Ciridae

@Calderis Sorry that wasn't solely directed at you, there's just a lack of possible enemies that are powerful enough to pose a threat to the radiants at the time so it's understandable and even logical to consider the Aimians as a possible enemy. It just never felt right to me that the Aimians were fought twice in the history since the last desolation with a lot of time between the two events and not much connecting them. It's still entirely possible, I'm just looking for alternatives at this point. I generally get the feeling that the Aimians are trying to do good, even if, due to their vast understanding of history and magic, that puts them at odds with other characters that don't understand their motivations. Two wars against probable allies just doesn't feel right.

The illustrations. It's just such a nice touch to add to a series with world as diverse and alien as Roshar. Listener forms as well, there is so much potential for cool powers and visuals. Some real voidbringers hopefully, I want to see how their orders work. Your average stormform Listener isn't going to be a serious threat to a radiant, or even some more experienced soldiers. We've only scratched the surface of what the surges do, so I'm excited to see the radiants progress further and finding out how the surges we haven't seen yet work. Pattern, Lift and Taravangian are always highlights as well.

We know there was heavy fighting at the time, we know it was a big enough threat that regular troops were needed or at least kept as reserves along the thousands of Radiants. Edgedance spoilers

Maybe Nale tried to kill two birds with one stone. Orchestrate Gavilar's assassination to stop his plans, and make the Listeners do it to start a war that he expected them to lose, causing the extinction of the last free Listeners. No meddling Gavilar, no potential Everstorm summoners. I'm sure he could have twisted the law to fit what he believed he needed to do. Not sure I believe he was responsible, but if he was, this could have been his motivation.

Gavilar mentions vibrant listeners in the same breath as radiant humans. Maybe Vibrant is part of the title of the KR equivalent of parshendi. The voidbinding chart implies there are orders, there probably is another name for that group other than voidbringers.

I was going to say something similar, the fact that he says Thaidakar is too late implies that he believes he's set of events that will result in the discovery of voidforms. I also think that Gavilar's idea that the Listeners want their gods to return comes from interactions with Venli. It would explain why Gavilar knows Eshonai surprisingly well, and feels that he can just straight up tell her that plan, even if he suspects he faces assassination if the wrong people got wind of it. If he knew Eshonai was Venli's sister, he might expect her to share the same views as her. Tangential, but interesting is that Gavilar seems sure that the ghostbloods knew of his plan and were going to intercede but in the end they didn't, at least not that we know of. I also find interesting that the second person Gavilar suspects to have sent Szeth is Restares, a supposed ally. If the other general in the room besides Amaram really was Restares, I think that Restares might have voiced concerns, resulting in Gavilar questioning his loyalty and suspecting him of sending the assassin. Edit: I agree with @maxal that there are so many tidbits that point to Eshonai being our Willshaper in this chapter. Another hint could be in the chapter name, we know that keenspren are a thing, I'm not sure if they are confirmed to be nahel spren but lets assume they are. I think we got the meaning of keen from a translation as lament or wail, so maybe the chapter heading is a subtle nod to the Willshaper spren. I just hope the spren aren't sad and downbeat the entire time, that would be a little disappointing.

On the dark sphere, interesting that it is slightly violet. So far I've associated red with Odium, because of the red Listener eyes of stormform, but I've always wondered if the colors of the three moons were symbolic for the shards. Blue, green and violet could correspond to Honor Cultivation and Odium respectively. So the dark sphere seems to hold Odium's investiture. It could be the equivalent to stormlight, which is arguably the simplest explanation, but I wonder if it could instead be some kind of key to the ancient spren's prison. Do we have any idea if or how a spren in a regular fabrial can be released without breaking the gemstone? Gavilar says he's seen it done. And what constitutes a special gemstone to hold a god? Big spren=big gemstone? So many questions.. I like that Venli was mentioned, I hope we get her pov eventually.

