Krandacth

For me Shallan was Lindsey Lohan as she was in Parent Trap, but grown up a bit.

@maxal Don't get me wrong, I don't think any of the proto-radiants remained selfish, and the primary examples are most certainly not so now. But I see a pattern of their becoming broken being related to a fundamental failure in a selfishly motivated goal, and the reason they make good candidates for radianthood is that their response to their failure is to hold to the principle of their goal whilst giving up the selfishness of its original object. Child Kal was definitely selfish, and whilst going after Tien was possibly the most self-sacrificing act of his young life, it was also selfish: His parents wanted one of them to escape the nightmare Hearthstone had become, and he had a greater chance of doing good in the world if he had studied in Kharbranth. But he chose to follow Tien into the army largely because he couldn't bear the thought of Tien not being around. We obviously don't know what caused Shallan to break, so can't comment, but all the points you make about her trying to save her family are not only post-breaking, but post-oaths *and* a degree of Radiant progression; my observation that they become less and less selfish as they progress therefore holds. By all accounts, Elhokar has yet to be broken for all of WoK and most of WoR, so he should not be expected to be any better a person than mid-teen Kal or warlord Dalinar.

I see all the proto-KRs as starting out selfish, but fail in their selfish aims. Through the bond and the speaking of oaths, they reclaim their particular selfish desire, but in a generalised sense that applies to the world at large. Kaladin wanted to protect Tien, his brother and basically the source of his happiness. He was broken when he failed to protect his brother, then started applying that protection to people who reminded him of Tien, then through Syl begins to see protection as an ideal. Dalinar wanted to beat the entire kingdom into submission, United by his might under his brother. When his brother died, the weaknesses inherent in the kingdom (caused by the manner of its unification, which is largely his fault) become clear, and it becomes clear he has failed. He then goes about doing it right, and presumably through the Stormfather will come to see the ideal of unity applied to all humanity on Roshar. Elhokar wants to build a strong kingdom, out of a desire to live up to his father's legacy and keep hold of the power the leadership of such implies. He has failed, and is starting to acknowledge that by the end of WoR. Now that his personal power has crumbled, he is perfectly placed to start moving towards the generalised ideal of building strength in the next books.

@Yata We aren't suggesting that he changed the text directly, rather that Moelach's influence in the Diagram, given by Taravangian using the death rattles as a means to augment it, is a reflection of Odium's intent. Therefore Odium has influenced the Diagram indirectly. I'm not even really suggesting that it is part of Odium's master plan to influence the Diagram; it could easily be Moelach's own idea to do so, but as it is a splinter of Odium its influence is still likely to reflect His Intent. (ninja'd by @goody153) In fact, the idea that he is just throwing out creepy hints that happen to be phrased in misleading way, then letting Taravangian choose to use them or not, is very much in keeping with the approach that Tanavast attributed to him in the Visions: Letting humanity on Roshar destroy itself.

On the topic of Adolin's arc in the next book, I'd like to see the murder of Sadeas not be pinned on him, at least not for a long time. Instead he will be left with the self-doubt and guilt, which will fester, and fuel his existing inferiority complex that we see hints of towards the end of WoR: His betrothed, his father, his brother and his darkeyed bodyguard are all apparently paragons of honour and justice, and he loses his temper and commits murder? Not just any murder, but that of a high prince, which might well destabilise the already fragile and bewildered kingdom that Dalinar has been striving so hard to Unite, on the instructions of the Almighty, no less? The knowledge that he had exhibited such weakness of character (by reference to his father's ideals, at least) would surely lead him to ostracize himself, with no need for external blame. This internal state then more closely mirrors Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, with their self-blame and dejection exceeding what is aimed at them from outside. Also, if he doesn't get blamed and suspicion falls on others who suffer in his place, then that will fit with the theme expressed by Kaladin as "why do only I survive?" and by Shallan as "I wish they'd stop hurting others and just hurt me instead." So, if we hope for Adolin to become Radiant at some point, I think most of the personal repercussions of killing Sadeas will have to be self-inflicted.

@marianmi Actually, I would classify the psychotic break at the end of WoR (and subsequent self-doubt and guilt that should sensibly follow, given that it was so un-Alethi, illegal, and contrary to the ideals that Dalinar had convinced him were valuable) as likely pretty mentally scarring. Also, I would even see his killing Sadeas as "remembering those who are forgotten", as (IIRC) Sadeas' spiel leading up to that moment implicitly glosses over all the people that have fallen and will fall for his cause. He therefore killed Sadeas in their memory. I may be misinterpreting/misremembering the spiel, of course...

I'd like to return to this point (and the related, more recent posts less directly) because of a line of reasoning in another recent thread, linked below. I think that the Diagram's *original* source being cultivation can be true as well as it being influenced by Odium: Taravangian notes in his interlude that their primary means of maintaining the Diagram is via death rattles. Where do these come from? Moelach, a splinter of Odium. Hence the Diagram in its current state has been influenced by Odium, regardless of whether he influenced its "first draft".

