Kyats Rani

That would be very interesting to see in the canon, but hard to pull out But hey, we are talking about Brandon here, he may just do this and make it sound logical She does. Pickles (different kinds of them), jams (cherry, apricot, blackcurrant, redcurrant, and my favourite apple ones), juices (the kind you add water to - mostly raspberry and blackcurrant ones) and many other things And she always says I'm too thin so I got 6 big chops, 36 dumplings and 3 liters of baked beans Not to mention 20 sweet buns with apple and half of a cake You at least have kids to share the cakes with them, I had to eat all of it before it became stale... Let's just say that my roommates love me now enough to forgive my sudden bursts of laughter while reading some things at this forum Call it a hunch :ph34r: But where is the challenge if the one you're talking to doesn't have a strong opinion? I like challenges Luckily for all readers. How do you even read some of those?

Ok, now I recall the scene, but I don't remember any high-fives. I never said Adolin isn't hormonal by this point, I'd very surprised if he weren't (no credibility at all). I only say that he has some amazing self-control. Yet... But with him being unaccustomed to such things and having no experience whatsoever, he kind of reminds me of Susebron, and he caught up pretty quickly :ph34r: Yup, that's what I meant. I can't wait to see how it went for other Radiants. Then I'll count how many of them managed to pick up their skills with little to no effort and how many of them struggled (by now - Kaladin and Lift are in the first group, Renarin unknown, on Shallan I'm not so sure and Dalinar seems also part of the first group, only Jasnah in the second one). Basing on that I will try to decide whether there are some geniuses among the Radiants or it's just rather common to learn Surges immediately. Anyway, right now I have no idea what to make of it. That's more or less how our measurement course looks like - lectures are all some hard formulas and theories, in the laboratory we go simply "what happens if I push this button? what will change if I put the cable here and not in the other hole?"... Yup, I'm not surprised... Boromir is I think the most misunderstood character in LotR. When I first read the book (I was only 7, so it wasn't very valid opinion) I thought he was a jerk. Now, after 11 years and +- 8 rereads, I see him in a different light, much better one. He made mistakes but he wanted to do well for his people. Aragorn also wasn't too fair on him... Funny thing is that my favourite characters stayed exactly the same over the years, but for slightly different reason (as a kid I liked Merry and Pippin because they were funny, later I came to see them both as brave and determined characters who are also good role-models... but of course they're still funny too ). I had a feeling that Szeth was walking through the battlefield, Adolin spotted him, thought him to be a messanger and went to him to ask himfor news Well, I see nothing wrong with talking about cats (I tend to do it quite much...) :ph34r: I guess I'll have to take your words on this. I have exactly no experience with romantic relationships (I'm kind of hopeless like that ) so I'm willing to believe people who actually know what they're talking about. But still, personally I would think a person who starts to talk about poop on a date kind of strange But I guess it did work for those two... Surprisingly... (sorry for no clear quote, my post was already getting long) 1. I agree, this decision wasn't that bad considering circumstances. It's Dalinar behaviour later what is the matter of concern. maxal was right to point out the balcony "accident" - Kaladin's men were logically first ones to be suspicious about it, but Dalinar didn't even consider this possibility. It's things like that what is wrong about Dalinar's attitude. 2. That's an interesting take. Maybe Shallan would really have much less problems if she wasn't afraid that finding answers would unlock her memories... As for Kaladin - that's actually right. As soon as he figured out how to change the direction of gravity, all he had to do was get used to this and fight his fear - this can be done in one night (of course with the right attitude and considerable amount of determination, which Kaladin definitely had). Later it was all about trying different things (partial lashings or multiple lashings - it was a matter of trial and error, he was simply doing things to find out what will happen). And he mentioned liking high places and feeling a connection to the wind ever since childhood - something that helped him while it couldn't help Shallan as she forced herself to surpass those memories.

Ok, I get it. It may be true that personally Renarin won't be affected so much even if the society starts openly hating him, he's used to being inferior. But still there would be an impact on the whole family - public opinion is cruel. Yeah, Renarin slowly starts to be more independent in his life than he used to be. The way it used to be in WoK, losing Adolin would completely crush poor Renarin. Now, he will be affected by this but he will pull through, propably better than Adolin.