Granted, but you immediately forget that you have the powers and are basically stuck like Vin at the beginning of TFE, because why would you swallow metal flakes? That would be crazy. I wish for a week of sunshine in this unfairly cold and rainy summer.

I really like that Hoid has been given a larger role in SA, he even has a chapter heading face like the heralds, right? The tiny povs and interactions don't tell us much about him, but I feel like we're supposed to get used to him being around more and playing a more active role. We're slowly but surely getting there. I actually really like that approach. The build up is huge, but I hope the payoff will be worth is. All in all I think the hype is warranted because we know there is so much behind the scenes we don't know about yet.

Their witlessness drove him nuts, He told them their mouthes should stay shut, To get some quiet, You really should try it, Hoid lived in a greatshell's guts Edit: whoops this wasn't meant as a comment on the content of this thread, I honestly love all of these limericks, just as a joke about Hoid complaining about never having any intellectually stimulating company. Sorry if that came across poorly

I think Urithiru might even have radiant prisons. With fabrial elevators and Oathgates, I think a fabrial to keep a radiants from absorbing Stormlight and an uncuttable cell should be doable. I'm thinking a cell made from whatever the Shardblade guards and/or Oathgate keyholes are made out of.

Kingkiller and Stormlight are just about tied for me, but I had to go with Kingkiller in the poll. A lot of the charm of Stormlight for me is knowing that it's part of an even bigger story, and that we'll be getting tons more relatively soon. But as of right now, with only two books in each series, Kingkiller got the vote.

I don't usually join the Adolin discussions because I think other people have a better grip on his character and stronger opinions than I do. And I'm sorry for bringing him up because this will for sure turn into a page long discussion about him if I know the Shard at all The most enjoyable parts of his story to me are the bits of friendly rivalry with Kaladin. A love triangle will make that relationship go sour before you can say Stick. But at the same time I understand that Brandon feels that the story needs a romantic subplot beyond Dalinar and Navani, and these established characters are tempting to use for that purpose. I think Brandon genuinely enjoys writing romance subplots and I have faith in him that it will end up being better than many of us expect it to be at the moment. So fingers crossed.

I think it would have to be Adolin for me. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good character and I think he'll have a lot going for him plot wise and in character development in future books. But I wasn't very interested in his romance plot with Shallan and while I don't mind it overly much, I'm also not looking forward to a continuation in Oathbringer. I know he was vital in WoK to provide a pov of how other people saw Dalinar, but knowing Dalinar was not actually crazy, it was a little frustrating at times. I did enjoy his duels and the budding friendship with Kaladin very much though. I never really thought much about him to be honest until the very end of WoR, and until I joined here. I was very surprised to see how many people adored Adolin and reading all of these enormous threads on his possible future plot developments, like the love triangle dynamic and what order he could belong to really shaped how I view him now. I still don't think he's the most interesting character out of the assembled cast, but I think I understand why a lot of people like him so much. That said, the hype around him is far bigger than the hype around Stick if you ask me ; )

Ah ok I see. But spren bond more than one individual over the course of their existence, would that imply that there are multiple ghost-radiants for each spren? Plus in some cases a live surgebinder? Seems an awful lot of stuff for one spren to be holding on to. I don't know if your average nahel spren has enough investiture to make several radiant Shadows. Simple Connection as a means of keeping them around seems too little to me, I agree with Extesian that it's the incredible amounts of kinetic investiture that turns them into CSs. It just feels simpler. As I understand it that's what happened This WoB is a big part of why I think the stormlight causes them the become CS instead of the spren: This makes me think it is usually a process that takes a lot of time. Returned are admittedly weird, but I think the divine breath isn't stuck to the soul like regular breath, but seeps into the soul and becomes the soul given enough time. This is speculation, but I think in all cases the investiture ends up becoming the soul, so if it was the spren that makes a CS the spren would be consumed to make it.

