kari-no-sugata

10 minutes ago, Mestiv said:

Am I the only one bothered by this:

Mayalaran

May Aladar

This sounds too similar.

Heh. But the problem is more in how it's written than how it's pronounced. Adolin shortens it to Maya which is rather different to May.

This is sort-of a follow-up to my initial post in this thread after I’ve had time to digest things more. Rather than complaining about what we didn’t get I’ll focus more on what we did get and where it might go. This will be long and might include some rare positivity.

 

Book 4 is supposed to take place about a year on from OB. How much will have changed? I doubt any of our 3 characters (in the thread title) will have said any new Ideals. It’s possible that Shallan could even be pregnant or have even have a baby by then but I’d be quite surprised if Brandon goes there yet with her character unless it somehow ties into her final Truth/Ideal. She is married to a highprince now so that will be a big enough change for her but I doubt the humans will have retaken Kholinar before book 4 has started so she’ll probably only have to manage those in Urithiru. We’ve seen in WoR and in OB that she was somewhat managing Sebarial’s books so that experience will probably help, as will Jasnah’s training. I’m guessing Jasnah will mostly be managing Urithiru (and the highprinces in general) and helping Dalinar with the alliance. I’m guessing Gaz, Vathah, Ishnah etc will be mostly used for information gathering. Will Vathah progress to becoming a Radiant? I wonder how many squires Shallan will get.

 

I was happy to see the Jasnah POVs in Part 2 and her thoughts on Shallan. It’s a shame we didn’t see similar thoughts from others. For example, Dalinar barely thinks about Shallan at all - it’s more like she’s some convenient resource to him and might as well be furniture otherwise. Jasnah had these thoughts on Shallan that I agree with:

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An excellent question. Jasnah searched through the papers on her small table. She’d been collecting reports from her informants in the warcamps—the ones who had survived—about Shallan. She’d truly done well in Jasnah’s absence. Perhaps what the child needed was not more structure, but more challenges.

 

I don’t know if being wife to a highprince will be the right sort of challenge for Shallan but she has been involved in “management” for some time, including helping her father with the house finances, and she seems to be able to handle accounting reasonably well and even enjoy it a bit. We’ve not seen Shallan get too involved with politics yet so I wonder how she’ll handle her peers in the Alethi. She’ll have other challenges as well of course and it’ll be interesting to see what approach Jasnah takes with Shallan’s training, though I think the general approach she took in tWoK won’t be too bad (Jasnah gave Shallan goals but more or less let her decide how to solve them). In Part 1 I wondered if Shallan would use Radiant for political events and the like (since she felt Radiant would want to take part) but in Part 5 Radiant seems to be a warrior only - maybe that will change?

 

I wonder what will happen to Shallan’s brothers and also Helaran’s Shards - Oathbringer itself was recovered so presumably Helaran’s Blade was as well. I don’t know if the Plate survived but maybe Shallan will use it if it did? Wikim seems similar to Renarin in personality and perhaps he will become a squire-in-training under Renarin? I doubt Balat’s injury could be healed so what will he do? Maybe settle down as well and try to re-build the Davar house? Perhaps Jushu will take on Helaran’s Blade since he was interested in duelling?

 

I can’t imagine Adolin changing too much. I don’t know if his killing of Sadeas will come out or not. I’m not sure if it’ll make a big difference either way. Perhaps the main development will be with Maya. He’ll also have to get used to directly dealing with other highprinces as an equal. I wonder how much Shallan will tell Adolin about herself and how they’ll deal with the Ghostbloods (there’s certainly more to come there). In Part 1 I felt that Shallan and Adolin were working more and more like a “pair” so I expect to see more of them working together (like Dalinar and Navani).

 

I guess Kaladin will be similar to Adolin in that his situation won’t have changed too much in a year but he’ll have a lot of thinking to do over his Oaths etc. I can imagine him feeling awkward around Adolin and Shallan after their marriage but if he can get over that (which seems likely enough) then I think they could become close friends, which I’ve argued for before. While Kaladin does benefit from being with Shallan it’s not like they have to be lovers for that and Kaladin would probably prefer Shallan in small doses anyway. Kaladin gets rather hero worshipped by his men so it would probably be good for him to have some close “peers” (friends) in Shallan and Adolin for things he would struggle to share with his men. I think that’s ultimately where Brandon is going with Shallan and Kaladin - he wanted enough to happen between them such that they could become close friends. That does allow for the possibility of some romantic tinged friction but OB nipped that in the bud.

 

I’ve argued this before but I think Kaladin isn’t ready for a real romantic relationship just yet. It’s not so much that he’s not mature (he’s mature before his years in a number of ways) but rather the way he lives - he’s highly focused (quite reasonably) on protecting, training and supporting those under him. He’s not good at relaxing. Part of me imagines him on Earth being something like a hardboiled workaholic detective. Syl is trying to help him but I don’t think he’s ready to take a step back and not be a soldier all the time. I would be totally fine with Kaladin and Syl having some kind of platonic romance but I’m not sure if it would be satisfying.