Oh, thanks! But still I will try to get the book And stuffing them with food... When I last visited my grandma I could barely lift my backpack full of pierogi (kind of like dumplings but something different), chicken chop, cookies and jars with pickles and jams... How did you know... I know how it feels But I realized long ago that stubborn but not aggressive people make the best partners in discussion. You should hear how much I "argued" with one of my classmates about everything and neither one of us was willing to admit the other's right... Good memories

I didn't say it was one of her greatest accomplishments. It was just one of many things that went well for her. She started talking about excrements at the first date and still had a second one? I have a hard time buying this, I get she was genuine, but I honestly... If Adolin didn't simply want to keep a relationship for the sake of it (later he did really fall for Shallan, but I think that in the beginning it was only his desire not to screw up with another girl) he would propably retallitate at the word "poop". Call the girl lucky. By the look of it Shallan seems more hormonal than Adolin... I mean, he does have some self-control... When it was in public? I recall the one time in her room after she returned form the chasms and one time in Urithiru... By the way, I regret both times were from Shallan's PoV. I'd love to see Adolin's perspective on this... They'll screw up but work it out in the end... Happy end, bunch of children and so on True, I've forgotten Eshonai... As for Kaladin - when Adolin finally took a step towards bettering (is that even a word?) the relations between them, he still didn't know what's up with Kal, he simply came to the conclusion that whatever is this, it doesn't truly matter and it's alright to trust Kaladin. I think he insinuated something like this when they were talking in the prison... In Shallan's case... Let's blame the feelings of a young man who wants true love... Good for him that Kaladin was wrong and Shallan was no assasin. Otehrwise things would go badly Agree about Renarin. He's a big boy and he wants to prove that to his family... Shallan at the age of 11 (when she killed her mother) had already achieved mastery in lightweaving - she even knew how to create sound. I think she was a bit younger when she learned how to do this. Genius kid I say... Not that Lift is so much better. What is she? 12 or 13? Another genius kid - but I guess some of her abilities she had to learn simply in order to survive. Maybe Progression is triggered by a true need. Like, Renarin tries and tries but cannot get it right and then his brother almost dies and Renarin is the only one able to save him so he does? I have no idea how this works. Wyndle told Lift that Progression is harder to learn than Abrasion (at least I understood him so), yet we know that she trained Abrasion (again, Wyndle said so) but Progression was just... She needed it so she used it. I don't need to be Adolin to sense that something is kind of off about this... Well, one thing is what will be useful and other what we need to know to get a degree in the first place I swear at least one subject we take is made solely for the sake of failing as many students as possible... I have a feeling she used that particular parallel because she knows that Eowyn is my very favourite character from LotR (closely followed by Merry and Pippin) But I think she meant it as Eowyn killed the Nazgul but she didn't win the battle and same for Kaladin - he killed Szeth but he didn't win the battle. On it's own both those events would mean nothing if not for the efforts of others. And I see your point in Szeth wanting a fight with Dalinar. I mostly agree but I still don't think that he came willingly to Adolin. He wanted to go straightly to Dalinar but Adolin interrupted him. But why no spectacular entrance? Why he was sneaking around? Did he want to fight Dalinar only and not to raise suspicions so nobody else would attack him and therefore force him to kill more people? Nice one, but I don't think that Kaladin would actually see something familiar in Veil. But Shallan would struggle to make sure she does nothing to catch his suspicions about her double identity... I think Adolin would immediately be suspicious of Veil as soon as he met her. He would sense something is off with her. He's more likely than Kaladin to see something familiar in her. I'm not convinced he would start falling for Veil, but he would make a connection that Veil acts/speaks a bit like Shallan. Oh, I love this one. I want this to happen - Renarin finding out Shallan's secret. He would propably try to tell someone, maybe Adolin, but he would be dismissed. Then he could confront Shallan and she would beg him not to reveal her secret, explaining why exactly she must keep doing this... That's actually what I think Truthwatchers do - they find out what others try to hide. While I have troubles seeing this relationship work out anyhow, I agree with the otehr things you mentioned here. The conflict of loyalities, Shallan and Veil becoming more separate... That's very interesting. And yet I don't see Mraize as such kind of person... Overall, Feather, very interesting ideas Some of them I'd really love to see in canon

You are right. We don't know when or if the truth about Renarin's powers will be known to the public, but I have a feeling it will be sooner or later. If this information will end up known to everyone I'm afraid Renarin won't be simply looked down upon like he was before - Vorin people believe that seeing the future is a thing of Voidbringers, so they will hate Renarin, not just laugh at him. Right now I think Dalinar will be very supportive towards Renarin (as much as he can without neglecting his duties) - he always kind of identified with his younger son, being the second son himself. Actually, thanks for pointing out that the rift between Kholin brothers seems to form in WoR already. Somehow I missed it, but now that you mention it I see what you mean. It's not very significant yet, especially taking into account how Renarin supported his brother before his every duel. But something is up, comparing to WoK. Only now it will be propably much worse. I still think that falling apart with Adolin for real will impact Renarin. One thing is moving out of brother's shadow, other is completely losing said brother's support. Maybe it won't be that bad considering circumstances, but it will still affect Renarin (but mostly Adolin I think).

