kari-no-sugata

Is a Perpendicularity needed on Braize though? Odium's forces there are spren. They shouldn't need to transfer to the Cognitive Realm in the first place. Also, whether or not there's usable Perpendicularities on Braize or Roshar, would that make any difference to the actual leap between worlds itself?

Maxal, have an upvote Too often (I feel), the more normal possibilities are ignored, and instead the solution to every problem/mystery is magic, world-hoppers, secret societies etc.

Going back to this quote from Darkness: I don't think we should trust what Nale/Ishar say too much but some of what they do say is probably true. Let's start with the assumption that the "root cause" of a Desolation is Odium spren jumping from Braize to Roshar. I don't know if it's the root cause but it seems logical to me that it's at least part of it. Note, the problem is to "jump" - the spren have to go from one planet to another in one go. The Odium spren (desolation spren!?) are not hovering just next to Roshar waiting for a hole to open - they're all the way over on Braize. I don't think by itself that just having a highly Invested person around is going to cause such a jump to happen. If that's all that was required then the remaining Heralds would cause such events purely by themselves - the Heralds should be WAY more Invested than any Radiant should be able to hope to achieve. Maybe enough Radiants acting together could cause such a thing though. Maybe a highly Invested person (or group) having a particular emotion (despair?) can do something? Ie it requires a combination of circumstances? Anyway, going back to the "jump": while the Cognitive Realm doesn't exactly match the Physical Realm, distance still matters. ie the proximity of the planets of Roshar and Braize should matter. Meaning, the easiest time to start a Desolation is when they are closest. When are they closest? How about during the Weeping? Has Brandon confirmed that the 500 day year is actually Roshar's proper orbital year? Since Roshar doesn't have normal seasons, the year is measured based on the Weeping. If the relative orbits are such that they regularly come close every 500 days and that event directly or indirectly causes the Weeping then that's probably where the "500 day year" comes from, even though it's technically incorrect by how we'd measure the year on Earth. It's probably not a coincidence that the Listeners triggered the Everstorm in the middle of the Weeping. It's quite possible that was the only time they could do it. (Any WoBs on this?) So why would the proximity trigger the Weeping? I can't think of a direct cause but I can think of one indirect one - it's probably to reduce the amount of Investiture floating around on Roshar at the time of most risk. ie it's more of a safety measure by Honor/Stormfather. I'm not going to speculate on exactly how Heralds can trigger Desolations or why Ishar thinks Radiants might possibly somehow be able to do the same. But if the "jump" assumption is correct then the distance between Roshar and Braize probably matters.

Regarding the marriages being more likely to be arranged (or semi-arranged), this might sound strange but I don't think that would make the problem worse. If anything, it removes a potentially dangerous random element. For arranged marriages, that will mostly be with long term allies which would reduce the likelihood of betrayal - though certainly not eliminate it.

My personal feeling is that the first Radiant Oath is really weak. I suspect it's more of a convention that has an effect because people/spren have used it for so long that they think it does. I have no proof of this and it's just based on a single case - how much difference it made to Kaladin in tWoK. If this is correct and Renarin's visions are directly due to the strength of his spren bond then I would think it's likely that he's gotten at least as far as the first Truthwatcher specific Oath (or equivalent). Otherwise, I think the effect would be too weak for him to have visions so consistently. Side thought: let's say for the sake of example that these visions are directly related to Renarin progressing as a Radiant/Truthwatcher. Would he have known in advance that he'd get involuntary visions as a side effect of progressing? Probably not, going by what we see with other spren. This brings me to another thought: Renarin is clearly not happy about having these visions. So why doesn't this lead to the Nahel bond dissolving? Even if he doesn't realise that this is possible it should still be possible to reject it (Kaladin does just this). There's no indication I can see that his Nahel bond is weakening during WoR - if anything it's the opposite. I can only think of three possibilities: he's not really rejecting it (or not strongly enough), that rejecting the visions is distinct enough from the rejecting the Nahel bond overall or the nature of the spren that it doesn't matter, or that it has nothing to do with the Nahel bond.

