NovaSeeker

Wouldn't matter by the time Wax got there. It was well over 300 years after Kelsier broke the Pits. If they were going to make atium again, they would have by the time Wax got there, but they weren't.

Okay, fair enough, but that's not what the argument was. Yata and you were arguing that he wouldn't even try to make the metal if he knew it had gold in it, because of some ability to predict what an alloy of gold would do. I was arguing that just because you knew gold's effects, you could in no way predict the exact abilities of its alloy with any certainty until you actually burned it for yourself. Was Keslier confused by the metal? Sure. But only after making and burning it himself. (And my point about outlining Copper and Bronze's effects was not about proving which metal was more useful, it was to prove, with direct observational evidence, that Copper and Bronze do NOT have equal and opposite effects. There is no opposite to Copper's brass/zinc immunity. Does that make copper "more usefull"? I don't care. It shows that you cannot predict every single last ability that a metal and its alloy will have by just looking at one of them.)

Aluminum?

No worries Keep on keepin' on

But I'm not using any "interpretation" when I'm outlining the differences in Copper and Bronze. These are the facts of their abilities as presented. They are not equal, because Copper does more than Bronze. That can't be denied. Or can it? I'm interested if you have an explanation or example for Copper's additional effect having a direct opposite in what Bronze does.

I think it's the fact that I sorta view the entire process of mistwraith digestion as being a single-stage stomach. I would be just as disturbed by human oral sex if saliva were as caustic as stomach acid. (And I've always pictured kandra as being able to digest matter really really quickly.) I suppose this is all just from my own personal assumptions about how mistwraiths/kandra work. So I guess it may very well just be me then.... Carry on!

The Blessings are hemalurgical spikes, which contain at least the partial essense of a soul. That can't be denied. However, it does not necessarily follow the mistrwaiths do not have souls. Everything in the Cosmere has a soul. A stick has a soul. My theory is that later generation mistwraiths (second and beyond) were born with animalistic, non-sentient souls (akin to the soul that a slug might have). The insertion of a Blessing expands this soul in the same way a human soul is expanded by taking up a Shard. The removal of a Blessing takes away this power, this causes the original mistwraith soul to "deflate". As its physical and cognitive aspect remain out of sync for longer and longer, aspects of its former identity as a kandra bleed away and it's cognitive aspect is "forced" to resemble its physical aspect, or body, more and more. But if the connection is simply cut, by death, the cognitive aspect has nothing to pull it toward that animalistic state any longer, meaning Paalm's soul would not be trying to revert to an animalistic state as she talked to Harmony and went into the Beyond. As for why using a different Spike if you don't already have your own is taboo, imagine if Vin took up Preservation, relinquished it, then took up Ruin. She wouldn't be the same, would she?

THUG. IN. SHARDPLATE.

Wax climbs up the Pits in Shadows of Self, and they were no longer producing Atium. It's safe to say that if there is any new Atium being created, Harmony has decided not to use the Pits to do it.

hwilies: The problem with a Thug in fullplate is that he'd be savvy enough to not wear any metal that a coinshot or lurcher could exploit. Unless that armor was significantly Invested in some w- THUG IN SHARDPLATE

Kooz's breakdown of "Trell's" actions and known motivations is very helpful in determining this things identity. While Odium is most likely the answer, my current wildly speculative theory is that "Trell" is not any shard, but is in fact the force opposed to Adonalsium Furthermore, the Red Rip/Taln's Scar/Starbelt is another galaxy created by this "opposing force", and it is currently on a collision course with the dwarf galaxy where Cosmere novels have taken place, just like how Andromeda is on a collision course with the Milky Way in real life (we only have billions and billions of years left to impact!). I think this would be a cool way to foreshadow a climactic, sci-fi conflict with an invasion from outside known space. The "mass of bright red stars" would just be an odd astrological feature that would fit in any fantasy story, but hides an astronomical feature that's a sci-fi looming threat.

Am I the only one more disturbed by the fact that well.... intercourse with a female-form kandra is alarmingly similar to how kandra take in biological material and DIGEST IT? (There's even a mention of MeLaan recognizing Wayne's "taste". SHUDDER)

So Pewter causes you ignore sight and sound and touch? Of course not. Can pewter stop your ears from ringing if there's an explosion near you? Probably, but it's not going to make your ability to hear dampen any, which would actually be opposite what Tin does. They are thematically opposed, but they are not opposites in a practical, applicable way like Iron and Steel are. And even ignoring pewter/tin, my case can still be made with copper/bronze. Pretend that Bronze was the fabled 11th metal. You only have experience with Copper. You know that Copper is the mental, internal, pulling metal. It lets you 1) hide allomantic pulses near you, and 2) grants you personal immunity to the mental external metals. Based on the alloy principles, you can surmise that Bronze will be the legendary mental, internal, pushing metal that no one has ever discovered before. And if you believe "EVERY push has a pull", you would guess that Bronze will let you 1) discover allomantic pulses near you, and 2) will make you more susceptible to the mental external metals. Except that's not what it does. Coppers #2 HAS no corresponding Push in Bronze. Bronze has no #2, and is even more useful than you thought. And you would never have known this based purely on conjecture, on extrapolating from the rules of alomancy as you perceived them. You would only know by actually creating the allomantic Bronze alloy and burning it. Which is why Kelsier could not know exactly what malatium would do without knowing how to create it and burning it himself.

