FeatherWriter

Ah, I've always loved this theory. Great to see it confirmed. Didn't Brandon once say that there was a Terriswoman worldhopper in Warbreaker somewhere? I'd always assumed that was Aslydin, though I don't think we've ever found her? It's interesting how close her name is to Elhokar's wife, though. Aslydin. Aesudan. A-S-D-N are the main letter progressions in both.

Actually, this is correct. ren-AHR-in is the correct pronunciation. Took me a long while to reteach myself that one. Also yes, the K is in the last syllable for Elhokar. Not Elkohar. I will say, I've been punching away at a pronunciation guide for the cosmere -- to the best of my very limited knowledge -- for a few months, but this thread convinced me to finally post it. It's here on tumblr, and I'll probably keep that one updated, but I'll copy-paste into a spoiler tag for those who don't want to look at something super long.

Curses. The Feather has been successfully baited. She falls for that trick every time.

Actually I believe this is the other way around. Brandon had hesitated to give me an answer, out of concern that there already was an eye color in the wiki that he'd forgotten about. Peter has since confirmed that there is no currently canon eye color for Renarin, which means the ball is in Barndon's court to actually pick one out. Unless I've missed a part of the convo, in which case, link pls?

October 6th? The day after my birthday! Thanks for the present, Brandon!

Elsa. I'll fight you and whomever you bring, together.

Harmony bless everyone in this chat. I've actually gotten it confirmed that there is no currently canonized eye color for Renarin, so it's up to Brandon to make one up. This one's not on Peter for right now!

Sorry Slow! I'm not going to pretend I'm not biased, but yeah, it's definitely not among my favorite scenes. They're just not really a pairing that I'm fond of, but a lot of that is personal preference, and my... extensive history with other ships. I think your point that Kaladin's POV is limited here and that he doesn't know the full situation is valid, absolutely, and I was probably too harsh on him for thinking her smiling through the pain was a good thing. Also, glad you liked this! CFSBF!

*starts singing the 'aaaaaamen' parts of Take Me to Church* I have forever said that Renarin's whole schtick is that he's a very valuable character who cannot see his own value. He has so many wonderful qualities, but because he (as a product of his Alethi society) is so focused on the things he doesn't have, he feels useless. And he breaks my heart over and over again, dangit.

<moderator voice> I'll come in and say that, I'm fairly sure, as a mod, bringing this topic back up after months without new information counts as thread necromancy, and probably shouldn't have happened. That said, there's obviously a discussion in here again, so we might as well keep going right? Just try to avoid necroing threads in the future, guys. </moderator voice> ...especially when the original topic is "I think Renarin deserves to be appreciated more!" and the person to bring it back says "actually I really dislike Renarin a lot." Okay, for those few who aren't aware, I'd probably lay my life down for Renarin Kholin if he were real and I'm not even joking. Personally, my reaction to people not liking him tends to be a mix between a protective hiss and an uncontrollable urge to write fourteen page thesis papers in his defense. But it's finals week. And I am so so so so so very tired. Even my overwhelming love for Renarin cannot sustain me to write defenses while I am exhausted like this. So, I'm kinda here... but I'm probably not going to be making major responses the way I usually might. Those of you are wondering why people love Renarin or wondering why people find him engaging, or really, anything at all about Renarin, I can answer questions at least. *sleepy wave*

This reminds me a little bit of the time when I was feeling down and one of my friends decided to make a really cute headcanon about Renarin braiding Shallan's hair with flowers, and... it kind of spiraled onward from there. And then Silver, because Silver is amazing, drew Kaladin with flowery pigtails, and then Adolin getting flower-crowned by his brother and fiancée.