I agree that this is a potential problem but I think it's manageable. After all, it's easy enough to get someone else to verify important communications - which means that it's very easy to determine if someone has falsified communications. This also means that the risk of capture for anyone trying this is quite high, which acts as a deterrent. A big problem would be spies making copies of important communications but that would be a risk even without Vorin culture. So, while I can imagine such things happening from time to time the fact that most of the important scribes are typically family members suggests that "professional" scribes aren't trusted anyway - it's possible that in the past that professional scribes were used more but after various cases of them being bribed came out it became more and more common to use family members.

I don't think there's any evidence that the Stormfather created Syl or the Honorspren in general though. He might well be in charge of them but there's a huge difference between that and being directly responsible for their creation. Honor was able to compel the Stormfather to do certain things (eg send visions) from beyond the grave. It's hard to imagine Odium not being able to do something similar to the Unmade. I'm not saying it's impossible but it does stretch credibility, in my mind. If all Truthwatchers ever bonded the same spren and that spren is (or is related to) one of the Unmade then that implies (though certainly doesn't prove) then that spren turned traitor on Odium thousands of years ago and Odium wasn't able to do anything about it and Honor (or Cultivation) never stopped it in all that time. Yeah, not terribly likely. Also, hasn't Brandon confirmed that all the spren that bond Radiants are a mix of Honor and Cultivation?

It's curious to imagine the possibility of one of the Unmade turning traitor. You'd think Odium would simply kill/destroy them if it ever happened. Even if Odium is somehow constrained, surely he'd still be able to control his own Investiture? Well, who knows really. Turning the question around, if we consider the visions that Renarin is getting, are they in any way beneficial to Odium or his side? It would be quite strange for him to tip his hand in this way. I find it somewhat implausible that this was somehow required as setup for the Everstorm or something (ie it's a self-fulfilling prophesy). So while the visions were definitely painful for Renarin himself, if we consider "who benefits" then I think you would need quite convoluted arguments to suggest that Odium benefited and it seems much simpler to argue the opposite. Of course, this is the Cosmere and there's other Shards around. It's not impossible that some Shard other than Honor, Cultivation or Odium is involved but that starts becoming even more convoluted to discuss.

Though we obviously won't be seeing more of Ym, I remember reading a WoB the other day that this isn't the last we've seen of Stump. How much more we'll see I don't know but it might be enough to confirm that Renarin is not unique... or alternatively (by lack of evidence to the contrary) suggest that he is. We'll probably know by the end of SA3. btw, it seems to me that neither Ym or Stump progressed much as Radiants (yet in Stump's case). They might not even have said the first Oath - I think Kaladin was able to weakly use Surges before he said the first Oath.

Maybe someone can remember the quote I'm thinking of but I'm pretty sure there's a WoB out there that states that in the general case it's hard to "control" people, even for a Shard. ie there generally needs to be some weakness or special circumstances. I think Dalinar's visions are the only known case (so far) where it's not of malign origin. That Dalinar's case is so similar does give some cause for hope though. It seems that as Dalinar became closer to becoming a Bondsmith his visions became stronger - I agree that there's no indication that it relates to a specific Surge but it seems likely to be related to bonding the Stormfather. Renarin's problem coincides quite strongly with the first indications that Renarin was becoming a Radiant, so while it's probably not a specific Surge either it's possible that it only started once Renarin progressed far enough as a Radiant. If it's directly related to him progressing as a Radiant it's less likely to be of malign origin, but certainly not zero. If what Renarin is experiencing is directly due to the specific two Surges that he has (even if he's not actively using them), ie it's the Truthwatcher resonance/quirk, then the equivalent Herald should get the same. The visions could be both malign in origin and also related to Renarin's progression as a Radiant and also not something that was setup specifically by Odium. For example, maybe it makes him more susceptible to some of the Unmade as a side effect? However, it's probably not related to the one that causes the death rattles since it has moved away (apparently). I don't think there's been any indication that the effects of the Unmade are tied to highstorms though. Anyway... I'm not surprised that Brandon is not giving any hints away about this as it would likely be a spoiler for Renarin in SA3 - the in-world characters will also need to try to figure out if it's malign or not and whether it's something they should try to use or not.

Maybe Renarin is getting visions from Cultivation...? I don't think we can say for sure whether Renarin is a unique case or not yet (unless I'm missing something) though if all Truthwatchers get something similar during highstorms then it could explain why they're (apparently) particularly secretive. I can think of lots of different possibilities at least, due to the lack of solid information. Will Renarin continue to get visions during highstorms? Will being in Urithiru make any difference? Will he be similarly affected by the Everstorm passing over?

