VirtuousTraveller

This is going to sound crazy, but do we know for certain that Threnody exists in the Physical Realm? The eerie landscape almost feels like Shadesmar in a way with the mysterious dark forest. We've seen other Sel-Threnody involvement with the Ire in SH. Also, in the Cognitive Realm, we see the Ire have a beautiful fortress, which made me think about the "fort folk" that Silence references. When you think of the Fallen World, perhaps these people are referring back to Sel before they had to escape into the Cognitive Realm, where their collective imagination creates this terrible place (named in memorial for their lost world - perhaps following Odium's wake on Sel? Perhaps after the Fjordell Empire/Skaze/Svrakiss cause major issues on Sel?) It's a stretch, but I wonder if Threnody's issue is an odd blurring of boundaries between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. If it doesn't exist solely in the Cognitive, I wonder if it's possible for it to be sitting in between both?

You would think she would stand out like Vasher/Zahel do, with their color-based analogies and maybe a passing glance of those Royal Locks (someone notices the same woman with different colored hair at different moments/times). I hope that Vasher opened up to her and shared all that "Five Scholars" knowledge with her, as he doesn't seem to have any friends. Those kind of secrets would drive a person insane after so long!

Interesting connection between the Worldsingers and Scadrial - perhaps Hoid was behind their attempts to "snap" Rosharians into becoming surgebinders? He would have seen this form of Investiture Initiation while mingling in the Mistborn storyline.

Upvote for the epic WoB snipe job there! =)

This is so exciting! =) I haven't been this excited about reading since Harry Potter - I'm so glad that this wonderful (and absolutely horrible) anticipation of book releases will continue for what sounds like the rest of my adult life! =)

What does Nightblood do with the Investiture it consumes? Is this one of those "conservation of energy" scenarios where the energy of Investiture cannot be created or destroyed, but changed/transformed into something else? If so, it's possible carving a direct IV line of Investiture into Nightblood would just create a never-ending cycle that could render it useless, omnipotent...or just destroy the cosmere :-P

I just started a topic on this very subject. I like the idea of Odium's strategy of splintering involving the creation of sentient splinters. The seons and skaze are clearly not splinters in and of themselves, but rather the aons / misty symbols they contain are. I wonder if this technology that brings about sentience is what prevents the Investiture from pooling together again (like the Well of Ascension). How would one even go about combining two seons? It doesn't seem possible from what we know at this point. Could one combine two spren together? Unlikely!

I wonder if you inscribed aons like these on Nightblood's hilt if you could somehow feed it's unquenchable hunger, overwhelming IT with the Dor and somehow destroying/suppressing it's sentience.

All of this will be a theory until we get facts to prove otherwise :-P I'm basing the idea of Innate Investiture existing in all people on Galledon's explanation of Jesker, that the Dor exists in everything. Since Jesker is an ancient religion, I'm thinking its mythos reaches all the way back to the beginning of life on Sel. Check out my new theory on this over here!

What can we infer about the skaze, which are barely mentioned at all in Elantris, yet somehow are very relevant to the parts of the story we do not yet know? Brandon refers to skaze as "evil seons" in the annotations of Elantris. They are related to Skai (via WoB). They have a large amount of influence on most politics and most workings in Fjordell (via WoB). Dilaf had information from the skaze that the Elantrians were not indestructible (Elantris chapter 62). They can speak, they are "a hovering dark sphere, the size of a melon," they suck in light, have undefined edges that warp the light around them, they are ringed with a pattern of misty symbols, "running like a hoop from its top down the side to its bottom," have a wide range of emotions, and are a synthetic race (Elantris postscript) I've seen it mentioned that we assume they are splinters of Dominion, but I'm not so certain. We don't read that anywhere and if there is a relevant WoB on the subject, I haven't seen it either. I understand that they seem similar to seons, which contain splinters of Devotion (aons), but how can something "synthetic" like a skaze be a splinter anyway (unless seons are artificially created too)? Are the misty symbols aons? It would be odd to not refer to them as so, unless they weren't. We know from Elantris that the Fjordell Empire has changed significantly over the centuries. "Wyrn the King" was edited significantly to add in modern understandings of Shu-Dereth, and Jaddeth was originally a minior god in their culture that cared for rocks under the earth, not this super god they claim him to be now. The skaze seem to be creating a "Dominion" like influence on Fjordell, but for what purpose? What do you think about the skaze? (also, please don't be that one person who only posts a correction to something I say, but don't actually answer the question :-P)