A lot of points that I agree with wholeheartedly, and a lot that I have to think about some more. I really like the part about glyphwards, Khriss mentioned in the AU essay that fire behaves unusually because of the high-oxygen atmosphere. Maybe there is a realmatic significance as well. On creation of CS because of the Nahel bond, I like the idea and I agree something is going on, but how would this work for the spren? Returned give up their splinter when they heal someone, the investiture is presumably consumed so the Returned can no longer exist in the PR. A certain someone probably absorbed a tiny fraction of the Well. What happens to the spren if they are the cause of the creation of Radiant CS? These are self aware beings with thoughts and feelings afterall. Would it work like it does with the Stormfather, where the Shadow merges with the investiture of the spren? Does the spren sacrifice its investiture to ensure the Radiant is anchored in the CR? We know that a non Radiant surgebinder's death is a traumatic experience for the spren, but the spren is able to bond again. If a full Knight Radiant were to die, would the spren would go with the CR aspect of the Knight, anchor it somehow but survive? I do think the afterlife is messed up and the souls can't move on, but I'm not convinced that it's the spren that makes the Knight into a Shadow. What if it's the prolonged use of investiture combined with a powerful Connection to a Cognitive entity? The amounts of Stormlight we see Kaladin channel are not quite on the level of the Mists but as close as a regular individual is going to get. We know that Honorblades are dangerous because they use vast quantities of Stormlight inefficiently. The Nahel bond is supposed to protect the Radiant from those negative effects, but what if by doing so their soul is slowly permeated by investiture, transforming them into a Shadow over time? Maybe using an Honorblade does the same thing, but more quickly and more violently. The Heralds are already CS, maybe that was how they were made in the first place, and the spren accidentally copied that exact process.

Only vague ideas but Eshonai is solo for a while and because she isn't in political power anymore Odium's focus on her lessens, allowing her to fight more and maybe even free herself from the voidspren. Maybe she will bond with the comet spren, maybe not yet, but I think we'll see her join up with the group of non stormform listeners and join them. They may join the humans at some point, which should facilitate finding new non void forms. I desperately want a chapter from Venli's perspective, she should be a treasure trove of information about forms, Unmade etc. I want to kniw what she's up to. I hope we get new void-listener forms, I'd say this is basically a given. We'll start seeing actual Voidbringers, that use the voids(?) from the voidbinding chart. I'm very excited about the illustrations, I think we may see a Kholinar map and maybe an actual fabrial/gemheart magic explanation sheet. I would love to get a detailed image of one or more listener forms. More fauna and flora as well, I can never get enough of that. If we're lucky a clearer image of the larkin, and if Shallan stumbles across some old sketches maybe lanceryn. But I've got a feeling we'll have to wait for Rysn's larkin to grow up until we get to see what they looked like. More fabrial discoveries of course, Navanni could perhaps reverse engineer some of the simpler mechanisms in Urithiru, or find plans how to build some of the more complicated ones. More radiants join the main cast, my money is still on the apothecary becoming a lightweaver, and Kaladin will bring back whoever he finds in Kholinar.

I could see a change of heart in Amaram once he sees what he has done first hand. Perhaps once he learns that his god is dead and the heralds aren't who he thought they were anymore and that humanity has to face the desolation alone. If he accepts his mistakes and does some serious introspection facing each of his misdeeds as a truth and actively trying to better himself, I could see him becoming a lightweaver.

Are the 'thick hairpins' in Mraize's trophy room kandra blessings? Mraize is a self proclaimed hunter, I'm sure he'd rather hunt a potentially dangerous shape shifting secret agent than visit a world and bring back some old metal bits that wouldn't have any significance to him personally.

