dalinar seems more sociopatic although not QUITE THERE in that he doesn’t bother to lie. Sociopaths ARE capable of OCCASIONALLY caring about those CLOSE to them, and might not sever THOSE BONDS. BUT in general DON’T care much. Also unlike Asperger’s Syndrome/Autism which typically is unable to tell a lie to save their life, the STEREOTYPICAL Sociopath typically is a consumate liar. That being said I could see how under VERY DARK conditions the former could be twisted into the later. With the encouraging of violence for violence’s sake, the elevating of the temper (or what we call meltdowns) it would encourage the worst in such a person rather than the best.

Please forgive my double post but I want the person who just repped me to see this as it’s what I originally came back to this thread to comment on and I don’t want it to be missed. It’s a quote from the linked page before. Try to upset them deliberately and you'll rarely get the reaction you expected, because the two most confusing emotions for Aspies are sorrow and anger. And while it depends on the individual, they may have a very unexpected berserk button. I bring this up because we RARELY se Jasnah get upset. With the exception of Amaram who she is both impliied and confirmed to have history with, not much seems to get to her. And even with him it was a gradual winding up of tensions rather than a sudden loosing of her cool as she gave him MULTIPLE opportunities to walk away before things got to the point where they did. As a result I want to know, what is Jasnah Berserk Button? And will we get to see it pushed and go off in the next book. Personally I think it would be great if after all this build up of how she’s a supposedly emotionalless rock who thinks according to logic and is only moved by the people closed to her to have the sudden switch occur in the next book and show (to the average reader, and viewpoint character) that she’s FAR more emotional than she seems. I even have a theory about what the Berserk button could be, and how it could come into play in such a reveal. It’s shown before that Jasnah’s rails against restrictions of peoples freedoms. Well what would happen if someone suggested that the Parshmen should be “grateful” for what was done to them? I’d imagine Jasnah would snap. Especially given her time in one of the Alethi’s facilities for the mentally ill. Which are, let’s face it, not that great. I mean let’s face it. The people of Roshar didn’t JUST feed the Parshmen who were unable to feed for themselves, as a result of an unfortunate side effect of the attempt to seal off their forms of power. They ALSO turned them into out and out slaves. It is, for lack of a better word, dehumanizing. We don’t know much about how the mentally ill are treated on Roshar (and I know it will be ages before we get Jasnah’s full backstory) but I imagine it is similarly dehumanizing and more restricing or freedom than necessary. I apologize if I rambled or speculated to much. I am open to other theories. And I am aware of the fact that she was mentioned the possibility of genocide. My personal theory is she MEANT to say was that if they don’t find a way to stop the fused they will be stuck in a reality that was came down to the horrible atrocity of us vs them. The explanation made sense in her mind but it came out wrong in her mouth. Something I can relate to. That being said I would both like to know what people think of this idea AND if they have other potential ideas for what the Berserk button could be as I am open to suggestions.

Ditto. As someone diagnosed with Asperger’s I deal with stuff such as metaphor, a type of abstraction quite well, I also deal with sarcasm well And before you ask I was diagnosed by a doctor. The ability to deal with this stuff varies from person to person While this isn’t a medical resource or even cited like Wikipedia I found it remarkable accurate in helping to describe Asperger’s to others https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/AspergerSyndrome But if you don’t want to read the whole link I will quote the relevant part. This is a frequently disputed point. Many Aspies understand sarcasm, metaphor, analogy, and satire very well. Many can also be very adept liars due to their understanding of language and nuance (though lying tends to be rare and is usually for a deliberate and specific reason due to the effect it has on the Aspie's strong conscience). The point of dispute is that while taking things literally and straightforward is the "default mode" for most Aspies, it is by no means the only mode of operation. Furthermore, for many Aspies, the illogical aspect of pretending the world is other than that which it is lies less in the literal and direct thinking and more in that such self-delusion makes little sense to the Aspie mind as a general rule. An Aspie: "If we see the world differently, why should I pretend it is anything other than how I see it? Why should you pretend? Once we know we disagree we can agree on a compromise, rather than lying. Then we can be friends." Edit: Emphaisis Mine. And now that I think about it that qouted statement sounds alot like something Jasnah would say as well.