 

With regards to Kaladin’s Oaths and general progression, reading from the experience with the Skybreakers, it seems likely that most members of most Orders do not in fact reach the Final Ideal. Essentially, each step is harder than the last. It might feel a bit too easy for some of Kaladin’s squires to become Radiants but I wouldn’t be surprised if Kaladin is the only Windrunner to reach the Final Ideal. I had wondered about how Lightweavers would progress if they don’t have enough deep Truths to speak but based on the Skybreakers my guess is that they would simply be stuck - if you don’t have enough deep Truths to admit to you can’t progress far as a Lightweaver (essentially, the more broken you are the further you can potentially progress but doing so could also break you for real).

 

With regards to Kaladin’s feelings towards Shallan, I was always in the camp that his feelings weren’t love. Back in chapter 10 he feels that Syl’s suggestion that he likes Shallan were “uncomfortably close to the truth”, so what in fact were they? I doubt that overall it was like his feelings for Tien (love/affection towards a sibling). I think it was more like “respect” or “awe” or something along those lines - from his point of view, she could cope with things that he couldn’t. While Shallan did explain some of her past to Kaladin, I don’t think he actually understood her any better - perhaps less, if anything. Eg chapter 60:

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How does she smile like that? Kaladin wondered. During their trip through the chasms together, he’d learned her secrets. The wounds she hid. And yet . . . she could simply ignore them somehow. Kaladin had never been able to do that. Even when he wasn’t feeling particularly grim, he felt weighed down by his duties or the people he needed to care for.

 

From chapter 99:

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Something felt warm within him at being near her. Something felt right. It wasn’t like with Laral, his boyhood crush. Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance. It was something different, and he couldn’t define it. He only knew he didn’t want it to stop. It pushed back the darkness.

 

“Down in the chasms,” he said, “when we were trapped together, you talked about your life. About . . . your father.”

“I remember,” she said softly. “In the darkness of the storm.”

 

“How do you do it, Shallan? How do you keep smiling and laughing? How do you keep from fixating on the terrible things that have happened?”

 

“I cover them up. I have this uncanny ability to hide away anything I don’t want to think about. It . . . it’s getting harder, but for most things I can just . . .” She trailed off, staring straight ahead. “There. Gone.”

 

“Wow.”

 

“I know,” she whispered. “I’m crazy.”

 

“No. No, Shallan! I wish I could do the same.”

 

Essentially, he wishes that he could do what he thinks Shallan is doing but he doesn’t really get it and it would probably be too hard for Shallan to explain it properly. He doesn’t take Shallan seriously when she says that she’s crazy (which is why Shallan doesn't consider what she does to be impressive). But even if she could explain it, Shallan is on the Lightweaver path and Kaladin is on the Windrunner path - they aren’t the same and what works for one probably wouldn’t work for the other. Shallan wouldn’t be able to take Kaladin’s approach either (and still be a Lightweaver). Each path has different costs and benefits.

 

Shallan can help brighten Kaladin’s day but she probably can’t solve his inner problems. It’s likely that talking to her could help him though, to help think through his issues but he’ll still have to come up with the actual solution. It might be an interesting twist if Kaladin killing Helaran and how Shallan reacts to that might end up helping Kaladin with his 4th Ideal. Of course, Kaladin will also have increasing amounts of Windrunners under him and he’ll be able to talk about things with them as well.

 

Talking of Helaran, I agree with other posters here that it seems likely that his background will still be relevant in some way. It doesn’t feel finished. I wonder how though - it’s not like Shallan necessarily needs to know more about the Skybreakers in general. The only idea that occurs is that the Skybreakers are mostly on Odium’s side now so could Shallan somehow disrupt that in the course of her investigations? It’ll probably be too late for existing Skybreakers but maybe they can do something about new/future recruits? I did have a few other ideas before reading all of OB but I don’t think they would be relevant now.

 

The “bromance” between Kaladin and Adolin seems quite popular and that did progress in OB. Kaladin finally seems to be over his prejudice with lighteyes and regards Adolin as a real friend. I can imagine Kaladin relying on Adolin (and Shallan) to help him when he does stumble or have dark days. On Adolin’s side, he seemed to be somewhat jealous or envious of Kaladin, but I think he’s over that now, though he probably feels underpowered in general - I wonder if he’ll actively try to revive Maya or if reviving her will be more of an accident?

 

Is the love triangle that never was completely over? Well, probably not completely. I don’t think Veil is completely won over by Adolin yet (though that could change) and Veil seems to enjoy teasing Kaladin. I don’t think Kaladin has seen Veil’s actual face so it’s possible that they could accidentally meet up without Kaladin realising who Veil is and cause a misunderstanding. I think the only chance of real romance between Kaladin and Shallan is if Adolin dies and I very much doubt Shallan would get over that quickly, so even if Brandon does go down such a route I wouldn’t expect anything until the second half of the Stormlight Archive.

 

I know some readers are upset that Kaladin didn’t progress and wasn’t able to say the Words but it’s not like he’ll always be able to rely upon a timely progression to get out of sticky situations. After all, he has two left at maximum. Having characters occasionally fail is both more realistic and helps improve the tension. And helps make the progression more dramatic and rewarding.

