GoddessIMHO

I think it's quite funny, that if you put it the other way around: They shape to their will, it actually works with what some people said here You are both joking but Will Shaping is exactly what Venli has been told to do with the Parshmen. She is convincing them to believe Odium's dogma. So her "extra" talent is persuasion.

For meta discussion purposes. https://www.tor.com/2017/12/18/five-fantastical-contraceptives-and-why-we-need-more/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_term=tordotcom-tordotcomnewsletter&utm_content=na-readblog-blogpost&utm_campaign=tor https://www.tor.com/2017/08/08/beyond-happily-ever-after-divorce-should-be-an-option-in-fantasy-fiction/

After all the discussion here on what would happen baby-wise with Shallan being married we have 2! articles on Tor.com about birth control in fantasy by Sean Connolly and divorce in fantasy bu Anise K. Strong.

It wasn't Renarin who "changed" the future. It was Jasnah and Dalinar. They were the change agents, Renarin the observer. Yes, he let Jasnah know he accepted what he expected her to do but it was her not doing that was the change. Both he and Odium thought what they saw was immutable fact and it wasn't.

Venli should wield NightBlood.

Perhaps there is one thing we can agree on. Whether you agree with the current state of affairs or not; Brandon has created characters and situations that have left readers passionate about the book and what happened. I agree with whoever said that it would have been nice if the Dalinar/Navani romance had generated more heat. I actually think they were supposed to but even the scenes where Dalinar's feeling for her are stated I just wasn't feeling it.

Here's the thing, both sides have listed the quotes and posted their views and few are taking the ferry to the other ship. I loved the Adolin and Shallan chapters at the beginning and my own personal "feeling" when reading made me think Adolin and Shallan will be good for each other. I read the same book you did and what I felt is different than what you felt. There is no denying that Adolin dying would be explosive in world. He is a secondary character but his ties to all three of the mains would have them going clown posy crazy over it. I just REALLY hope that doesn't happen and I just REALLY hope a divorce doesn't happen. I would LOVE to see a married couple working through their differences. I want Shallan to actually forgive Kaladin over Helaran and the two of them become buddies but not lovers. Kaladin Wind runner fighting side by side with Adolin Edge dancer while Shallan Soul Casts the way Jashna did in TC would make for an epic battle scene.

No, nope, nope, nope. Nada, nicht, Though I'm all for the bromance continuing.

WOB from Reddit 1 Jan 2016 about Adolin with my bolding of the text. Did I just verbize a noun?

Unity, truth, defiance and new beginnings are also themes for Venli so I think it's really the theme of the entire book. HAHA, I suppose you could even say that Amaram had a new beginning, it just ended fairly quickly. I liked the triangle shardpost but I would recommend that Shalladin supporters avoid it as it will only upset them.

What I learned is just how incorrectly I was pronouncing the characters names. I like Shallan/Adolin and I love the bromance. I like the idea of Kaladin and Shallan becoming friends. She has to get over all the nasty comments she makes to him however. I suspect that is her feelings about him killing Heloran.

In all the discussion of Adolin and Veil you can't forget that he loves her fashion sense when he sees Shallan wearing Veil's clothes. Just saying. ..

I don't understand the phrase "unmade lack the correlation to the Bondsmiths". It seems to me that Odium's champion and the 9 shadows would be a Bondsmith plus the 9 unmade. I also have questions about the queen and Amaram having eaten the same unmade. She was taken over but didn't have the crystals that appeared on Amaram 's body. And even with the crystals it seemed that Amaram was mentally still himself to the end.

We have nothing to explain what Sja-Anat told Shallan. "We were made, then unmade". What does that mean? And who is her son?

I will likely not ever be somewhere that I can ask Brandon a question. If any of you are it seems like asking what state Pattern is in at the end of OB would be useful information. Is being drowsy the sign that he is fading/dying? The WOB that says she is better but still has a way to go doesn't give us a "level of danger" that knowing Pattern's state would.

And the best part is that Odium now knows for certain that he can lose. He lost Dalinar whom he had personally groomed for years with the Thrill. He also lost with Renarin although he doesn't know it because he can't see him. Renarin has learned that his future visions are not necessarily correct but rather just potential outcomes.

But Hoid also sees the main Shallan as the "real" one not just Adolin. I have no argument that she is really made up of all these traits and certainly isn't integrated at this time but the base is Shallan as Hoid and Adolin see her. The other traits are her also but she is afraid to accept fully. At least she is now steady and working with the 3 together. My guess; she "combines" herself after "something" that will occur in the next book. She has that Ghostblood task looming as well as any potential battles with fused that may occur. In other discussions here numerous posts and the text refer to Adolin "snapping" in the murder of Sadeus. That seems a very interesting bow to what has to happen in Scadrial for magic to enter a soul.

Adolin rolled over in bed and spooned Shallan from behind. "Good morning beautiful" Adolin whispered in her ear. Shallan responded by leaning back into him to feel his firm body at her back. Adolin continued "Kaladin and I have been sparring a lot. It's pretty intense when we practice hand to hand* combat". "Oh?" Shallan responded sounding interested. "Anyway" Adolin stopped, then took a deep breath and continued "You know what would be hot?" * punchy guy stuff Written by Dirty Little Old Ladies Inc.

I don't know what's wrong with me. I keep coming back to read this topic. I'm with you GameOfGroans. We need LMB to edit the romances here. That said. I think WOB makes it clear he feels done with the triangle and is happy with it. From Reddit: The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals. This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)

This why I read the forums. I just miss so much sometimes. This was for the wedding of Shallan and Adolin. I still can't really say what it means. Are these the 5 parts: 1. United, New Beginnings Sing 2. -Defying Truth, Love Truth- 3. Defy! 4. Sing Beginnings! 5. New Unity so we would have: New Unity -Defying Truth, Love Truth- Defy! Sing Beginnings! New Unity

Any time we talk of morality we can get bogged down. There are absolutists and relativists. The death penalty argument in our US culture shows that quite well. Here, we are talking about the in world culture of the Alethi and the constant attempts by one high prince to kill both the other and his heirs. Sadeus also killed many of their loyal soldiers who were the friends and comrades of Adolin. Sadeus is also the man who ruthlessly used the bridgemen as cannon fodder with no thought to them as humans. You question Adolin's morals for doing this but every in world person not of Sadeus's house responded to the news with "good riddance". And yes, his father wants him to be the anti-Blackthorn while Adolin wants to live up to his father's ideals but doesn't know his father was a brutal vengeful killer before his turn around. Plenty of drama.

Ryshadium choose their riders and BOTH Dalinar and Adolin were chosen long before Dalinar became a KR. We really need a bit of a back story on this.

And Hoid will destroy anything if it gets in the way of his mission. Which we don't know. Does't seem like we may actually get a WB 2? The reason why Nightblood is on Roshar? At least a novella???? Anyway, I am now officially in wait mode for the final Legion book.

I'm taking a break from this topic. My tinfoil hat got crushed under all the speculation.

But the Alethe are supposed to be slightly Asian looking and the Shin have the round eyes. I thought that was pretty much Brandon playing with tropes. The Oriental like culture has the round eyes while the European medieval type culture has the epicanthic fold and darker tan skin. I like the Korean actors listed on the TOR site when they had this discussion.