*After reflecting on this, I've changed the name of this theory from "Why the Dor Exists in the Cognitive Realm" to "The Origin of the Dor." I think this better captures the Intent of my post! In a conversation over on Yata's Theory about the splintering and death of Aona (Devotion) and Skai (Dominion), I've realized that I would like to propose a theory about the Dor and why it exists in the Cognitive Realm. I believe that the Dor has always existed, intentionally (not the result of splintering). Aona and Skai were lovers, whose relationship was a perfect example of "unity." When they took up the power of the shards Devotion and Dominion, this relationship remained, and they went to Sel together. While we see Preservation and Ruin working in direct opposition to one another on Scadrial, Devotion and Dominion were fused together in perfect unity, guided by the relationship of their Vessels. Aona and Skai created all things together on Sel, placing Innate Investiture in all things in the form of the Dor (similar to Preservation). Jesker is the most ancient religion we know about on Sel, and per Galladon it teaches that the Dor exists in everything. To me, this predates any information we otherwise have about Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth, which only appeared within the last few centuries or so on Sel (by the influence of Keshu, a possible worldhopper). By why would the Dor, this divine force of power, exist in the Cognitive Realm? Because, like so many things in life, it's all about RELATIONSHIPS! When two people come together, entering a state of intimacy with one another, they remain two separate individuals, yet create a third, new thing called a relationship. The relationship is a separate entity from both parties, and yet they are both actively participating in it. This new "thing" is the cognitive creation of both people involved, the fusion of shared hopes, dreams, goals, plans, etc. While you can't touch a relationship, it is absolutely a real thing, with power and influence that exists even after someone dies or the relationship ends. This is what I propose occurred with Aona and Skai. They fused the divine power of Devotion and Dominion (which exists in the Spiritual Realm separately) into one new power/shard we understand as the Dor/Unity. This Unity shard never existed in the Spiritual or Physical Realms, yet just like a relationship, it was completely real. It makes sense to me that something like this would have to exist in the Cognitive Realm, as it was made reality by Aona and Skai - the example of perfect, unified love. Brandon, writing from the Christian influence of his own life, would be very familiar with the Biblical concepts of the origin of relationships when God spoke to Adam and Eve: Aona and Skai, bound together as one, created the "one flesh" that we know as the Dor. This was all well and good until Rayse (Odium) stepped in and killed them. *Pause for moment of sadness :*( While the participants in the relationship died (Aona and Skai), the relationship itself (Unity) lived on, albiet very messily because now, that power resting in the Cognitive Realm, originally unified and guided by two divine Identities, has no divine Identity other than the original Intents of Devotion and Dominion to guide it. Plus, whatever effect splintering a shard has on said Intents is also affecting it. There it is! =) I know much of this is speculation, but until we learn more from an Elantris sequel/prequel, this is how I understand it!

...when it's 10:30am and you start scavenging around your office looking for any scraps of food, as the hunger is driving you INSANE!

That would make sense. I wonder if this gives us a hint about what "Evil" is, as Hoid and Rayse (Odium) were once friends (and likely shook hands at some point :-P)

I've just started listening to SSFH again and these very first sentences jump out at me. This almost sounds like a description of a worldhopper. This is the first time I'm reading this novella in awhile, so please enlighten me if we have some good theories about what this may be referencing!

...you feel like you're uncovering an ancient work of art when wiping the layer of dust off of your TV stand :-P

I hadn't considered their murder and splitting being so ancient. It's insane to think that thousands of years may have occurred since then on Sel, as that makes any of this irrelevant on the beginnings of the religions of Shu-Keseg hundreds of years in the past. I'm still pretty convinced the Dor was the result of the intentional fusion of Aona's and Skai's power, and has existed since the beginning of time on Elantris. The most ancient religion we know, Jesker, views the Dor as existing in all things, as an overseer of all things. It's not that everyone on Sel has a little Devotion or a little Dominion in them, but rather they all have the Dor in them left over from the joint creation of the Unity shard-power (like Preservation pouring himself into all living things in the creation process on Scadrial). I never considered Keshu to be a worldhopper...this would make a lot of sense, especially if knowledge of the original power of creation (the Dor) had been destroyed thousands of years before his time. Perhaps this religion/history would make more sense if we knew what sort of information was recorded in the Do-Keseg! Odium's agent(s) on Sel...you mean the svrakiss? =) Perhaps these are related to the Skaze somehow, which Brandon described as "evil seons." Evil matches up with the idea of svrakiss and Odium, but these creatures still confuse me greatly!