 

Perhaps surprisingly, Adolin had the least obvious difficulties of the characters who had numerous POVs. He was sort of an island of calm despite his troubles and helped provide some comic relief (particularly in Part 3). That being said, he still made progress in numerous areas. One thing that was troubling him at the end of WoR is how he fits into everything now. He feels out of his depth in the current situation and variously lacking, particularly once they entered Shadesmar. After his talk with Azure he eventually decided that it was okay for him to refuse to be king. I can imagine him dedicating himself to supporting Shallan on the global level problems but I think he would like to become a Radiant as well. He probably feels unworthy. Is he cracked enough? I think the events at the end of tWoK might well have been enough, as well as the stress that led to him killing Sadeas.

 

The end result of him killing Sadeas was surprisingly drama free. Dalinar has always been hard on Adolin so he got off surprisingly lightly, though maybe if Dalinar hadn’t been through his character progression things would have been rather different. I was not surprised to see Adolin say that he doesn’t regret killing Sadeas and would do it again. I was also not surprised that Shallan wasn’t bothered about it. It’s hard to say if this’ll be plot relevant in the future. It’s possible that Adolin might well go public about it. It might cause some problems for Dalinar but with Ialai leaving Urithiru in disgrace (where to since Alethkar wouldn’t be an option?) the risk of revenge seems low. Probably better to get it out in the open.

 

Adolin seems likely to revive Maya and this looks to be popular with readers. I think it’s likely that Dalinar uniting the three realms helped stimulate Maya’s revival (it helped Taln recover his sanity for a while it seems), though I think it’s really the combination of Adolin’s long term affection for his Blade, plus his meeting her in Shadesmar combined with Dalinar uniting the three realms is what allowed Adolin to feel Maya’s thoughts. I hope to see him try to apprentice to Lift since she’s the only known Edgedancer, and they should be able to figure out that his Blade belonged to an Edgedancer.

 

Adolin’s other story arc focused around Shallan. It would have been nice to see his previous failed relationships addressed more directly. It’s hard to say if he is completely over this issue. My general impression is that his problems stemmed from him being not really Alethi-like due to the influence of his mother - he isn’t ambitious or aggressive and is self-deprecating (though not to the extent Shallan is). The Alethi are also quite stoic in public while Adolin prefers more physical contact (he’s much more likely to hug others than typical Alethi). Adolin takes after his mother enough that it causes stress on Dalinar after Evi’s death. Adolin probably learned to hold back from trying to hug others etc over the years but probably felt a bit stressed over it and probably didn’t like the colder attitude of typical Alethi lighteyed ladies and then his self-deprecating nature kicks in and he feels unworthy for reasons he doesn’t really understand and spoils the relationship. That’s sort-of how it feels though how it became so entrenched I’m not really sure. So basically, Shallan works for him because she’s more like his mother than the Alethi and he can relax and be himself around her - he doesn’t feel under pressure. However, along comes Kaladin and Adolin’s self-deprecating nature kicks in again though in a slightly different way to before. He basically feels inferior to Kaladin. Also, probably for the first time, he voices his feelings rather than semi-consciously sabotaging the relationship - he had already confessed about Sadeas to Shallan so probably felt more able to speak his mind to her and probably liked her too much to fall back to his normal methods. That’s my read at least. However, he was mistaken about Shallan’s attitude towards Kaladin and fortunately she had made her own breakthrough on realising her feelings and how to manage her personas already - if Adolin had offered to step away before that happened then the end result could have been rather different.

 

I have no real idea what we might see in this regard in the next book. On the one hand I can’t imagine Adolin sabotaging the relationship after they marry but on the other hand it doesn’t really feel like he really got closure on his relationship issues - the paragraph above is just my best guess as the text itself isn’t that obvious.

 

Moving on to Shallan’s story arcs, one thing I particularly feared about the whole love-triangle business is that Shallan might well come across as being cheap or indecisive, which we got a bit of but it wasn’t too bad. It’s rather hard being a fan of hers but OB was the first time for me where it was hard being a reader because of the persona business. The problems with her personas rather overshadowed the love-triangle issues, I feel. Speaking her Truth at the end of WoR hit Shallan hard - it was too much for her normal defense mechanisms to cope with. I thought it was likely that Shallan hated herself from WoR so I wasn’t not surprised that she stated this explicitly in OB - she has quite a lot in common with Teft. Jasnah’s return was more or less at the worst time because Shallan was in the midst of trying to figure out who she was and what she wanted, and trying to be Jasnah’s ward again complicated the issue.

 

Shallan had several minor turning points and a few major ones. Adolin telling her to take better care of her men was a minor one, as was revealing herself as Veil to her underlings (it was more of a stepping stone to revealing her personas to Adolin). In chapter 68 Shallan tells Wit that power is the ability to make life better or worse for the people around you, but neglects herself. I again think this is typical of her - hating herself, she doesn’t actively seek happiness for herself (though doesn’t refuse it either). Jasnah fears losing her sanity/mind more than anything but Shallan would probably accept being crazy if it means that she can achieve the things she wants to (I was pretty sure of this in WoR already). Wit tries to encourage Shallan to enjoy life more but it doesn’t get through at the time.