I seem to remember it being said that Dalinar being able to see the Recreance in the visions is proof that Honor was still alive at the time. Anyway, regarding the Ishar quote, I prefer simpler answers - to apply Occam's Razor and use as few assumptions as possible. In this case, the "implications" that Ishar is referring to are likely to be about the fact that people suddenly gaining power can cause problems. Like I said, with great power comes great responsibility. To quote from the Nohadon scene in tWoK:

A few choice quotes: Reading between the lines, what "broke" Lift was her mother's death. It seems she was close to her mother and viewed her as someone very kind and who helped others but was let down when she herself needed help. In a way, she is continuing her mother's will (of helping others).

Regarding "If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths", I would say that the most straightforward reading of this would be "once spren start bonding with men again, then it is natural to expect them to progress with their Oaths and so long as that continues then they will naturally reach the peak power of the Oaths". Or to use more modern (in world) terminology, "once the bonding process begins it's natural to expect them to gain the strength of full Knights Radiant". So why is it phrased vaguely? Well, the in-world explanation would probably be that Ishar doesn't regard any people who have bonded spren to automatically be "Knights Radiant" in the same way that anyone with a spear or sword is not automatically a "soldier". Maybe there is some hidden meaning that refers to things we don't know about but that's how I understand this sentence. How it logically leads to the rest I don't know - we'd need to know what Honor was "regulating".

Regarding the quote above, I would say that the highlighted part and what is happening now is definitely not "more of the same". Assuming this quote is true, then back then Ishar was basically saying "with great power comes great responsibility" while now it's more like "you must be killed before your powers develop". You could say that one is a corrupted version of the other but they're certainly not the same. Ishar's in-world argument to Nale is this: The critical difference between then and now (according to this argument) is that Honor is no longer around to "regulate this". This is why I suggested in another thread that perhaps Honor's impending death (around the time of the Recreance) led Ishar to actually instigate the Recreance. Putting it another way, if Ishar believed in this same argument (or at least, was making it) at that time then it could become the basis for the Recreance. I don't believe we know exactly when Honor died but I believe Brandon has hinted he was close to death around the time of the Recreance or at least didn't survive much beyond it - Dalinar has not had any visions from times after it as far as we know. This doesn't tell us whether Ishar actually believes this or not or whether it's true (or plausible) or not of course.

I vaguely remember some WoB from about 2-3 years ago that suggested the Recreance was about 1500 years ago. Something like that.

It would be very interesting to know all the background theory behind the quoted points. For example, what would Honor be regulating that would make a difference? However, I don't think this necessarily tells us anything new about any historical Desolations. Firstly, per WoB, they were an inevitable result of the presence of the Heralds (if I remember that WoB correctly) and as far as I'm aware there's no hints that one has ever been caused by any other method. Secondly, whether or not Ishar has gone over to Odium, gone insane, gone paranoid or whatever, I don't think we can trust his arguments - he's either deliberately lying to Nale/Darkness or blind to reality. It's possible that Ishar's argument is technically correct but highly misleading - for example, it might require the heavy presence of Radiants for millions of years to have any chance of happening. If it's something like that then his argument isn't worth much. Ishar's argument might not be new. He might have used it to trigger the Recreance, for example. If he thinks (or is willing to argue) that Honor needs to be around for Radiants to be "safe" then Honor's impending death would imply that the Radiants must go.

Hmm. That quote really makes it sound like the Heralds did get the same bonus as the Radiants due to the interaction between Surges... but that Jezrien wouldn't have been able to find a use for his "Squire bonus" effect since he had no Squires! Bummer for him huh...

Hmm. Thanks. I must have missed that - don't remember reading it before (and I've not been on the forums much lately). That does sound like it's the same thing from how Brandon's talked about it. But since Khriss doesn't give any specific examples in the AA it's hard to be sure. Makes me wonder if the Heralds get the same thing or not. Was it ever mentioned that they have squires? Ponder. Naturally, the way they get access to the Surges is different to Radiants - does that make a difference? Still, it does seem logical to me that the individual spren would have some affect. The spren get sentience after all... so surely there's some effect on the Radiants? It may be that there's multiple things going on. For example, even when Pattern was pretty much dead Shallan still had her special memory abilities. Does that mean once you've bonded a spren that has a permanent effect (based on the Resonances between Surges) on you even if you can't access the Surges currently? How come Shallan seems to have some kind of clairvoyance as well? Is that purely related to one of the Surges? But it seems rather different to all other known usages of the Transformation and Illumination Surges.