*High fives Botanica* One of these days I will probably cave and write Shallan/Mraize fic, but that would have to be some time when I'm not ridiculously busy, which is never. I love those kinds of ships with a dark twist to it, and I love Mraize to death. He's exactly the kind of vilianous character I love to fall for. (So why not have Shallan fall for him too, huh? Hehehe...) Yeah the point of most of those ships wasn't necessarily "ooh I think this should happen" so much as just trying out the different ships to see what interesting things might happen, some obviously more plausible than others. Ships are a little bit like clothes in that regard. Sometimes you just want to grab everything off the rack and take them to the dressing room to see what they look like. Sometimes it just doesn't really work at all, like Kalasnah (Kaladin/Jasnah) shipping, for me. Or maybe there's something in there that's cute but I probably wouldn't spend money on it, which would be something like Shadolin (Adolin/Shallan). Or maybe it fits okay, but it's just totally unintresting to look at, like Shalladin (Kaladin/Shallan). And sometimes it's a perfect fit and you want to wear it every day and show it to every single one of your friends, like Shallarin (Renarin/Shallan) for me. Maybe there's a friend who has worn a certain kind of shirt for years and swears up and down that it's the best shirt ever and you should totally get one, but you've never gotten what they see in it... and then they loan it to you and you try it on and -- surprise -- it's actually wonderful and you feel silly for never seeing it before. That's Kalarin for me (Kaladin/Renarin). And other times you're not even shopping but you walk by a window and see something and it's the most gorgeous thing you've ever seen and you have to have one right now it is the greatest thing ever suddenly. That would be what Words of Radiance did to Kadolin (Kaladin/Adolin) for me. Sometimes clothes and ships come in different colors and one color might me more appealing than another. So while Kaladin/Veil and Kaladin/Shallan are technically the same ship, they've got a different feel and a different situation. Renarin/Shallan before and after Words of Radiance are very different ships, but I love them both for different reasons. In some ways that Shallarin ship feels like a beloved warm sweater that got a big tear down the side and now I've gotta try to stitch it back together and salvage what I can. And sometimes you try something on and you know you would never actually wear it out of the store but you grab it off the rack and man it's a lot of fun to try on in the dressing room and maybe show off to your few close friends who are with you there. That's something like the Mraize/Shallan ship for me. It's that little black dress that's way too risqué for me to purchase, but there's no harm in wearing it for a little bit, right? That fun little guilty pleasure ship that I love. And of course, sometimes there is that bright neon orange leather jacket that seriously no one in their right mind would ever think looked good, but you're in a fun mood and decide you wanna try it on just to see how terrible it really is. That would be crack shipping and oh Harmony is crack shipping fun. And sometimes you go into a ship well aware of how absurd it is and not thinking you'll find anything in there worthwhile at all, but when you start tossing around possibilities, there's something interesting about it after all. (Ask Fruity about her Rashek/Ruin ship sometime if you want a crack ship turned real ship. Or ask Shroom about the Vin/Human ship if you want a crack ship that will always and forever be a crack ship.) ...I don't know why I just spent the last half hour typing up a clothes shopping/shipping analogy in this thread, but I guess its done now and I'm actually kinda glad I did. That was really fun.

WoR Prime Spoilers:

Relationship fun with Veil, AKA Feather puts her shipping goggles on: Kaladin/Veil: Kaladin vs. dangerous Ghostblood agent Veil and trying to stop her from doing whatever mission she's been put up to. As he investigates her, however, he finds himself intrigued by the darkeyed woman who almost speaks like a lighteyes and senses there's something familiar about her... Meanwhile Shallan has to try to keep up the act and make sure that Kaladin doesn't ever connect the dots or there could be trouble for her. Adolin/Veil: Adolin runs into an interesting darkeyed stranger and can't stop thinking about her. He feels very guilty for not being faithful to Shallan, especially when all of his girl troubles seem to start because he can't keep his eyes from wandering and tries very hard to forget about it. Shallan is just kind of shaking her head like "oh you adorable idiot did you really just start crushing on both versions of me?" Renarin/Veil: My personal favorite because I am a Shallarin shipper through and through. A Lightweaver uses Illumination to create illusions and lies, but a Truthwatcher uses Illumination to see into the true heart of the matter. When Renarin runs into "Veil" his powers allow him to know exactly who she is. He tries to hide the fact that he knows, because he realizes this is a dangerous secret, but when she finds out that he's discovered her, she has to make a choice between doing what is necessary to protect her identity and finally having someone who knows the truth. Basically, I'm an absolute sucker for relationships between "the Liar" and "the One Who Cannot be Lied to" and I was already a sucker for Shallarin so yeeeeeeep. Mraize/Veil: My guilty pleasure ship, because I am such a Mraize fangirl. I've got a hunch that while the Ghostbloods are morally questionable, they're not as unequivocably "evil" as we originally believed. Mraize has found out her secret, but the fact that the newest Ghostblood recruit also happens to be an influential Knight Radiant in training and the betrothed of a Highprince's heir only makes her more valuable. As Shallan finds out more of the Ghostblood's side of things, she's caught in a conflict of loyalties between the Kholins and the Knights Radiant and Mraize and the Ghostbloods. She starts to see her two identities as more and more separate, allowing her to justify the increasing contradictions in her actions. While Shallan is betrothed and loyal to Adolin, Veil is more of a wild card, and Mraize is oh so fond of his new recruit. I'm not even going to try to justify that last ship, just leave me here in my pile of shipping garbage and allow me to roll around in this relationship trash. It is every kind of guilty pleasure kind of ship and I don't even care. Renarin/Veil Shallarin shipping is my jam though. Man I love it so much.