Oooh, really? Sounds nice I hope I will be able to get my hands on Altered Perceptions but we will have to see... There's no chance it will be available in print here in Poland (we got WoK just this year and I think we don't have Warbreaker, but not so sure on this) and I don't know if I'll be able to buy e-book... But hopefully As a kind of Polish student that's here called "słoik" (the word słoik means jar - the name comes from the fact that most students bring themselves food in jars from home ) I don't have too much money, but what are godparents and grandmothers for? It's hard for me to imagine Kaladin and Adolin such a good friends. I mean I do believe they will be best friends in the upcoming books, but their snarking and bickering will most definitely remain - that's the best part Clothes shopping? I don't know about Merin but I have a feeling that Kaladin would run as far as he can Introducing to the ladies wouldn't work out too - most of them hate Adolin and throw things at him when he gets too close (like Jenet did)... That swordsmaster, that's Zahel (Vasher), right? Is there Nightblood around too? I just finished Warbreaker and I love Nightblood so I can't wait to see more of him in Stones Unhallowed My roommate can't believe that my favourite character from the book is a sword though

I sometimes am too. But if somebody tries to provide me arguments to the contrary, I listen to them and not dismiss them like most people do. It's being unwilling to accept somebody else's arguments what annoys me. If you dislike a character but somebody else likes him/her I think it's the right thing to let them explain why they like said character instead of claiming they're stupid and wrong. At least that's what I think. And you seem to me as willing to discuss the opinions of others' even when you disagree. I guess you are right, but still I think were their family situations switched they would simply switch palces. Regardless of the fact if Adolin wanted to become a soldier or not, I see him as becoming one to protect his younger brother. And whenever Adolin does something, anything, he does his best in this. If Adolin and Kaladin met in different circumstances, in a place/culture when eye color doesn't matter (like in the modern era), but still having exactly the same personalities and behaviours, I'm 100% sure they would be best friends. The kind of best friends that always bickers, of course For a while I wanted to use over-protective But I don't think anybody can deny they would pull something like this. I only fail at finding other possible members of this club... Too bad I have nothing to move to... And no pictures But I got some simpler problems form my friend who's studying physics (with answers) so I can train It's not that I feel but for defending my favourite character. But way too many times (not on 17th shard but generally) I saw people who defend their favourites so fiercely that they refuse to see fault in them and blame all other characters or the people who dare to insult the character they like I don't want to be such person. I understand that Kaladin is a flawed character. I like him anyway, even though his flaws do make me want to whack him with a book (WoR prefarably)

Not exactly. I would just sooner see Adolin protecting than learning/giving or being pious I'm not saying I think this would happen - I'm saying that theoretically the possibility exists. I agree with this. Renarin will have problems due to his visions. To survive this he would need much help and support from his family. Even if the Radiants and the rest of Kholins accept his abilities, most people won't as soon as they hear about them. That's rather true. But let's remember that Dalinar (and Kholins in general) has many enemies even in Alethkar (*cough*Ialai*cough*). Those people will use whatever they can find to undermine him. His son seeing the future, which is very looked down upon by Vorinism, is going to be a great weapon to be used against Dalinar. How many problems he had because of his visions? And he wasn't seeing the future... Ardentia may turn against them now. Same goes for more supersitious population of Alethkar. Renarin only starts to accept it but he still frets over it. He's not a very self-confident person. Even speaking to the other Radiants cost him much. Without support he won't be able to endure ardents and people going against him. Maybe it's not that much a new situation to him, but before he had Adolin who always stood by his side. Now, I think that the brothers will drift apart. Renarin won't have Adolin to lean upon. We know that secrets among Kholins rarely stay secret for long. Renarin kept his abilities secret for quite some time, but now he revealed them. When he's officially claimed a Radiant, there will be people wanting to know what he can do. Shallan found the Oathgate, Kaladin flies and so on. What does Renarin do, then? He sees the future? But that's evil! Until then Renarin was considered useless,but now he will be seen as "evil". Before people ignored him and laughed at him. Now they will openly antagonise him. At one point he will manage to make a difference and prove himself to be very, very useful. But it will be hard for him to do so. I think there is a bright future for him, but not just yet. Right now I don't exactly agree with your views on the subject, but you do provide good arguments. Have an upvote, if not for anything else then for giving me a chance to exercise my brain to find valid counterarguments