 

Which leads us to her next turning point when Veil fails and Wit has to pull out the stops in chapter 82 (The girl who stood up), which seems universally popular and for good reason (it was beautiful). Veil’s failure showed that her personas were fallible and were not a reliable way to escape pain. There probably wasn’t anyone other than Wit who could have helped Shallan. You could say that Shallan’s core problem is that she hates herself. I thought that one of the biggest risks of her using her personas was that others might like the personas more than her. This is also exactly why she absolutely needed to hear from Adolin that he wanted her (Shallan) as she is and not one of her personas, and that he also doesn’t mind if she’s a bit broken. Shallan needed to be able to like herself for her to want to be herself. For that she needed to be able to forgive herself at least somewhat. I’m not sure if she has really forgiven herself yet but she seems to be willing to try liking herself at the end - that’s the main payoff for “The girl who stood up”.

 

The next turning point is in chapter 108 when Shallan openly admits to her problems with her personas (though without going into much detail) and Adolin admits to having killed Sadeas. Shallan is quite close to losing herself despite Wit’s advice but Adolin telling her “It’s obvious. I prefer the real you” etc gives her some real peace. To me, this chapter was the most important for Adolin and Shallan as a pair, rather than what happens later. However, Shallan isn’t stable yet.

 

Perhaps the hardest turning point to understand is in chapter 121:

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“Shallan . . .” Adolin said, taking her hand.

 

“What?” Veil asked.

 

“Something’s wrong.”

 

“Of course it is,” Radiant said. “This fighting has left us all thoroughly worn out.”

 

Adolin searched her eyes. She bled from one, to the other, and back. A moment of Veil. A moment of Radiant. Shallan peeking through—

 

Adolin’s hand tightened around her own.

 

Shallan’s breath caught. There, she thought. That’s the one. That’s the one I am.

He knows.

Adolin relaxed, and for the first time she noticed how ragged his clothing was. She raised her safehand to her lips. “Adolin, are you all right?”

 

So basically, Shallan is shifting between her personas on the inside almost constantly and somehow Adolin can tell (I presume she’s not using Lightweaving on herself at this point). Also, while she is shifting between personas, when she stumbles upon Shallan, Adolin somehow notices this fact. This is rather curious and hard to explain but Shallan realising this does stabilise Shallan. Is this a tiny bit of Radiant power leaking through in Adolin perhaps? Is Adolin somehow feeling the changes in Connection as she shifts personas or something? Anyway, at the end of this section, Veil takes over again in reaction to seeing Kaladin but this time Shallan takes control:

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She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain. They were not her. She was occasionally them. But they were not her.

 

After this, we don’t see Shallan accidentally leak between personas again. She is in control. A little later Adolin offers to step back but Shallan doesn’t let him and at the end Adolin repeats that he only wants her (Shallan) and not her personas or any potential persona. Note that Shallan actually pulls some passionspren here for the first time (it’s also rare for her to pull “positive” spren). After this, Shallan is even more clingy than before. She seems worried that without him she might start becoming unstable again.

 

With regards to Shallan’s personas being her or not, there’s been some discussion but it feels to me that they could be better thought of as distinct - they share some things but not others. For example, in chapter 67 Veil thinks “Storming lighteyes” at one point which is not something that Shallan or Radiant would ever feel. I think this is ultimately why Shallan will be able to use her personas as a tool. She’ll be able to consider problems from multiple angles much more deeply than otherwise (she was already doing this to some degree in WoR).

 

It’s a shame we don’t see more of Shallan’s thoughts in the book about marrying Adolin. There is a brief reference in chapter 53 from Jasnah’s POV where Navani tells Shallan (somewhat ironically) “But in these uncertain times, surely you wish for stability”. The general impression is that there has been ongoing discussions between Shallan and Navani about marriage but Shallan has been resisting a bit. Well anyway, stability is certainly what Shallan needs, in more ways than one. It would be easy to claim that they’re marrying too early but they both need each other - the world is not at peace, Adolin needs help as he’s about to become highprince finally and Shallan certainly needs stability on multiple levels.

 

Is it too soon? Well, I could flip it around and ask what would be the benefit of delaying it? I had thought after the end of Part 1 that Adolin and Shallan only really needed to make one extra step - to be willing to reveal their darker sides to each other. They were very comfortable in each other’s company, Adolin was willing to rely on Shallan for support, Shallan was getting to understand Adolin quite well (neither Dalinar, Navani or Jasnah showed any sign of noticing the hints that Adolin was feeling stressed from having killed Sadeas) and so on. I felt that they really did need to take that extra step but it was quite hard for both of them, unsurprisingly. It’s not easy to reveal such things to someone you care deeply about. But they did it. The wedding probably feels more hasty than it is due to the limited foreshadowing and how quickly the days pass in the final chapters. They’re not the only characters who are having to grow up quickly either - everyone is, really. So, sure, there will likely be some stumbles along the way but I think it’ll work out without too much trouble unless the plot intervenes in a heavy way.

 

The other question is, how stable is Shallan now? I think many readers would feel that the mere continued existence of her personas is proof that she is unstable but I always felt that she would keep Veil and Radiant longer term. I think it’s likely that this is a Lightweaver trait - perhaps they are supposed to be “differently normal” (their Ideals are very distinct after all). I also thought it would be very unlikely for Brandon to discard such a fun plot device. Maybe you could say that she has reached a different kind of stability, one that humans cannot normally reach. For Shallan at least and perhaps most Lightweavers, her ability to accurately draw and recreate others is based on Connection. So she has a strong Connection to 1000s of people, which is not normal. Combined with her background, this probably makes it easier than normal to lose herself. The worst state we saw Shallan in was immediately after the battle when she had actively used far more Connection than ever before and she was incredibly tired (also note that each time one of her creations was cut she felt pain, so the cumulative effect of all that must have been horrendous). I think she would have recovered somewhat naturally afterwards without Adolin but it’s also possible that if/when she does similar things in future that she might suffer from a similar backlash again, though probably not nearly so bad as she has become stronger.