I'm guessing most of the things in there will not end up being canon, as Brandon withheld most of the chapters that have spoilers, but if I might ask what it was you were interested in?

Kyats, I'm not sure if you are planning on reading the Way of Kings Prime chapters that got released in the Altered Perceptions anthology, but I'll tell you that under those circumstances, Adolin (who is named Aredor in that draft) and Kaladin (who is named Merin) are actually very friendly toward each other. As you might know, the first draft of Way of Kings had Kaladin/Merin accepting the Shardblade he won and becoming a Lord. Aredor is the one who introduces him to the court and helps him feel welcome. Aredor does things like take Merin shopping for clothes, helps him find a swordmaster to learn how to use his Plate and Blade, and introduces him to all of the ladies of the court. It's almost... a surreal experience to read about Aredor and Merin being such good friends and liking each other so much, when I'm used to Kaladin and Adolin snarking at each other and bickering back and forth. When you have a version of Kaladin that doesn't have a reason to hate lighteyes or nobles (there aren't eye color differences between nobles and peasants in Way of Kings Prime), lots of things change about his relationships with the Kholin brothers.

I don't think you misunderstood, it's just that I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. I think that as you said, Adolin killing Sadeas outside fo a duel would always be unjustified. It would have been the wrong choice to make in the storm shelter, it was the wrong choice to make here. Not necessarily because the act itself of killing Sadeas would be wrong, but because of the consequences which will follow and the fact that this was an impulsive moment of uncontrolled weakness for Adolin. He gave into a base urge, and that's going to cost him dearly. So, Brandon, having established that Adolin taking his rage out on Sadeas would always be wrong, sets the scene in a way to emphasize just how wrong it is. He makes sure that every aspect of the way it happened leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The canon facts in and of themselves are then aided by Brandon's presentation of them in order to give the correct impression to the reader. Moogle, I can see where you're coming from with this, but I will say that I disagree. For me, this is righteous anger, Kaladin at his utmost of protection thus far as he faces an opponent that unquestionably deserves to die in his eyes. Seeking to kill someone doesn't always equate bloodlust in my eyes, even when the killing is done without regret. To Kaladin, this is justice and in similar vein to the way he acted on the Tower, he is the force standing between those he protects, and a force seeking to harm them. The difference in this case is that Kaladin's relationship with the Parshendi and Kaladin's relationship with Szeth are two wildly different things. To Kaladin, the Parshendi hadn't done anything personally. The only reason he had to kill them was that they were on opposite sides of this particular battlefield. Kaladin wasn't interested in the Vengance Pact and he'd never had those he loved attacked or treated maliciously by Parshendi at all. They were simply enemy soldiers, and as he found while fighting them, enemy soldiers with a high standard of ethics. Therefore, he respected them, and felt some regret at having to kill them. I want to make that point clear, that Kaladin did not regret killing the Parshendi because killing itself is wrong in his eyes. He regretted killing the Parshendi because they treated him with honor and respect, and he had no personal reason to kill them other than that they were opposing him on the field. Now take Szeth. This is someone who has tried to kill Dalinar and those around him multiple times. This is the person who killed King Gavilar -- and while Kaladin may not really care about one more dead lighteyes, he's certainly not happy about the war taking place in the first place. Szeth is, indirectly, the reason he's there on the Shattered Plains. The reason he had to run bridges at all. Szeth has killed monarchs across the globe and caused chaos through the nations. Kaladin doesn't know about the oathstone, and he doesn't know that Szeth isn't the one pulling the strings on everything that's happening. All he knows is that Szeth is responsible for it. So when Kaladin faces him, he's facing one of the greatest threats to both the safety of the world and the safety of those sworn under his care. And by this point, Szeth's starting to lose it, so rather than the calm and honorable Shin warrior who only kills when he's ordered to, Szeth has started going after targets just for the hell of it, and he's raving madly as he does so. To Kaladin, this is a dangerous madman who has killed hundreds across Roshar and caused chaos in a world on the brink of something terrible, and Kaladin has absolutely no regrets in putting him down. I don't see Kaladin as being gleeful or full of bloodlust here. He doesn't savor killing Szeth or take any especial pleasure in the act, but he's determined and set in his course, and he's bolstered by his belief that this is unquestionably the right thing to do, and filled with a justified anger for those he's lost as he does so.