Well, the thing with Adolin was going very well in WoR... Though I agree, in the next book they will propably both screw it up, Shallan by having no time for Adolin and Adolin by not thinking himself good enough for her. As I said, it wasn't too smart of Dalinar to do this... And Navani didn't know that Shallan was a Radiant. Shallan told Dalinar not to tell anyone, Navani included. And yeah, Dalinar should listen to his son much more. By now Adolin is the only person in the whole SA to always be right while judging people (ok, maybe not in Shallan's case, but he fancied her so...) - he knew Sadeas was a bastard, he knew Amaram was hiding something, he knew something was up with Kaladin that's why he was so suspicious about him at first, he changed his mind only when Kaladin proved to be no threat but an ally. I actually think that Adolin sensed that Kaladin is much more than he seems (a Radiant) so he didn't know if he should trust him. If only Dalinar was so careful... Well, I'm only speculating but I have no idea if I'm even close to the real thing. Actually, Renarin is that one character whose motivations I don't get at all. I try to find reasons but I may be completely mistaken... The only thing I'm at least quite sure is why Renarin admired Kaladin - because Kal saved his family. But everything else Renarin did in this regard? I have no real idea She knew how to use Illumination when she was 10/11... I find it more surprising that a child so young could master so hard skill than an adult man who matered a similiarly hard one while he knew what he was supposed to be doing I don't know, maybe Shallan was a genius kid or maybe she had help. I have no idea. But as for right now, you're right. Recalling an ability we once knew is easier than learning a new one. As for Lift - I have no explanation but "Radiants are just so cool they know what to do". Not a very good one, I admit. Maybe she acted on instinct? I was only pointing out that in fact Kaladin wasn't oh-so-awesome in this fight. Syl was awesome and Szeth had serious disadvantage. But to see this one must think about it at least some time... To an average reader Kaladin was like a Superman or something like that. Indefinite integrals. Packed full with logarithms, roots and trigonometric functions (but not the easy ones, the worse ones like arcsin or arctg). It would be more fun if I didn't know that if I don't get them quickly I'll fail the semester I talked to my mom about this. She said (more or less, I'm translating here...) "It was obvious that Kaladin has always been the one to defeat Szeth in the end. But the whole battle was great. And that one, that prince... [Adolin, but she has problems with remembering names of characters] He was very good fighting that Parshendi woman." When I inquired if it felt like Kaladin stole the spotlight, she said: "It's like in the Lord of the Rings. Do you think that the whole battle was focused on Eowyn killing the Nazgul? The battle was about the king's [Theoden] bravery, Aragorn leading additional army and men of Gondor doing his very best in the city. Eowyn defeated the most dangerous opponent on the battlefield, but she didn't win the battle." I think that is about accurate comparision We know Dalinar was there to lead not to fight. But an average reader will see a man who didn't fight and when he tried he got hurt... And it's unfair to compare Dalinar's and Adolin's performance versus Szeth. Dalinar is a surgebinder. Besides, Adolin was fighting Szeth a bit longer and alone, with no support. No, you didn't understand what I was trying to say. It's not that Skar and Drehy had something with Adolin noticing Szeth. But they were the ones who saved him from death by falling down the chasm. If they weren't there, Adolin would fall and therefore he wouldn't notice Szeth and so on They really do deserve that "storming raise" Adolin promised them As for Szeth trying to get Adolin out of the fight - he may have as well wanted to kill him. Almost same thing was with Roion (though Roion was sent straight up). And I don't think Szeth would try to warn Dalinar if he wasn't interrupted by Adolin. If he wanted Dalinar to know he was coming, he wouldn't sneak around the battleground in a cloak. He would fall from the sky in a burst of stormlight, white clothing seen by everyone (yup, pun was intended ). True. Then maybe Truthwatcher Progression is different than Edgedancer Progression? Personally I think that seeing the future doesn't come from a certain surge but from connecting two of them: Progression and Illumination. A combo, so to say. Like Shallan using Illumination to change hearts of the others (which Pattern indicated is a way of using Transformation).

Actually, that would make four Kholin Radiants (Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah and Adolin). Adolin could possibly become Renarin's squire, but I don't believe so. It's said that some orders don't have squires at all. We don't know which ones, but I think that those non-military ones wouldn't have squires. Not all of the Radiants were warriors (I believe Jasnah said so). Some of the orders were back-up or kind of personal relations or something like that. Scholars, etc. Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and propably Elsecallers in my opinion are just those. They don't need squires. Now, those who fight on the battlefield - they need squires. Windrunners, Dustbringers, Stonewards and so on. I admit, Adolin being Renarin's squire would be great in terms of their brotherly love, but I simply doubt that Renarin will have squires at all. But he definitely wouldn't be Dalinar's squire, that one is obvious. Though I wouldn't rule out Kaladin. His opinion on lighteyes is changing, at least on some of them, Adolin being a good example. By the end of WoR they went from people unable to stand each other to almost friends. If this continues (and I hope it does) they will be best friends before the books end. I'm not saying that Adolin will be Kal's squire (he has the whole Bridge 4 and possibly other bridges as well), but I think the possibility does exist. Same for Renarin - if his order has squires in the first place, I think Adolin would do well. Yet still, I hope for Adolin to be our Dustbringer... But of course, every opinion is as good as the others

