Kingsdaughter613

Ace of Spears @AonEne Kelsier frowned at the lack of response. “Marie?” he asked, concern seeping into his voice. He reached out to her, compounding their Connection and felt something - someone - familiar blocking him. Ah. “Hello, Saze.” @Condensation Eryn awoke as the sun began to rise. She shivered, quickly tapping her bronze to warm herself back up. Her master had yet to return, it seemed. Well, he could always find her if he needed her. The child needed clothes.

Torment

@AonEne Kelsier wandered through the wreck of the camp. He nodded at Sage as he passed her. She was taking notes again, he noted. He’d have to get her some copper. He found Marie standing over a bloodied corpse, a hole through the body’s chest. Interesting. He hadn’t expected the Inquisitor to give herself another spike, opening herself to further risk. He raised a brow. “A tent peg? Interesting choice. What did you steal?” Dockson Mare

Eshonai

Poverty

Tien

Covet

Kelsier.

Definitely a reasonable time. Though he’s usually out by 12. 11... not so much. Yep! Snowy New York!

I wish. Then I could frighten my son back into bed at night by making him think I’m standing right behind him. TPBM wishes seven year old boys would go to bed without complaint and stay there until morning.

Which makes it odd that he deliberately misled the North regarding who The Sovereign was. And doesn’t want them to know still, although I don’t see how it will be kept secret. I tend to go with Survivor’s Spearhead.

@mathiau I actually put that last line in because I suspected the person I was arguing with was referencing RoW and wanted them to either clarify that they weren’t or admit they were. I was getting rather frustrated because I couldn’t properly argue points as the other person wasn’t clarifying their points. I don’t know that he’s not listening to her though. There’s some indications that he’s trying to consider Fuzz’s words, at least with regard to the Scadrians, as he doesn’t seem to want them to know he’s about. He’s not someone who changes easily though, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he isn’t.

You’re welcome!

The Southerners name Herr and Frau as their gods. There is as much evidence that they misunderstood Kelsier as that he intentionally misled them. The Sovereign is their king; they do not refer to him as a god except in the general ‘all metalborn are gods’ sense. We haven’t seen his actual actions there; 300 years later things get warped. And Kelsier has made sure to remain scarce for all the centuries since, allowing both halves of Scadrial to develop on their own. Harmony is more directly involved, from what we can tell. And Saze has also been ‘lying and manipulating’, or did you forget the whole of SoS? Sorry, but would you prefer Kelsier didn’t save the South? If he hadn’t, they’d be dead now. If he’d gone with Vin there would be no South Scadrial. And if he’d gone when he was ‘supposed to’ there would be no Scadrial at all. The Set probably know from Trell, actually. Finding bindpoints generally requires some kind of Shardic intervention. We’ve seen four major groups of Shadows: Shades, which are specifically less aware than others. Returned, who seem to be fine. Heralds, who have weird things like the broken Oathpact and more mundane ones like being tortured for millenia. Fused, who take over other people’s bodies and are repeatedly reborn within a short time of being killed. Why should we assume Kelsier wouldn’t be fine like the Returned are?

I think they were Northeast of Luthadel, actually. I have a thread about this in the Mistborn forum if you want to discuss it there. We can’t triangulate though, as we only have two points. We can only get a convergence point. Brandon had his nine book plan for Mistborn laid out when he wrote the trilogy. There is foreshadowing for Era 3 in Era 1. (Trell being the most obvious.) There may even be Era 4 foreshadowing. HoA was published in 2008. WoK was published in 2010. By that time Brandon had already conceived of the Dawnshards as they are mentioned in the latter book.

Those are philosophical opinions. There are others. The books don’t consider Returned dead, but do consider Hoed Elantrians dead. There are multiple opinions of what constitutes death and we know that lacking a tie to one realm does not stop someone from being alive (see Spren). Brandon seems to use ‘dead’ for convenience. He also talks about the difference between ‘dead’ and really ‘dead’ in the Cosmere. One you can come back from and the other you can’t. Pseudo-death might be more accurate, or not-quite alive. He’s also referred to the Cognitive Realm as the afterlife and the Beyond as the after-after life, despite the CR clearly not being an afterlife. And Wax was as ‘dead’ as someone whose heart stops and is subsequently resuscitated. According to you my older daughter is dead because she ‘died’ multiple times while sick. Wax’s ties to the three realms weren’t cut (and I notice you have no problem with his decision to be resuscitated). You also didn’t answer my questions. You keep saying it’s a ‘bad idea’ to remain a Shadow, but you won’t explain why beyond deliberately misreading sections of text. You also haven’t explained why you think Kelsier is ignoring Vin’s words, because we haven’t seen any evidence of that. Considering the care he’s gone to to keep his presence hidden, it seems he’s trying to avoid unduly manipulating his followers which would indicate that he’s trying to listen to Leras at least.

The text specifically notes that it’s ‘the same direction.’ That would indicate that it’s the same place. Saze also notes that he doesn’t know what Leras was doing with Elend, so it’s unlikely Leras was pointing to the Pits. Yes, both were Leras. Ruin had no reason to try and tell Elend to go there at that point.