Because her words can speak to a diffuse cultural standard descended from actual knowledge of Awakening. As in, there was once one or more Awakeners on Scadrial, who may have been pretty famous or infamous. Enough that people knew that their "magic" involved the speaking of Commands. Then the Awakeners left or died or whatever. Over time the stories of what they could do became legends. Over time those legends became diffuse cultural ideas about what magic was like "in fairy tales", ala "speaking command phrases".

Not all mistwraiths were feruchemists. When Rashek Ascended, all feruchemists became mistwraiths, which then became their own species and had baby mistwraiths that were never human to begin with. Mistwraiths live and die (as per Sazed's epigraphs in Hero of Ages) as mindless animals. All kandra of Second or higher generations were never feruchemists to begin with.

Perhaps the Kandra do not consider the original holder to have "ascended". Leras got his power from the Shattering, which the kandra may or may not know about. The other 4 were mortals born on Scadrial, who took up the mantle.

theuntaintedchild: Great. Now I can't think of anything but a chull in a tophat and monocle. Shut up and take my upvote. EDIT: It has a big bushy walrus-like mustache too.

Aaah, thanks rabidhexely! That clears it up for me. Somewhere along the way I got "a coppermind anyone can use" confused with "a metalmind that grants the ability to burn copper".

Then I submit that Yata is merely incorrect. Keslier took the notebook from the noble he killed describing the 11th metal. This is apparently the story of how Kelsier came to possess Malatium, but at the end of the story he only has a set of notes on experiments. What would those notes contain if not the method to make Malatium? How would Keslier be able to get the bar of Malatium he has in The Final Empire if he didn't create it from these notes? If he got it from some place other than these notes, then why is the story where he gets these notes entitled "The 11th Metal"? Also the point I was making about pewter/tin and copper/bronze was twofold. The question of usefulness is, as you say, subjective. But my other point was that these pairings do wildly different things. Enhancing your endurance, strength, and healing is in no way directly related to enhancing your senses. These are not "opposites". And while detecting and hiding allomantic pulses might be opposites, copper has an additional effect of granting immunity to two metals that has no correlation to bronze whatsoever. There is no possible way Keslier could have automatically discounted the effectiveness of Malatium because "oh, it has gold in it, so obviously it can ONLY do one of these things." At the very least he would at least have to make the bar and test it to know what it does, to see if it's effects aren't wildly different like Pewter/tin, or if there isn't some opposite+extra benefit effect like copper/bronze.

Keslier is friggin hilarious all the way through, but Hoid stole the spotlight for me when he interrupted himself to leap into the Well.

Here's an idea.. The Evil that came to Threnody is native to Sel. The Sel people Kelsier encounters specifically mention a blockade of Threnody. What if what the Sels are actually doing is blockading all souls from Threnody from passing through to the Beyond? Which leaves Threnody infested with Shades.

Secret History spoiler Also, it should be noted that Malatium is also an alloy of ATIUM, the best of the best metal there is. Perhaps the composition of Malatium is some very very high percentage of Atium compared to gold, so Kelsier might assume that the vast majority of Malatium's usefulness would be inherited from its atium portion. Also, Malatium's effects are actually pretty coincidental. Malatium does not belong on the table of allomantic metals, and it is not in a Push/Pull pairing with Gold (That would be Electrum). True, Kelsier wouldn't know this, but he also couldn't reasonably expect it to conform to the 10-metal table, because it was an alloy of both "high metals".

The patch of red stars visible from Roshar is called "Taln's Scar" by the natives of Roshar. The patch of red stars visible from Scadrial is called "The Red Rip" by the natives of Scadrial. The patch of red stars visible from Threnody is called "The Starbelt" by the natives of Threnody. The Red Rip and the Starbelt are confirmed to be the same stars, and are also confirmed to be visible "from other worlds as well". While it hasn't been confirmed that Taln's Scar is the same thing explicitly, I think it must be. And while the Eyes of Trell aren't linked to The Red Rip specifically, we also know that this "Trell" entity is presented to Wax by Harmony as a raze haze from space. I had no idea about these theories revolving around Taladin, and that's pretty interesting. Is that all WoB? I don't want to be spoiled for the upcoming White Sands graphic novel though... Anyway, I don't think a single shattered planet (as cool as that sounds) would produce red "stars" visible from several different solar systems.

Their themes are matched, sure, but I was pointing out their practical effects are not at all similar, and the "usefulness" disparity between them. Pewter and Tin both enhance you. Sure. But in practical terms of use, they are wildly different effects, and I (and Spook) would probably say that Pewter is the more useful ability. Copper and Bronze both have ties to allomantic pulses. Fine. But Copper also blocks two entire other metals and trumps its alloy pairing entirely (Bronze will never be able to detect copper, assuming a seeker and a smoker of equal allomantic strength) So Gold and Malatium would ostensibly both interact with time. Okay. But there's no reason to assume Malatium would be just as useless as gold. Because there is precedent (as with pewter and copper) of alloy pairings having disparate levels of usefulness.

I love Steris. When I first met Steris, she seemed like an uptight, controlling, political-influence-version-of-a-golddigger. When they went to the wedding party, it seemed as if she would make an awful shrew of a wife to Wax, and would do nothing but nag him and tie him down. And I think she actually would have been, if she hadn't been kidnapped. I'm pretty sure, with all of her planning and lists, she NEVER ONCE thought to find herself in that situation. And to have her betrothed, someone she was already resigned and committed to performing her "wifely duties" for, come to save her in spectacularly dashing fashion, well... she fell in love. (You can practically pinpoint the moment where this happens) And ever since that moment, she'd become fully invested on being the best wife to Wax she could be. Obviously this included showing an interest in his hobbies... and some sensitive research...