Actually, I was talking more about the generally disliked or dismissed characters that are actually good/ok but people don't even try to acknowledge it. Being rather cynical towards beloved by all characters is a good thing in my eyes. The problem I see is not giving every character a chance. Well, family and culture one grew in is definitely one of the greatest influences on a person. But I think that if Adolin's and Kaladin's lives were switched, they would be exactly like each other. You already explained it for Kaladin, so I'll go for Adolin. We know that he is the kind of person to be the son his father wants him to be. He's a soldier, leader and duelist to make Dalinar proud. He would become a surgeon to make Lirin proud. And if he became a soldier anyway, he would feel like he betrayed his father's trust (as he propably will because of killing Sadeas in a way Dalinar wouldn't approve). The thing about Adolin and Kaladin is that essentially they are very similiar to each other. What divides them is only the fact that they lived different lives. Come on, they could even make a club of protective older brothers I'm studying electronical engineering (I believe that's the right translation to english). Right now, I hate integrals. They never gave us simple examples to train, we just have to do some very hard ones where every result is a big, ugly monster taking half of the line in a notebook (A4) That's more or less what I wanted to say about Moogle's post While I admit that Kaladin's anger was kind of overdone, I think one should take into account that he has just been betrayed by his friend (somehow in his stupidity Kaladin didn't really believe that Moash will do this...) so that also made him angry (at himself, at Moash, Graves, I don't know, but generally angry). He seemed more angry and arrogant in WoR, that goes without saying. But it has been inside him in WoK too, he just had different priorities (saving bridgemen). Now it just resurfaced to a greater extent. And to be sure - I'm not trying to justify him as pure and innocent or prove that he is that great character the "average reader" sees him to be. He isn't. He's flawed, very much so. He gets annoying. He acts like a fool. He's my favourite character but sometimes I feel like whacking him up his head But then again, the same I sometimes feel towards my real-life friends...

That's true. Sorry, it was my personal mistake - I tend to see the shipwrecked Shallan as still WoK Shallan (the one I kind of liked) and the WoR Shallan (the one I don't like) is the one since Tvlakv Taking it into account - no, she didn't have it easy. I'm not even trying to disagree on that. But since meeting Tvlakv, everything Shallan touched was a success - be it Vathah, Ghostbloods, Sebarial or courting Adolin. Even the Oathgate. Jasnah Kholin, intelligent, learned, experienced scholar didn't manage to find it for so long, then suddenly a young and inexperienced girl comes, takes Jasnah's notes and gets matters done? On her own, having only said notes? Doesn't seem very plausible to me... Ok, I guess as a child not a parent I see those things a bit differently... Thank you for explaining that, it's a very valuable piece of information to me True, Dalinar's general attitude towards Kaladin was exaggerated and unfounded, regardless of Dalinar's general problem with being too trusting. I'm not denying that.Overall, Kaladin didn't do that bad again considering his inexperience and responsibility given to him... Yeah, he screwed up things, but in this situation it's understandable. What's problematic is the fact that Dalinar trusted him too much. Now, good thing is that he didn't immediately believe into the Amaram story. Readers may think he was a bastard for not believing (on the other hand, he trusted Kaladin with Elhokar's life but not with truthfulness of his words?) but in fact that was a good thing. Dalinar believed enough to investigate but not to act immediately. And that's good otherwise there would be no credibility at all... Then again, Dalinar trusted Shallan with the fate of the whole army. He had only her claims on being able to find the Oathgate to support his plan. If not for her, he would propably plan the battle differently (and ultimately it would fail, but that's other matter). He was right to trust her in the end, but without knowing that it will end like this, would it be wise to entrust lives of thousands men and fate of the kingdom (world maybe) into hands of a young girl? Same goes for the visions. Dalinar trusted them so much that it led to the tragedy on the Tower. Kaladin's case isn't really that solitary... Ok, I guess you have a bit of a different view on Renarin's motivations. But still, I admit you are right - he respects Kaladin greatly. Looking at this from the side of Kaladin being rude to Adolin, it's wrong. But for a while Renarin was convinced that he has lost both his father and his brother. He lost everything. Then he found out that they survived thanks to one man (actually the whole Bridge 4, but one man led them). If I were in such situation I would have also thought this man a miracle whom I owe not losing everything I care for. I think that is a valid reason for Renarin's respect towards Kaladin. And, well, Renarin is a Truthwatcher. What if he saw/sensed that Kaladin is a proto-Radiant? And wanted to get close to him being a proto-Radiant himself? That may have been part of the reason too. Hey, I never actually said "a lot of effort". I said he put effort into training but I didn't indicate it was a lot of effort. Similair for Shallan - as soon as she got the grasp of Illumination (using drawings to create illusions over herself), she had no problems with doing just that. What she was doing to imrpove was mostly finding new ways to use it, as she wasn't aware what exactly she could achieve with it. Kaladin, on the other hand, saw Szeth so he knew what he could possibly do -he only had to work out how to do this. But yes, he did it very quickly, too quickly even. Maybe because Syl was helping him? Well, still too quickly, but let's say it's to an extent a thing of Radiants to learn quickly (see: Lift, Wyndle said she didn't train Progression before, but he had no problems growing vines and saving Gawx; actually, Shallan did very well soulcasting the first 2 times, she failed with the stick because she was tired and had too little stormlight). My opinion on Kaladin defeating Szeth? One - Szeth was in a worse position as he was using up stormlight more quickly. Two - at the very end, Szeth didn't try too much to survive. Three - it's all actually thanks to Syl and her ability to change instantly into shield or the most convenient weapon. While it's still unfair that Kaladin learned gravity surge so quickly to be as good as Szeth. As for my integrals... Actually, if I put as much determination into learning them as Kaladin did with his gravity surge (because he was very determined) then I think I would. My problem is that my studying looks like this: 5 minutes studying, 10 minutes staring blankly at the page and thinking about... well, everything what is not integrals Hm... No. Adolin and Dalinar weren't expecting Kaladin to come at all. The bridgemen yes, but not them. They fully expected to defeat Szeth on their own or fall in battle. It's the reader who expects Kaladin to show up and save the day Adolin was outclassed by Szeth but that is understandable - he's no surgebinder yet. And yet he did well and it can be seen that he did well. Besides, as I said, Adolin's moment of glory was the fight with Eshonai (a hard opponent in her own right). And if anybody discards this for the sake of Kaladin defeating Szeth, then I'm very disappointed in this person - Adolin was a hero too. Not in fighting Szeth but in fighting Eshonai. Please, Dalinar was of far less use than Adolin in this battle! And for me, the greatest heroes of this battle are Skar, Drehy and Roion. If not for them, Adolin and Dalinar both would be dead. And they all did it without any help - no Shards, no surgebinding. Roion even paid the ultimate prize for his bravery. Ok, there's the matter that Skar and Drehy are propably Kaladin's squires, that's why they managed to keep up with Adolin and hold a man in a Shardplate above the chasm. But I think it's still their bravery what saved the day. If not for them, Adolin would die falling in the chasm, he wouldn't have spotted Szeth and engage him to protect and warn Dalinar, so Dalinar would be killed without a fight - Szeth would simply sneak up to him and bam! the job is done. As for the bridgemen fighting Parshendi - I think that Kaladin didn't forbid them to fight. He wanted Dalinar to keep them away from fighting if possible, because they were mostly untrained and he wanted to protect them from possible harm. Ok, now I'm trying to decide if you are serious of if this is sarcasm... My fried-by-integrals brain cannot really process this