 

I have argued before that Shallan tends to build up Connection with others over time. She is flexible and forgiving but she doesn’t always get on with others quickly - Jasnah took time, Kaladin took time, etc. However, she got along with Adolin very quickly and increasingly got closer and closer and built up more and more Connection. Throughout OB we see Shallan being very close with Adolin and very affectionate, often cuddling with him. We even see Shallan start to feel jealousy in OB, something she didn’t show in WoR, when she sees and interacts with Adolin’s previous girlfriends. At first in WoR, Adolin hesitates to respond to Shallan’s physical affection but this doesn’t last long and he has gotten comfortable with initiating intimacy as well. We never see Shallan be like this with Kaladin and she never really approaches him. It’s not stated explicitly but it seems that Shallan is deliberately being mean at times to Kaladin due to him killing Helaran and also somewhat because Veil enjoys teasing Kaladin (due to his strong reactions). While Kaladin and Shallan have shared some close moments I never saw those particular moments as being romantic by themselves - it could have become that way in future but that never happened as Kaladin never approached Shallan that way and Shallan never approached Kaladin that way. Instead, perhaps it’s Shallan’s strong Connection to Adolin that ultimately saved her from her personas - with him she feels comforted and at peace and less likely to be distracted by other things (in their own little world, basically). Him being able to “recognise” her as Shallan and her realising that helped connect them strongly and helped Shallan to push aside the influence of her personas. Adolin seeing Shallan’s personas as distinct (rather than lumped together) is what allows him to see Shallan herself as an individual. In other words, he can filter out what is Shallan and what is not. So he connects to Shallan herself, first and foremost and not to her personas. If Adolin had treated all of Shallan’s personas equally I don’t think this would have happened and Shallan wouldn’t have stabilised.

 

Well, the above is certainly speculative. This is my general impression. It’s a shame it feels so vague on the page. But this is ever the problem with interpreting Shallan - you have to read deeper.

I had the same thought on all of the above but hadn’t had time to type it up yet.

I wonder what Jasnah will do with the two Heralds afterwards.

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I think its also important to remember how quickly this is all happening. Dalinar only started getting the visions 6 months ago. Shallan arrived at the Shattered Plains approximately 2 months ago by my reckoning (she arrives just after Szeth attacks Dalinar). The whole of Oathbringer likely lasts only about 1 month. As a point, a month in Roshar is 50 days (each day being shorter than 1 Earth day)and there are 10 months in the year = 500 days per year and 1000 per full cycle (from lightday in the weeping to the next 2 years later). Mistakes will occur, both tactically and emotionally as they are running at full speed all the time.

Regarding timelines: https://brandonsanderson.com/oathbringers-timeline/

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The timeline for Oathbringer starts on day 4 of the new year, and ends on day 100. (Which, for those of you who keep track of such things, makes the date 1174.2.10.5). My day count could change by a day or two here and there, but I’m pretty happy with how I got the different groups of people to all end up in the same place at the same time.

So OB is basically 2 Roshar months. I presume that includes the epilogue with Wit, which is "weeks after the fall of Kholinar". The last scene with Dalinar is just after the wedding. It would be interesting to know just how much time passed since the end battle. In Taravangian's POV it's 8 days. Shallan's POV saying the wedding is a week away could easily be several days or even weeks after that. Anyway, let's say her wedding is at least 15 days (3 Roshar weeks) after the end battle.

8 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

But he never ever puts it that way in his POVs. His internal monologue is surely controlling.

Not to mention that neither Cultivation nor her daughter would have given him the knowledge/power to rampage round the world just to save his own people. 

Cultivation’s plans for Big T can’t be to help odium can they? 

It was always a doublecross by cultivation from the beginning. She sent big T in as an agent because that’s what would fulfill both the boon he asked for and her own goals.

I'm not disagreeing that it's possible that Cultivation's plan with Taravangian could involve a double cross. It seems quite plausible to me.

What I am saying is that Taravangian's current approach is selling out humanity:

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The words started to fade all around them. Leaving him alone. Alone and stupid. He blinked tears from the corners of his eyes. “Kharbranth,” he said. “Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you.”

The world was lost, humankind doomed.

 

From the end of chapter 121:

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They caused a stir in the refugees, and someone detached themselves from the group of scribes up ahead. A woman in deep violet. The Blackthorn’s niece. She looked at Ash, then at Taln, then at a piece of paper she’d been carrying. It contained shockingly accurate sketches of the two of them. Not as they were presented in iconography, but real sketches. Who . . . why?

That’s his drawing style, a part of Ash noted. Why has Midius been giving away pictures of us?

So, Jasnah has probably just bagged two Heralds but that's not the subject of this post. Who is Midius?

Midius is probably a reference to Hoid:

In chapter 53 we also have this:

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I will provide you with sketches of the Heralds, Jasnah said. I have drawings of their true faces, provided by an unexpected source. Ethid, you are right about them. They aren’t going to be a resource; they’re broken. Have you read the accounts of my uncle’s visions?