An alternative view is that Moelach is knowingly corrupting the Diagram. We know from the Taravangian interlude that the death rattles are the primary way that they augment the Diagram, even though the Diagram itself says that they should not be a focus. So, if Moelach can be selective with the rattles, then he could be introducing notions that further Odium's goals rather than aiding humanity. Just because Taravangian chooses to make use of the rattles, potentially thinking that because they are guaranteed accurate foretellings he can use them *despite* their source, doesn't mean they are a positive influence. However, we have no way to know either way at the moment. I like the possibility of the OP theory, even if I wouldn't put money on it being true

"Not familiar" may have been a bit strong on my part, but his city-kingdom doesn't have any farmland to speak of, so there is no reason for him to have become *so* familiar with it that his inner monologue would use such terms, rather than e.g. "patching and adjusting," which might fit the healer/logical man he is usually characterised to be. It was a question of characterisation, not capacity. I have never thought of Taravangian as a simpleton (even when he is supposed to be simple, he shows advanced emotional intelligence).

On my first listen through after many reads: I think Brandon may have left an Easter egg in support of my theory. In Taravangian's interlude, where his inner monologue explains about how more missed guesses occur the further they get from his "day of brilliance", he talks about patching and altering the diagram. The exact phrase used is (emphasis and capitalisation added). There are definitely other phrases he could have used with the exact same meaning, even some that would have been more in character for Taravangian (by all accounts not a man familiar with agriculture, or the day-to-day of gardening).

Probably any Order for which we don't have an example of their spren saying they are the only one doing what they are doing, e.g. Syl.

I'm sorry I can't cite (I'm on the move at the moment) but I'm pretty sure I've seen a WoB in which he either smiles suggestively or says "RAFO, but good question" or some such to the question of whether the Heralds are even native to Roshar. So maybe they just are Returned

I'd be interested to hear if you have a specific reason for this. You see, I have a theory, linked below, that predicts that Adolin would need to have adopted the first X ideals (as normally required for the Edgedancer Blade to manifest), though not necessarily have vocalised the oaths. However, my theory predicts it would be harder still, requiring the bearer of the dead Blade to have suffered very similar spiritual trauma to that suffered by the Blade's original owner. This, I believe, would qualify for the degree of difficulty/impossibility described in the books/WoB (internalising the ideals could be achieved with just some knowledge and a prolonged period of meditation).

I assume that is why @Jondesu italicised faked. Gotta say that seems more likely than their really taking part, though the effect of breaking the bonds (stopping the blade and plate from glowing) seems hard to fake, from what little we know so far.

Fair enough. I apologise for my response.

I drew more of a parallel with multiple people receiving Honor's visions from the Stormfather, presumably as insurance. But yes, I guess this is possible. Odium/his lackeys massively out-thought Cultivation/the Nightwatcher if this is the case, though.

Granted, but your hunger will never be satisfied (psychological, not physiological). I wish my thesis to be finished.

That would be quite the subterfuge. But... Not really at the expense of the other nine. Perhaps if they instigated the Recreance, having discovered how to revive their spren, then re-instituted their order in secret after essentially destroying the others?

On a re-read, I noticed that in WoR chapter 63 we see a woman in the asylum portion of Dalinar's temple complex writting on the wall of her cell. Pattern (definitely a spren more of Cultivation than of Honor) finds what she is writing unusually interesting: Might this have been another Diagram?

Granted. Said feet replace your ears. I wish for a Cadbury Creme Egg.

I was actually going for an honest comparison. Other than his more limited notion of "us", I think @DarkJester is kinda right in his comparison of their overt politics. I just also think context is important in politics; you need the right tool for the job.

Granted. Everyone you communicate with will stub their toe soon after that communication ends, forever. This results in a slowly built negative association that causes everyone to avoid spending time with you. Because of this boon you easily learn to be happy with your own company, and live the last 20 years of your life a grinning hermit with stacks of Brandon Sanderson books about which no-one is willing to exchange theories with you, but a very successful forest garden. I wish for a portal gun.

@thegatorgirl00 This makes a lot of sense, what with their spren being very much of Cultivation (see heavily-Cultivation abilities of Growth, Lightweaving (creation of lies, so not of Honour), Foretelling) and suited to "great subterfuge" via Lightweaving and Foretelling. However, I feel it is unlikely that their spren would start "returning" with the others if the order never really fell in the first place... On the other hand, it is the only Order in which we have seen more than one spren "returning" to Bond with humans (Ym and Renarin). On the fourth hand (?!), the timing suggests that Renarin was only approached after Ym was killed, so maybe they were still sending one at a time... Tl;dr, I go back and fourth about Truthwatchers :-P

@thegatorgirl00 Wow, that is quite the oversight on my part! Thanks :-) So, ok, what Order have/do people think was the Missing Order? They "entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." So presumably they were more of Cultivation than of Honor. And presumably they are not of one of the Orders we have seen. That can't leave many, but on my phone and my knowledge of this side of things is noticeably lacking :-S

Ah, of course :-( Though I've only seen that said on this forum. How do we know they were Stonewards? I assume I've just missed the pertinent WoBs.