It's kind of sad actually... Many great characters are hated or considered unimportant/boring by average readers (and I'm not talking only about SA now). Sometimes those are my favourite characters. I talk to somebody and they are all "what? how can you LIKE him/her?". I try to explain how said character is not what he/she seems, but rarely anybody listens. The book said so, so that must be true. Not everybody takes the effort to read bewteen the lines... I'm not saying that everyone must do this, it just seems sad that so many valuable characters are so greatly misunderstood Kaladin and Adolin are in fact too different to compare, on any ground. They both are skilled at fighting - Adolin with a sword, mostly dueling style, Kaladin with a spear, trained more to typical battles with many opponets. They are both smart, Kaladin may be more skilled with words (like when he insulted Adolin who thought it was a compliment in WoR) but Adolin is more emphatetic. They are both educated - Kal in glyphs and medicine, Adolin in politics, leadership, strategy. I hate when somebody claims that one of them is generally better than the other. They are both objectively the same good only it manifests in different ways. Now, I don't mind at all anybody claiming that he/she likes one of them more. That's why every person may have own opinion. But let it stay an opinion, not be claimed as a fact, as some people do (I'm not talking about anyone on this forum of course, but there are people who act like this). By now, Kaladin has a very obvious and important role in the books. Adolin doesn't, that's why people tend to dismiss him easily. I think Adolin is going to be more important, in fact he already is more vital to the plot than most readers give him credit for As for him being stupid for not knowing glyphs - who in real life expects a doctor to know trigonometric functions? He may know them but it's not neccessary for him so he doesn't have to. Same for Adolin. There is no immidiate need for him to know glyphs - he could, but does he have a reason for that? I don't think so. Oh, I love rambling I'm just afraid that not everyone would like to read it... Anyway, I'd propably ramble some more now, but my roommates remind me that I was supposed to start studying maths some half an hour ago... Time to confront integrals. I think I'd rather meet up with Szeth...