So, why would Hoid provide sketches of them? It seems unusually cooperative of him.

 

There is another possibility though:

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He sighed as Navani stood and walked to him, taking his arm. “I’ll need to try to do sketches from memory of each of those Honorblades—or better, send Shallan to do it. Perhaps we can use the drawings to locate the others.”

We also see the Heralds in the visions as well, eg chapter 42. So it's possible that the sketches that Jasnah has are actually from Shallan and the "unexpected source" is the visions rather than Hoid? But then why do her drawings resemble Hoid's art style? Well, Shallan did develop her art style heavily from Dandos the Oilsworn and basically nobody else. So is it possible that Dandos was actually Hoid? I should note that Dandos has been name-dropped in all 3 SA books so far which is rather unusual. Incidentally, Jasnah has sketches of both Heralds and Taln wouldn't have been seen in the visions so does this mean Shallan told Jasnah about her meeting with Taln in WoR and sketched him from that?

I can't say I'm confident about this Shallan theory but it is just about plausible. It would certainly be simpler for Hoid to give sketches to Jasnah though. But then, wouldn't it have been better for him to do that sooner rather than later? Why now?

Either way, it's an interesting though minor little thing...

1 minute ago, Storyspren said:

Yeah that’s what II thought. His story is a mirror to Dalinars.

II worry though that we are too caught up in “the end justifies the means” being bad. We’re not talking about two innocent men and one guilty here. We’re talking about the end of the world. Saving the most people we can possibly save in an Armageddon situation. Extinction, you work against it right?

What Taravangian is currently aiming for is not to save the world. At best he might save a teeny tiny bit and is actually making things worse (aiding the enemy). Selling out humanity just to save some people close to you is not going to win you any friends or get you any awards. And that's even assuming it works out in practice.

That being said, I like the idea of a double-cross with Odium. After all, if what Taravangian was asking Odium for was good enough for Super-T then surely the best thing to do would be to escape through Shadesmar long ago? He could have probably arranged for a few thousand people to escape at least. So maybe Super-T has bigger plans?

I don't think the Everstorm would necessarily help and I think it would be dangerous to try. The Everstorm is specifically for the parsh / singers after all.

While I agree that Dalinar's Bondsmith abilities could likely help, I suspect it would be more to speed up the process (more of a catalyst than a instant fix). I don't think it would be reasonable to force Connection between any random eyeless and their wielder and expect to get good results. I think it would be much better to enhance what's already there.

Hmm, here's an idea. When Dalinar did his whole "I am Unity" thing at the end, I think that helped enhance the bond between Adolin and Maya. I think it's pretty clear that there was already something between them (after all, Maya helped Adolin at one point in Shadesmar). Here's some subtle evidence - one of the first things shown after the "I am Unity" bit is Taln recovering (at least until the battle was over, his recovery fading with the Perpendicularity). So basically, it's was really good that Adolin was able to make some progress during this time because he won't forget Maya's name etc. So that Connection can now be further built upon. It'll be interesting to see whether he can succeed in summoning her in under 10 heartbeats later on or not.

The fun of doing scientific research in a world with emotion spren:

Quote

This city was brimming with them. It was stuffed with them, so tightly they couldn’t help but ooze out.

The only thing for Shallan to do, then, was punch herself in the face.

I thought the joke went a bit too far with the shamespren though but I liked this "moving swiftly on" bit at the end:

Quote

“I’mfinethatwasanexperiment,” she said, ducking into the showroom and throwing herself into a seat placed there for customers. Storms, that was humiliating.

She really has that "you don't have to be crazy to work here but it helps" vibe going here...

 

A bit of gallows humour:

Quote

A day after being murdered in a brutal fashion, Shallan found that she was feeling much better.

 

10 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I'm really surprised, that this topic was directed into whether this would actually happen and if it would make sense. Come on, it's a shipping thread. Give up logic and have fun. 

Try persuading Jasnah to give up logic and have fun

Chapter 102 (Celebrant):

Quote

Shallan watched from the window. Her breath caught as the Fused lifted a few inches of the ground, then glided toward the registrar’s building.

Chapter 103 (Hypocrite):

Quote

“Deal,” Nohadon said to the merchant. “And well argued, you swindler. Make sure to buy Lani something nice with the extra spheres you got of me.”

Both of these should be "off" rather than "of" I would say.

 

Both from UK iBooks edition.

1 hour ago, RShara said:

He's emotionally driven, conflicted, stubborn and has lots of issues.  She's rational, logical, strong, confident, and can't stand unresolved issues or irrational emotions.

You beat me to it

The gap between them is just too far and I saw their arguments in Part 2 coming as soon as Part 1 ended.

On 15/11/2017 at 2:01 PM, lookingglass said:

Was that Elohkar's spren that he found and bonded?

That was my impression. Nothing else springs to mind that makes sense. To bond a higher spren the spren has to enter the Physical Realm first. So Elhokhar just about to say the words would only have meaning if the spren in question had already entered the Physical Realm. When the bond failed due to Elhokar's death then the Cryptic would have been stuck in the Physical Realm, most likely.