Yeah, I certainly agree. It's fascinating seeing where everything came from, but I'm glad that Bradon put off SA for later. It's incredible how much he's improved as a writer. He's really fantastic, and you can see it's because he's worked hard and put a lot of effort into just writing a lot and learning how to write. It gives not-so-great writers like me hope that one day we can improve too! Botanica, it's definitely a fascinating read! I don't know what the chances are that China will ever get copies of Altered Perceptions, but if there's an e-version released, you should see if you can pick that one up!

It. Is. Finished. Oh, Harmony, Peter. Chapter 6, I cried. Literally no one else would cry at that but I totally did and it was amazing and thank you thank you thank you thank you. Like Weiry said, I did do some liveblogging of it, and since tumblr can be difficult to navigate for people who aren't used to it, I'll copy and paste into spoiler tags here. Be warned, there are spoilers for WoK Prime (yes, it's very different, there are spoilers) and Words of Radiance here.

I would say that Kaladin was alone (aside from Syl) when he killed Szeth, as they were way up in the sky in the midst of the storm when it happened. However, you're right in that the army members were aware that Kaladin was fighting Szeth, even if they weren't actually there when it happened. I still say that even if there had been witnesses around for Adolin and Sadeas' fight it would have still been wrong and bad. There's some foreshadowing of this when Sadeas and Adolin are in the same storm shelter. Again, Sadeas seems to goad Adolin, trying to push him to attack. Amaram is the one who stops Adolin in this case, but Sadeas wanted to be attacked, because he knew that it would have major consequences for Adolin. He made a mistake in goading Adolin when they were alone and underestimating how quickly Adolin would snap, but the fact remains that Sadeas new that this would be a bad thing for Adolin and for that reason, wanted it to happen. We see this very clear foreshadowing that Adolin killing Sadeas outside of a duel is wrong and goes against everything he and his father are standing for. Therefore, when it actually happens, we know that Adolin has just majorly messed up.

Sorry, this will probably be a long reply since I'm coming into this convo so late. I've got some thoughts on murder and Knight Radiant oaths (and especially about Jasnah, gotta defend my girl Jasnah). Going back to the original topic however: Why do people think that killing Sadeas will destroy Adolin? Simple. Because that's what the text wants you to think. Sometimes I think in these discussions, we tend to evaluate the characters as though they were real people, as though their actions stood outside the context of a fictional narrative. In a lot of cases, this is a good thing, but in a situation like this, I think it's important to remember that Adolin is a character within a story, and there are things outside of the canon facts of the text that can clue us in to the way we're supposed to be reading a scene. Think of something like a TV show or a movie. Maybe you have a female character coming home after a long day of work and relaxing. But, if this is in a horror story, you're probably feeling nervous and anxious as things get tense. This scene might be 'relaxing' but to the audience, it's really nervewracking. If this is an action movie, there's probably a relaxing lull in the action, but we're ready and waiting for the next plot twist to happen, maybe an attack by the enemy just when she thinks she's safe. If this is a romcom, it's probably a happy scene and we're probably waiting for something funny or cute to happen. Movies and TV shows clue us in to the way we're supposed to be feeling about the scene through things like camera angles, lighting, color tones, and especially soundtrack. Even before the revealing plot point shows up, even if you didn't actually know the genre of the movie/show going in, you could probably figure out what's supposed to happen. A really good writer can do the same thing with a book. And Brandon's one of the best right? Choosing to add some details over others, choosing certain words, emphasizing parts of the story over others, these can all influence the way a reader perceives a situation. This scene, the way that it's presented, is not meant to make you think that Adolin has done the right thing here. Yes, you can certainly justify killing Sadeas because Sadeas is a horrible person who did terrible things to Adolin and his family, but the way this scene reads is that Adolin has just made a huge mistake. The descriptions of the act are brutal, and the way that Adolin snaps and loses control gives us the sense that this is a mistake borne of a moment of weakness. We get the idea that if Adolin had been thinking clearly, if he hadn't let his emotions get the better of him, he wouldn't have done this. That loss of control is presented negatively, and we understand that what Adolin is doing is bad for him, even if we don't think that the act of killing Sadeas was wrong. This is a lapse of judgment, a weak point for him, and it's presented as such. We get a sense like that, which clues the reader in that this was a mistake, and it's going to have consequences. Beyond that, Adolin's own reactions to what he's done give us the sense that this was a bad thing that just happened. People made the argument that Sadeas has probably killed more people with his betrayal maneuver than Szeth ever killed. Yet, when Kaladin kills Szeth, it's a heroic scene. Kaladin is presented at his strongest, at the culmiation of another large step in his character growth. Killing Szeth (even if he didn't stay dead) was unequivocably the right thing to do and there is a sense of satisfaction, both for Kaladin and for the reader, when it is accomplished. There is no such satisfaction with Adolin. HIs immediate reactions are panic and guilt. No matter how justified the killing might have been, Adolin believes that he's just done something very wrong and he needs to hide the evidence, deny all connections with it, and make sure that no one finds out what happened. That kind of guilt in and of itself tends to be a debilitating factor in a character's life, even if we didn't have the greater narrative warning us that consequences and bad things are imminent because of this action. The sense at the end of the scene is apprehension and worry, not triumph and victory. I remember, personally, feeling somewhat robbed in reading that scene. I was wanting Sadeas' death to be this great moment of success and for it to be satisfying to see justice done. Brandon took that away from us, intentionally, making sure that we knew this wasn't a good thing. We get this ominous sense of foreboding and rather than feeling satisfied that this evil man has been destroyed, we feel worried and anxious for the character who did it. TL;DR : The scene in which Adolin kills Sadeas is narratively structured to cause apprehension on the part of the readers for Adolin, his character in general, and his ultimate fate. Brandon uses structural details and scene framing to get the point across that, even entirely apart from the possibly justifications of the killing, the action was a dangerous mistake on Adolin's part due to a lapse in judgment, and that consequences are sure to follow.