And I don’t consider them dead until all ties to the three realms are cut. If something halts the process than they aren’t dead. This is a philosophical argument and your opinion is NOT the only valid one. Kelsier doesn’t consider himself dead. Knowing something is not the same as feeling it. Nazh is offended that the process wasn’t done ‘properly’, not concerned. I never mentioned Heralds. And you misgendered Edgli. And Shardic opinions are not necessarily correct or wise and Brandon has noted that Edgli is ‘inconsistent.’ The Returned seem to be doing fine. If it’s such a bad idea, why hasn’t 600 year old Warbreaker given up his Divine Breath yet? And you keep mentioning negative effects: care to expand on those? Leras was lucid when he Preserved Kelsier. His entire demeanor changes. When he did it, he did it for a reason. That reason is unknown (but Scadrial would have been destroyed if Kelsier went Beyond then, so...) Kelsier asks Vin to stay. It would be reasonable to flip it around and ask him to stay with her, even if she knows he won’t. She could then tell him what she does. She doesn’t, which is quite interesting. Sazed refuses to resurrect Kelsier because ‘Sazed believes in Kelsier more than Kelsier does.’ This implies to me that Sazed knew something and was trying to nudge Kelsier in a particular direction. It’s possible Sazed knew Kelsier’s studies on hemalurgy were necessary to save South Scadrial. Sorry, what lies and manipulations? Last we saw Kelsier was saving all of South Scadrial. Who would all have frozen to death if Kelsier had gone with Vin (which I think both Vin and Saze knew). I think they’d argue that him staying was a very good thing. Oh, and don’t double post.

There’s also Spook, which is yet another name for Ghost. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ‘Ghost’ is a reference to both Kelsier and Spook. Blood is probably in reference to Hemalurgy, which was something they studied together. It also seems to be reference to how Kelsier was resurrected. It could also be a reference to Spook’s children, of which he had many. It could also be used metaphorically: the people of Scadrial as Kelsier’s metaphorical children. Or the North as Spook’s ‘children’ and the South as Kelsier’s.

Yeah... confusing... Apparently the mis-naming is due to the aforementioned “aluminum foil is called tinfoil” confusion. I knew tinfoil was real, so I thought the hats must have been made from it originally. Turns out no... Still, Scadrians do actually use the right term and I suspect most Cosmerians would too, so the original point stands.

Leras points Northeast twice. Once in HoA and once in WoA. In HoA Elend - and the text - note that Leras is pointing in the SAME direction. If you make two lines pointing Northeast at the same angle from the two locations they converge in the lower, far eastern Terris mountains. Elend was above and to the east of the Pits the first time Leras pointed, so this could not be what Leras was trying to indicate as the text implies he was trying to lead Elend to the same place twice. Interestingly, The Sovereign’s Temple is located nearly due South of the same portion of the range. That might be a coincidence though. Brandon has RAFOd the weapon, btw, which is why many suspect it isn’t what we’re supposed to think.

Exactly where it was. The Northern continent looks the same as it did.

Actually, tin foil is made of tin: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil It was the precursor to aluminum foil. Some people still mistakenly refer to aluminum foil by the term.

Ah. I thought you were saying a person couldn’t be ‘very like’ something. My mistake.

I wasn’t complaining about the warning. I was pointing out that from his perspective it’s suicide. That is how Kelsier perceives it. Whether he’s right or wrong is irrelevant. Kelsier doesn’t really consider himself dead. Whether he’s right or wrong - and I believe he’s more right than wrong - doesn’t matter. From your perspective he is, from mine he isn’t, but the only one whose perspective matters here is Kelsier’s. And, as an aside, Tanavast definitely had a choice and chose to stay. Returned are given the option to stay; for every one we’ve seen there are likely dozens that refuse. None of them had to stay. It was a choice. And Edgli is pretty haphazard about who she offers the option to, btw. And Preservation had a choice too. He was lucid when he Preserved Kelsier. Preservation saw something and decided to Preserve Kelsier for that reason. So ultimately it was a Shard’s decision and Kelsier’s Preservation had a purpose. And I don’t think that purpose has been fulfilled. I think Vin saw it, and I think says knows it too. Preservation wanted Kelsier Preserved for a reason and that’s why Vin doesn’t try to convince him to go Beyond with her. Instead she explains why she is choosing to go. Oh, and reread SH. NO ONE tells Kelsier sticking around has negative consequences. All he’s told is that his choice to remain is inexplicable, despite it being clear that most ‘runners’ are unwilling to go either. He doesn’t know of any possible consequences. Personally I see no reason for anyone not ready to go Beyond not to try to find a way to stick around until they are. I don’t see Shadows - bodies or not - as dead and I don’t think they should have to die if they can avoid it. Life is hope, even if it’s only a half life. Oh, and none of your comments on Kelsier’s character come remotely close to answering the OPs question. She wasn’t asking if Kelsier ‘deserved’ the warning (and does anyone ever ‘deserve’ anything?); she was asking why Vin chose her last words to be so harsh. So maybe try answering the actual question being asked?