Maybe the Resonances are due to the nature of the spren being bonded rather than the Surges. Pattern can recall things perfectly, for example. Honorspren could be considered the "spren of bonds" (more bonds, stronger bonds). Maybe. Pattern doesn't say she Soulcast people. He says she Transformed them. It's quite possible that Soulcasting is a subset of the Transformation Surge rather than being one and the same. In the same way that Lightweaving is not the be all and end all of the Illumination Surge - controlling sound is also possible and maybe more.

One thing that frequently seems to be overlooked in the scene with Shallan and the deserters is that they did not convert to her side uniformly. Gaz was the first, then most of the rest followed. However, Vathah and two of his underlings did not convert and in fact Vathah was hostile to Shallan for quite some time afterwards. This is despite the fact that Shallan was focused on Vathah. Vathah did follow after "his men" but to try to keep them alive rather than because he believed in Shallan. This is something more in line with what I would expect from Emotional Allomancy - ie it's more like she was pushing on an open door. In addition, if Soulcasting a single simple object is hard why should it be easy to "Soulcast" a whole group of people - people would be inherently harder to change because they have much more Investiture. I have a vague memory of reading a WoB that said that in general it's impossible even for Shards to control people - that the examples we saw in Mistborn are special cases depending on special circumstances within the books. It's quite possible that Shallan was in fact using the Transformation Surge but not Soulcasting. I don't remember reading that they are one and the same. It might also be somewhat related to the "squire bond". There's also hints that Shallan was unusually capable of having a positive influence on people around her even when she had no active Nahel bond.

I've not really been active on these forums for about 2 years, so maybe there's all sorts of things that I've missed. But anyway, I was happy to finally read some more Stormlight. While Lift was never my favourite character, I enjoyed this short story and am generally feeling more positive about her character and potential. I don't have much to add since most of it has already been covered. One thing I've not seen much discussion of is "Darkness" and his motivations: In WoR he seemed very certain and seemed to have lots of agency. However, I always felt that was probably insane - or at least, I thought it was dangerous to take his words as is, despite him being a Herald. Well, the quote above and others makes it clear that if anything he's more of a pawn. Why is he hunting down Radiants? Essentially, because Ishar told him so. Will Radiants coming back definitely cause a new Desolation? No, only a "small chance" and to be honest I doubt we can trust Ishar on this either since he was wrong about the return of the Voidbringers. I'm not sure if Ishar was simply lying to Darkness (for his own benefit) or actually believed it. If he really believes it to be a real risk then maybe Ishar was behind a number of dark events in Roshar's history. On a more general note, though we don't see it there's clearly a lot of discussion going on between the governments of this world about the "new storm that blows the wrong way". Dalinar wasn't trusted on this until rather too late and some have taken to suspecting him for causing it in the first place. It looks like much of SA3 will be focused on the initial reaction to this storm and attempts to coordinate a response. If Lift gets more involved in this she would be able to tell the others that the Assassin in White isn't actually dead and that there's a Herald running around killing Radiants.

I guess you were thinking (maybe subconsciously) that the spikes are pre-programmed on creation to do one thing only when "triggered" by a certain action. Instead, it actually takes intent + action to activate them. I'd guess that the "intent" doesn't have to come from the person making the action either - ie Ruin's intent via someone he's influenced works as well.

I've wondered if it might be Taravangian. Sounds like something out of The Diagram sometimes... though I remember looking at it closely and being less certain (possibly because it was 'tuned' a bit to be suitable for back cover blurb)

The interesting thing for me about the Diagram is how it's basically become a "religious" document for Taravangian (depending on your definition of religious). It's (supposedly) the path to salvation. it effectively makes prophesies about the future. Taravangian is the high priest and feels that it's his mission to enact it, regardless of the cost. It's rather different in practice to your "typical" religious text but to Taravangian it's the equivalent to the Word of God. Unfortunately, their understanding of it is imperfect and it's usefulness will probably get worse with time rather than better... and to me that's the real flaw.