PETER! OH MY GOODNESS, DID YOU REALLY? ...I knew sending you all of those keys in Jelly Splash on Facebook would pay off. I haven't gotten all the way through the excerpt but I'm definitely curious what part it was. Right now Merin and Aredor are going clothes shopping (which is fantastic, I love it). I will say, the earlier parts with Renarin had me screaming at Elhokar and crying over Renarin a lot. I was in class. It was very embarrassing. For those wondering where people are getting the book, it was a part of an anthology called Altered Perceptions that was sent out for backers of its Indiegogo campaign, I believe. It's been a while since I signed up, so I don't fully remember the details. Squirenonny typed up a cool guide to what's going on for people who are confused. Like Weiry said, I've been trying to liveblog, but I read quite a bit in class or at work, and I wasn't near my laptop at those times. I'll try to catch back up. Supposing that y'all even care about reading my nonsense reactions. I've been putting them under *Read More* breaks so that there aren't spoilers for the people who follow me. Peter, I have to say I've had a super long day of classes, and then work was crazy and exhausting, and coming home to find this on 17th Shard pretty much made it all worth it and I feel amazing now, thank you. Cosmere fandom is still the best fandom, and that's partially because Peter and Brandon are so awesome to all of us with these great stories and being so wonderful.

One thing to note: Brandon won't answer vague "tell me something new about the Cosmere" questions anymore, since he used to get a lot of them. The two times that I've gotten books personalized by Brandon, once through the online store, once in person, I asked if he could tell me anything about Renarin (big surprise) and he was able to give me some cool tidbits both times! Try to ask for something specific, or about a certain topic, and you're more likely to get a response!

If you've got a tumblr account, you can post them with the tag #cosmere challenge though seeing as most people here probably don't have accounts, feel free to post here or post links here if you'd like to post it somewhere else!

So this is a fun idea that the lovely Silver (also found here) came up with a little while ago, and I'm going to go ahead and cross post it here. Mostly because I need to be more active over here and it's a super fun thing. Basically, the idea of Cosmere Challenge is a fun prompt with a deadline that people can respond to. The idea is to give you a little bit of a creative kick and to get the fandom inspired to create some fun things. Art, fanfic, graphics, animations, poetry, whatever. So long as it's on topic, have at it! Please note, Cosmere Challenges are not contests. There's no prize for having the best entry or anything like that. It's just a fun way to come together, make fun things, and see fun things that other people have made! This week's prompt (crossposted from here): Sound like fun? Let's go!