Hoid and Shallan both liked Elhokar and I think it makes sense that he could have bonded a Cryptic. Is that more "birds of a feather flock together" or was there anything supernatural? I'd guess the former but who knows.

26 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Agreed. This feels like a clear case of Occam's Razor to me.

Also agree. I think we'd need something substantial to conclude that Maya was anything special in her past.

However, if Adolin does revive her then that very fact would make her special in the sense that it would change how people view the eyeless and also humans.

 

26 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I don't believe Adolin would say his oaths off-screen, he's too important a character for that, and additionally the reviving of Maya (which I would assume is a part of it) would be an extremely important event, worthy of being a part of a climax of one of the parts of a book if not the full book's climax. I think that Maya got kind of a little bit alive because Adolin truly started seeing her as a being in Shadesmar, and also because they were together for a while in Shadesmar.

Indeed. If Adolin is able to revive Maya fully then skipping out on it happening would be extremely dumb. Why have all the build-up then squander the payoff? I know we don't see every Oath made, but there's generally a good reason for it - eg it happened before the story started or would give away future plot developments. Neither of those would apply here.

Going back to Maya herself, we saw from Dalinar's case with Oathbringer that the eyeless can feel something. They are affected by their wielder. Given this, Adolin's attitude towards his Shardblade would be reasonably expected to have some kind of effect. I also agree that Adolin meeting Maya would be significant - since we know that perception matters. Now that Adolin knows her name, his bond to her should increase further. Now that Maya is actively responding to Adolin, there's scope for that to be slowly built up. That being said, I think there'll be a threshold where the only way to get further progress would be Adolin to say the Words and that might be harder than for normal Radiants and I believe there was also a WoB that said he'd have to say the exact same words as Maya's original wielder.

It'll be interesting to see what Adolin does in the next book (and before then). I can imagine him wanting to do little things to help Maya or to meet her. I'm sure he'll be asking Shallan for help since she can enter Shadesmar.

1 hour ago, Peacegiver said:

Lift and everyone. I think some Shallan/Lift interaction could be fun.

I was slightly disappointed in that lack of Shallan and Lift interactions. Ditto Syl and Pattern.

I don't know if Adolin determined that his Blade was from an Edgedancer. But it's quite possible that will happen. In which case, he might approach Lift to be her squire. That would be hilarious.

2 hours ago, Ryshadium said:

I agree.  Their relationship has always been a bit adolescent and immature to me, and Kaladin is way too mature (even though he makes stupid decisions sometimes) for Shallan.  Adolin and Shallan make much more sense, and throughout the book, I absolutely rooted for them and against her and Kaladin.  Adolin seeing the "real" Shallan and accepting her for all her flaws and her insecurities worked well for me. I still don't like her much, but I like her more with him.

One of Adolin's best lines in the book is when he tells Shallan that he wants her as she is, flaws and all. Shallan really needed to hear that (it was one of the things I had been hoping to see).

More than I had expected, Adolin is really an island of stability in this book. He's certainly under stress but deals with it well. I think this is something that works well in combination with Shallan who is rather unstable.

They'll be able to have all sorts of fun in future.

 

2 hours ago, Ryshadium said:

Another refreshing part about the love triangle story was how much Adolin and Kaladin respected each other and didn't turn it into some sort of testosterone fueled disagreement.  Their friendship is refreshing, and it could have turned out extremely clichéd. 

I was glad about this too. I think all 3 of them will be able to be friends in future though who knows how the series will develop.

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But this is exactly what I find so irritating. This reasoning is so god damnation thin. And when she says, that Adolin even interacted with Veil and that they liked each other? This may be stable (for the time being), but far from healthy. Adolin enables her. He simply chooses to ignore the problem. Which is damnation ironic, considering that is exactly what she criticized about Kal, what she just assumed he meant.

I always suspected that Shallan would keep some personas long term. It would be too good/fun a tool for Brandon to ditch it. But Shallan needed to go through some pain to earn it, I guess.

I don't find the reasoning itself to be thin but the emotional payoff was lacking for me. Or putting it another way, it works logically for me but not emotionally. It really didn't help that Shallan kept backsliding on this issue. Putting it another way, even though the plot seems to indicate that the issue is resolved (since Shallan and Adolin marry) it doesn't feel resolved enough - I think it would have been better to move some of the Shallan/Adolin scenes from the end of Part 5 to the end of Part 4 so that we can see that it's resolved.

On a general thought on Shallan: I have argued before that she builds Connection to people and this explicitly comes up in OB. Maybe the downside of this is that she feels pulled in many directions due to this Connection and this is part of the reason why she is unstable? We see in Ash's POV that she hates it when people invoke her name (which can be considered a form of Connection) so this might be a Lightweaver thing in general and the Heraldic picture of her also seems to indicate that. So perhaps for Shallan, having someone she has very strong Connection to (ie Adolin) helps stabilise her because it dampens her Connection to others?

Part 4 was interesting in all sorts of ways and as soon as we saw Maya there I was thinking "ooh! does this mean what I think it means!?"

This was a great scene:

Quote

“This is what you were designed for, isn’t it?” Adolin said softly as his Blade dropped into his hand. “It was for fighting things like that. Shardblades are impractically long for duels, and Plate is overkill even on the battlefield. But against a monster of stone . . .”