I love this theory - the idea of a Unity shard just seems so clear from reading Elantris. What isn't clear, however, is the timeline for me. Here are some facts we know: We know Aona and Skai came to Sel together, and we know that they, separately, held the two shards of Devotion and Dominion. We know that hundreds of years prior to the events of Elantris, Odium/Rayse came to Sel and killed both Aona and Skai and "that which they held has been splintered" (according to The Letter in tWoK) What doesn't quite add up is how these facts match up with the timeline of the major religions on Sel: The Jesker religion (Duladel), viewed as an ancient religion, worshiped the Dor as a great overspirit of the land, present in all things. Keshu (a man from Jindo) preached about "Unity," but then his two followers "splintered (my word)" this original idea into two competing religions with unity as a focus, but through two different means (Devotion - Shu-Korath; Dominion - Shu-Dereth). So, what was it? In ancient times, were there two divine forces (Devotion and Dominion) or one (Overspirit/the Dor/Unity)? Did two separate shards with two different intents exist separately when Odium appeared to splinter them? I don't think so. I can imagine that the scenario of two shards working opposed to one another (like Preservation and Ruin) would have a natural opposite - two shards working directly, in full communion, with and as a part of one another (one god in two parts). I think that Aona and Skai, originally through their intense/romantic commitment to one another, somehow combined their powers into one overarching force (i.e. Unity; the Dor), but then when killed/splintered by Odium, the original intents of their shards resurfaced in odd ways (the Seons and Skaze, for example). (Random aside, I don't understand what makes the Skaze evil - it doesn't seem to me from what we know that Skai was a bad person; perhaps the idea of dominion over others, without a moral compass, is what makes them bad. They confuse me greatly, especially as Hoid refers to them as a "synthetic" race in the postscript of the 10th anniversary edition of Elantris). So here's the timeline I propose: Adonalsium is splintered into 16 shards (including Devotion and Dominion, separately) Aona and Skai, as romantic lovers, take these two shards and become Vessels. Aona and Skai travel to Sel and through their love, combine the shards into one super shard (or two shards working in perfect unity), creating the Dor, which exists in all things by nature. Because their (Aona and Skai) idea of Unity not being the true Spiritual Realm power of their original shards, the Dor as a power exists in the Cognitive Realm (where two divinities create a reality through the ideal of "unity"), which is a mess once the two minds that held it together are killed by Odium/Rayse. Odium/Rayse appears and splinters "that which they held," (the word "that" being singular perhaps?), causing the Dor, originally fueled by the Unity of two shards, to lose itself into not only the original intents of Devotion and Dominion, but splinters of its original unity. Anyone in a relationship realize that the relationship itself, separate from the two people in it, exists as its own separate entity. Not two people as they literally are in the real, physical world, but how they envision themselves at their best, where shared dreams, goals, and desires exist. Where does such a thing exist? In the cosmere, the Cognitive Realm seems like the right place for this kind of magic to happen =) Does this line up with what you're thinking Yata? =) It's amazing how stories like these can bring people together, no matter where we live around the world!

Yes, perhaps the Cognitive Realm, which seems so important to both AonDor AND to worldhopping/Shadesmar, was disrupted by the Reod more so than anything. Since Hoid uses this realm for travel so much, and because this story takes place early in the timeline of the Cosmere, perhaps he attempted something using the Cognitive Realm (to become an Elantrian? To unsplinter Devotion/Dominion? To experiment with the idea of using regional magics outside of their respected place?) that resulted in the chaos.

I'm curious that they, like the Worldbringers, are interestingly absent from the present time of the stories we read. Only the Worldsingers seem to be around, and even their numbers are small (so small that Hoid was the master to Sigzil). Hoid seems very interested in spreading awareness about the past. It seems like something (or someone else) doesn't want that at all.

Exactly what I was thinking. Elantris comes very early in the chronology of the cosmere that we've seen so far, so my thoughts are that Hoid, perhaps by accident, did something that he perhaps thought was subtle, but had significant consequences (i.e. the Reod) that caused his ability to leave the planet to be complicated. From what we read in the book, it seems Hoid was a known beggar for a long period of time, not just someone who randomly appeared in Kae on occasion.