Yeah, you are right about it. But still, Kaladin at least has those bumps along the way while I didn't see any for Shallan. Dalinar's trust and patience with Kaladin is rather overdone, true. But then again, Dalinar also put the fate of the whole army in Shallan's hands without hesitation. I'm not trying to say that it's fair that Dalinar treated Kaladin like that, I'm only pointing out that Dalinar has a strange tendency to do this As for the contrast between how he treated Kaladin and Adolin - I may be mistaken, but basing on me and some of my friends (and our parents of course) I think that parents generally expect more from their children than from other people. Dalinar wants to prepare his son for the job the best as he can. He saw what Kaladin did and assumed that he's already prepared (I'm not saying it's right, I think he actually wasn't, but that's how Dalinar apparently saw this...). So in this case I'd put the problem on Dalinar not on the creation of other characters... I can't possibly disagree that in the end Kaladin always ended up saving the day. He did. But never truly on his own. I'm not even talking about Syl here. But let's see... The Tower? He did save the day. But would he manage to do this on his own, without the help of Bridge 4? If they didn't hold the bridge while he was lying there, exhausted? If Teft didn't take command over the others when Kaladin couldn't? If Lopen didn't keep tossing him unbroken spears? If Moash didn't lead few others to fight by his side? True, Kaladin trained them. But they achieved something from this training thanks to their own determination. If they didn't help him, he would fail. The first time Szeth attacked? Ok, Adolin didn't manage to do much, but he tried so he helped at least by keeping Szeth's attention on himself for some time. Then there's Dalinar and his lastclap. If not for this, Kaladin would fail miserably anyway. And he didn't even defeat Szeth in the end. Szeth ran away not because he was scared of Kaladin personally, but because he was scared of what it could mean for the world. The four on one duel? Kaladin would never win this on his own. The victory was possible only because he and Adolin worked together. And because Renarin for some time held attention of one opponent and because Shallan sent Pattern to help. The last battle with Szeth? Kaladin wouldn't even have the chance to fight Szeth if not for Adolin, Dalinar, Roion and men of Bridge 4. If they didn't put up the fight as they did, Kaladin would come too late. Especially Adolin. He was the first to spot Szeth (and I swear it must've had something to do with that instinct of his) and engage him to prevent him from attacking Dalinar. He would do much better if not for the fact he was already tired and battered after fighting Eshonai. Storms, Kaladin wouldn't even achieve anything while protecting Elhokar if Moash didn't hesitate or try to keep Graves away! Kaladin always ended up saving the day, but never on his own. Somebody always helped him one way or another, otherwise he would fail. He's not as good as he seems. Average everyday reader wouldn't see this, but I'm sure that anybody who tries to look deeper than the surface would. The admiration mode... I can totally understand why it was the case among Bridge 4. They were through Damnation itself and he showed them that they can fight their way out of this. He lead them in this, he trained them. He survived the Highstorm. They have reasons to admire him. But at least some still see him as a man not a hero (Rock for sure, Sigzil, Teft an Lopen too, mostly). Or at least not only a hero, but a man as well. As for Renarin... I never perceived him as one who had fallen into admiration mode. True, he admired Kaladin but not that much. He wanted to be useful and to be a son his father wanted him to be. To be a soldier. We know that Adolin for a time served in a spearmen unit to train. I think Renarin wanted to do the same and thought Bridge 4 to be the safest option. Or maybe Glys convinced him somehow... As for effortlessly mastering surges... Yes, he didn't struggle with anything so much as Shallan with Soulcasting. But he trained his powers the same as Shallan trained Illumination. He had problems with gravity. He tried many times (even as early as WoK I think) but kept failing until he finally got a grasp of it after the first fight with Szeth. Then he put effort into mastering it. True, he did that in one night (maybe even not a whole one), but it didn't come to him at a snap of fingers. At I'm not completely sure if he already mastered it too. By now he can do what Szeth could and then some more. But we don't know if there isn't something more to his surges. I hope there is, because by now adhesion/pressure seems rather lame. I'm waiting for force pushes I mean, he still has two more oaths. If there's nothing more for him to learn then it's rather boring... But overall yeah, by now it seems he had it somewhat easier than Shallan (to an extent because he saw Szeth using those powers too...). On the matter of Kaladin taking spotlight in the end... True, he did. At least in the eyes of an average leader. Because I think that we all know that it's not so simple. I have already explained how Kaladin would do nothing if the others didn't put up a fight. Adolin did whatever he could, but he was already wounded and beaten down after Eshonai. And he still did well. Nobody can really deny that. In my opinion he did even more while fighting Szeth than Dalinar. Roion was a hero for a few seconds when he attacked Szeth. If he didn't all would be lost. Adolin's greatest achievement in the last battle was his duel with Eshonai. It goes beyond any doubt. I also believe that to a great extent the heroes of this battle were Drehy and Skar, bravely charging into battle by Adolin's side and saving him at the chasm. And also other members of Bridge 4, those who fought against Szeth. Some of them died, some were crippled, but they still fought. Kaladin had his epic battle in the air. But it would never be possible without Adolin, Dalinar, Roion and the others. All in all, I'm not trying to say that Kaladin is a perfect character. He's most certainly not. I understand why you feel that way about him. I see your reasons but as I explained above, I see it in a bit different light. That's why he's still my favourite character. Actually, I was annoyed when he screwed up by challenging Amaram, but I guess if he didn't then he would become too good and I'd be even more mad. Oh my... That was way longer than it was supposed to be... :ph34r: Ups...