He felt something. A stirring on the wind.

“You want to fight it, don’t you?” Adolin asked. “It reminds you of when you were alive.”

Something tickled his mind, very faint, like a sigh. A single word: Mayalaran. A . . . name?

“Right, Maya,” Adolin said. “Let’s bring that thing down.”

I think book 4 is planned to be set 1 year after the end of book 3, so this should give more time for the bond develop enough for Adolin to say the Words.

On a side note, I was wondering if we might see Adolin become one of Shallan's squires. I wonder if that would help or not with reviving Maya? Do squires generally have to be of the same Order?

Well, read Parts 2-5 in 25 hours straight. Kinda tired

I'll write more after some sleep but my feeling right now is that some plot lines didn't quite have the payoff I was hoping for. There were plenty of scenes that were great to read and the plot certainly went in some interesting directions. Dalinar's plot worked well I thought except it felt a bit repetitive (emotionally) at times. The other characters felt a bit crowded out at times. I'm glad we got plenty of reveals and a number of plot threads were closed off.

When I finished reading WoR I thought that the next book would be rather dark due to the effects of the Everstorm but that didn't really happen until we got to Part 3 and it was quite a change.

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Argent I don't disagree. I think it's about acceptance at this point. Shallan can embrace who she's become and it will be true, but she doesn't.

For her, it's a matter of perception. As long as she rejects herself, her memories, the speculation of her losing herself to her personas has already happened. 

I would still think that she's the Shallan we know if not for the line in her mind before descending to confront Re-Shephir where she says something along the lines of "but that's the real you isn't it? Why do you need to paint that face on?" 

Regarding the last part, I thought the opposite. The fact that Shallan resists being treated like a persona is a sign that she isn't, I thought.

Putting it another way, I think it's more likely that Shallan thinks she's a persona when she isn't than the other way around.

The Shallan we see develops and changes like a real person. So I don't think she's a persona.

18 minutes ago, Govir said:

I think you can, but it doesn't imply abilities. All of the orders except for Lightweavers have specific oaths that have to be spoken (and it is so far assumed they are spoken in the same order, e.g. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." is always the second Windrunner ideal). Therefore, the Levels refer to how many oaths someone has spoken. This includes the First Ideal which is shared by all orders.

In this regard, I think we only know the "level" of four characters (as of the end of Edgedancer).

• Kaladin - Level 3
• Shallan - Level 4 (only because we know from a WoB that as of the end of WoR she is one "level" higher than Kaladin)
• Dalinar - Level 2
• Lift - Level 3

With regards to Shallan, the in-world evidence was that she could already summon a Shardblade before her Oath at the end. Of course, this doesn't prove that she was Level 3 beforehand, but it is suggestive. So she was at least "Shardblade level + 1" at the end of WoR but her exact level is unknown based on the book contents.

 

18 minutes ago, Govir said:

Radiants of Unknown level, which I personally assume are all at least level 2.

• Jasnah
• Renarin
• Malata

We don't officially know their level but they can all summon a Shardblade.

 

18 minutes ago, Govir said:

Lastly, my thought on Lightweavers is that they follow the same leveling scheme, it's just that their oaths are personal and therefore different for each person. i.e. Shallan won't continuously say Truths in order to advance more and more.

I believe it's the same for all orders - level 5 (or the equivalent) is the maximum.

With regards to Lightweavers, I have wondered what happens if (say) a person has less than 4 Truths that are meaningful. Let's say they have 3. Does that mean those 3 would be the equivalent of 4 in practice (in terms of bond strength)? Or does it mean that it only counts for 3 levels and they could never reach maximum level? Or would some minor truth count for a level then?

My best guess for Shallan is as follows: she was probably Level 4 (or Shardblade level + 1) before her mother's death but after that she regressed to Level 3 (or Shardblade level + 0). We currently have no hints (that I can see) of what Oaths/Truths Shallan swore prior to her mother's death. I don't think the truths she spoke during tWoK directly affected her bond level because those were not spoken to Pattern - effectively it was a temporary bond to a different Cryptic, probably done in order to help reboot her bond with Pattern.

Just now, Fulminato said:

sleeping is overrated

Indeed. I'm pretty sure I managed to read WoR without sleeping. And after getting some sleep I started a re-read...

I booked a few days off next week as well.

2 hours ago, vividox said:

Agree with the majority of your post, but I'd just like to point out that a murder turning out to not be successful is no reason whatsoever for Shallan to stop hating the Ghostbloods for the attempt.

Hmm. On reflection... yes, that's true.

Brandon has said that Part 1 has a narrow focus, Part 2 has a wide focus, Part 3 has a narrow focus and Part 4 has a wide focus. I'm not sure what the final book will have but it seems that Part 2 does some interesting things with viewpoint and probably has a lot of different viewpoints. Part 2 will also be shorter than Part 1 (possibly around half the size). Based on that, regardless of who gets what, I think the total number of Shallan and Kaladin chapters combined will be quite small (maybe 3-4).

Part 2 will also be more character focused, apparently. I guess the main topics are going to be relations internal to Urithiru, relations between Urithiru (mostly Dalinar) and other countries, and also what to do about the parshmen.

Personally, I would be happy to see more of Shallan outside of her own viewpoint. Actually, all the characters really.