A very kind 17th sharder (shout out to ParadoxSpren) exposed me to some really interesting information to my theory of Hoid causing the Shaod/Reod that has me thinking about Hoid's meddling in the cosmere. ParadoxSpren directed me to some WoB which give some interesting information about Hoid’s involvement on Sel from the following Words of Brandon: So, a group of storytellers went around Arelon telling everyone about the Elantrians and their magic. As time went on, they collected stories and histories of the people in the land and passed this information along through scholarship. It seems Hoid was involved on Sel long before the events of the book Elantris. Aon Ene represents “wit,” which is a name Hoid uses on Roshar. (as an aside, “Ene” is a palindrome, symmetrical and possibly even Vorin in nature). Following this clue to Roshar, we find that another group similar to the Enefels, known as the Worldsingers, which engaged in very similar behaviors, with whom Hoid has interacted: On Scadrial, the Worldbringers were spiritual leaders of the Terris people, using their copperminds to store information about the past including histories, philosophies, and religions. For some reason, the Lord Ruler felt it necessary to destroy this group – hunting down their successors the Keepers (see The Well of Ascension Chapter 4). An admin on 17th Shard said that the similarities between the names of Worldbringers and Worldsingers was not a coincidence, so we could assume Hoid had involvement on Scadrial prior to the events of the first Mistborn Trilogy too. On Nathlis, we see Hoid as a storyteller with information about the history of the nations of Idris and Hallandren (Warbreaker chapter 32), though whether or not he was the influence behind a guild of storytellers or not is not revealed. My point is this: Why would Hoid invest (pun intented) so much of his time and resources in making sure that humans on these shardworlds were aware of past histories and stories? Perhaps as a way to promote awareness of the shards' existence? I wonder if this was one of his first "intervention" strategies following the shattering. Perhaps this led to some of the chaos that the second letter references: It seems to me that Hoid was originally dedicated to encouraging humans on various planets to be aware of stories of the past, of histories, of the magic that existed. Perhaps this was his first attempt at intervening in the cosmere, but because it didn't accomplish what he wanted it to (or because of the chaos it caused), his plans have changed. Now, it seems like he's more directly involved in things, l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶S̶h̶a̶o̶d̶/̶R̶a̶o̶d,or taking the bead of Lerasium, or involving himself with the Knights Radiant on Roshar. What are your thoughts?

Something interesting hit me on my recent reading of Elantris. Why is Hoid mentioned here at all? Prior to the 10th Anniversary edition, we had no real understanding of why he was meddling on Sel, save that he was apparently known as a street beggar for at least 10 years. What else happened 10 years prior to the events of this book? The Shaod. The Reod. AonDor stops working the way it should. The chasm appeared in Arelon. We know that this earthquake that caused the chasm line was the result of some kind of "unnatural occurance," meaning that something "meddled" with something (we don't know what) in Arelon. Also: The chasm, which occurred only 10 years prior, along with the Shaod/Reod, was not the result of Odium's visit to Sel, which would have taken place hundreds of years prior to the events of the book. Hoid seems to have been hanging out on the streets of Kae for 10 years. Things with Elantris went downhill 10 years ago. An oddly specific coincidence, no? In the postscript of the 10th Anniversary edition of Elantris: My theory summarized: Hoid, in his attempt to become an Elantrian, caused the Shaod/Reod (whether on purpose or by accident, I do not know). Once his mess is resolved, or perhaps once he sees that his plan did not work out the way he thought it would,

Yes! I agree that this man Keseg was likely influenced by the shards to help unite the people of Sel. While this idea has been mentioned elsewhere, I believe that the eventual "unsplintering" of Dominion and Devotion will be the creation of Unity, a new shard much like Harmony (combination of Preservation and Ruin).

This could be completely off base, but I've seen lots of off-base posts in the forums and everyone's awesome about processing through them together! I'm listening through Elantris again and something jumped out at me from the chapter when It seems like the moon is an incredibly important part of the ancient Jesker religion, which was all but destroyed by the Fjorden Empire prior to the book's events. Several characters in the books make a comment along the lines of, "the moon seems like it vanishes from the sky, disappearing to somewhere else, but astronomers have learned that this is just an eclipse." Here's a theory on Trell (formerly an ancient religion like Jesker) - perhaps the moon of Elantris is actually something like a massive Skaze (much larger than average, just like the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher are larger splinters of Honor/Cultivation) that really does disappear and reappear in the sky. Like seons who can turn down their light to almost unseeable, perhaps this giant skaze communicates information when darkened (so no one can see what it's doing). Perhaps this moon skaze (calls itself Trell?) was worshiped in the past because it spoke to the inhabitants of the planet at some point. It commands that the Fjorden destroy the Jesker religion because they might give away the great secret: White Sand Spoiler (maybe?) An odd connection of ideas, but there you go! That's one way I see a possible connection between Dominion and Autonomy. Skaze would be a really convenient way of communicating over long distances - very helpful for an organization like the Set. While this doesn't have air-tight logic, I feel like there are hints of something true in what I'm trying to say! Destroy this theory, but also help me figure out what I'm seeing in this moon business on Sel...there's something we're not seeing yet about it that seems really important!

Isn't Odium already semi-splintered? Question: Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium? Brandon: Yes. Good guess. (AMA Reddit, 2015)