Yeah I think Death's speed was mentioned in the annotations as a result of him being Returned. But Tonk Fah... When talking to Thame in chapter 22: Maybe he's slightly tapping strength here. Suddenly bulging muscles. Constantly needing to rest during the day, like inquisitors. Urges to torture animals. In company of a known worldhopper. I think Tonk Fah is the most likely candidate. And

I've always been a little confused about the Shin revering the spirits of stones, among sun and stars. On Roshar spirit should translate to spren, but if there are no spren in Shinovar what are the spirits? I think it's probable that only large and powerful spren can manifest in Shinovar. I think at one point Szeth notes that the spirits of the stones promised that he was truthless. So if they are spren they are sapient and able to communicate in the physical realm.

In Dalinar's first vision two radiants fight against midnight essence. The male radiant is a Windrunner and the female radiant is described as having "light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night". Her armor is not described, but we know from another vision that Stonewards have Plate that glows amber at the joints. (WoK chapter 52, when Stonewards and Windrunners show up at Feverstone Keep.) We know from those same visions and from Kaladin that Winrunners get blue eyes amd plate, matching their polestone and the color of their order on surgebinding chart. Following that pattern the other orders' eyes and plate should correspond similarly. Assuming this is correct, the female radiant in Dalinar's first vision would be a Stoneward. So in the two instances that we see multiple orders of the ancient radiants interacting with one another, we see Stonewards and Windrunner's acting together. Why is that? Do their surges complement one another well in battle? We don't see an active use of surges when they fight the midnight essence. Is it because both order's seem to be battle oriented? Both of these reasons might be a factor, but I think the real reason is that some of the Stonewards may have been Windrunner squires before, and vice versa. Picture this. A Stoneward squire learns about standing in the face of adversary, about protecting and standing where others fall from their Knight. They are trained as a warrior. They have it easier than most to become a radiant, they are familiar with spren, the orders and using stormlight. This squire is a natural leader and while they have had the most contact with Stonewards, an honorspren picks up on them. Both orders seem to value the lives of others over their own and would sacrifice their own wellbeing to protect others. I think the oaths of the two orders will end up being similar enough that squires under one order will have a the opportunity to interpret them in a way that attracts the spren of the other order. So all of a sudden you have Windrunners and Stonewards that are very familiar with the other order and most likely still have buddy radiants that used to be squires with them. Naturally these like-minded, battle oriented orders with strong social bonds still in place are going to fight alongside one another. I'm not sure if this would have been something unique between these two orders or if it was common among the other orders as well. Probably less common among Lightweavers, but I could see Truthwatchers and Edgedancers experiencing something similar, what with all the altruistic tendencies. We still know so little about the other orders, their oaths and how they interacted with one another, but what do you think? Is it too far fetched or within reason?

Eshonai also feels the Thrill at the end of WoR. I don't think Nergaoul is selective about making people violent.

I really like the theory, even if I'm not sure I completely buy it. @maxal Proto-radiants are only difficult to kill when they have access to stormlight and we don't know if Tien did when he died. Good point about Pattern saying he was the only one sent, but between him crossing over and Tien's death are several years so we can't be sure he's the only one by then. This is all hypothetical, but I disagree that it doesn't add anything to the story. We still don't understand why Shallan was several oaths/truths into her radianthood at such a young age, before the deaths of her family members. What memories could she possibly have been repressing at that age? If we knew that Tien was a proto Lightweaver, that would give us another point of reference that Shallan's age might not have been an anomaly, and that perhaps becoming a Lightwever is not necessarily about rediscovering repressed memories, but more generally about becoming more self aware. Speaking truths in Shallan's case means facing her past, but for another it could mean growing more mature. Children would be ideal candidates in that case. So it may not add much more to the plot, but I think it would let us extrapolate some things about how Lightweaver's function and why Cryptics chose the people that they do.

That might be a good idea, I've only read the Warbreaker annotations so far. I didn't mean TLR would, maybe that was poor phrasing on my part, sorry. Just wondering about why Ruin didn't. The thing is, he did go through the trouble of finding all the Feruchemists and buffing the already powerful Inquisitors. But I guess you're right and it doesn't really matter in the end.