I see your point. But if you didn't mention "average reader not 17th sharder" I would propably argue with you Most people read the book, come to the conclusions basing only on what is most obvious in the text or even opinions of other in-book characters. But some think more of it and come to different conclusions. Take my parents for example - all 3 of us read WoK (only I read WoR by now...). I had my views on the characters, some of them changed after reading WoR or discussing on this forum, but generally I still stick to my personal opinions. My dad read the book only for pleasure and as soon as he finished he went to read other books. He doesn't think about it at all. No interesting discussions with him. My mom was a bit more aware reader but whenever I try to talk to her, she doesn't try to look deeper at the characters motivations and personalities. We may discuss events but not characters. And she even chastises me for overthinking a book instead on focusing on real life - that's the reason I joined 17th Shard, here I can discuss whatever I want and nobody minds that Anyway, basing on my talk with my mom I can say that maxal is completely right. My mom sees Kaladin as a main character and a hero, no matter what. Kaladin is my favourite character, but I see his flaws and mistakes. She doesn't, unless it was pointed out in the text. She sees Adolin as a spoiled, rich kid. I see that he is a spoiled, rich kid, but a very nice and caring one. I see that he acts like he does because that's how he was raised, not because he thinks himself better due to haughtiness. My mom says that Adolin was stupid to argue with Kaladin at the Tower - he was trying to save him, after all. But she doesn't look at this from Adolin's perspective - he wanted to save his father, no matter what, the fact that a darkeye tried to order him around was actually secondary. It's sad, but that's how most people reads the books. Only the ones willing to ponder and think more about it all see the truth - the characters are not exactly what they seems. For most Adolin is just a spoiled prince, not very bright and easy to manipulate (*cough*Shallan*cough*), with no real purpose in the book. But he is much, much more than that. Okay, that was a bit too much of ramblings propably... As for what Feather said about the way the scene of muder was written... I agree. We are lead to think that Adolin made a mistake. It's suggsted to us that it's going to be problematic for him in the future. We know that Adolin did the right thing, it's the way he did it that hints at future conflicts, hence the gore. I guess many of us (me definitely included) get a feeling that this will be what ultimately leads him to breaking and becoming a Radiant (there was a thread about that). It may be true, then the way this scene is written foreshadows this. I may be wrong, then this scene is meant to confuse us and lead us to false conclusions only for us to be more surprised in the end. Anyway, were the scene written differently, we would propably think much less about its possible implications.

Yes we did. Shallan's Lightweaving is Illumination only named differently. So yeah, we have seen much of it. I'm interested in Progression myself. In Dalinar vision he saw that the Radiant made his wounded leg grow new skin, muscles etc. instead of repairing damaged ones. We know that Lift healed Gawx, but little is known how exactly.And she made plants grow - that seems rather simple. I wonder what Renarin's reaction would be if he accidentially grew some moss Also, does Progression heal Shardblade wounds? I think it does. So Renarin can struggle to figure out just how to do this and help Hobber and other members of Bridge 4 wounded by Szeth at the end of WoR. With Lift we have seen that bringing somebody back to life takes so much stormlight that it left her completely powerless. Is it only in Lift's case since she can metabolize food into stormlight? Or does such use of Progression simply drain energy from the user along with stormlight? Abrasion we have seen quite well with Lift, but only in rather non-combat situations. Adolin can make it look more kickass sliding around battlefield. I wonder also if Abrasion allows the user to run over water? That would be cool. But I think I'd like to see also Adolin trying to somehow learn to use this ability and being unable to walk properly constantly slipping on his feet Or dropping things :ph34r: Well, that's my opinion on her and I'm aware it's not very popular I'm not saying she's a bad character, only one that currently annoys me way too much, but I see potential to improve in her - and then maybe I'll actually like her. In WoK I was ok with her - not a character I particularly liked but not one I disliked either. Same at the beginning of WoR. But later? She became so annoying that I barely could stand her. I understand her character growth, how she needed to become who she is, but I can't help but see it like everything goes so smoothly for her, with barely any effort (it's written how she struggled to achieve this, but I just don't get the feeling of her struggling, everything seems to come to her just like that). She always succeeds with little to none complications. Kaladin struggled and I could feel it while reading. He failed from time to time - whether due to his inexperience, circumstances, simple mistake or his own stupidity (yes, I'm speaking of the boon failure now). Shallan didn't fail or didn't even come close to failing. In my eyes it almost borders on "protagonist succeeding for the mere sake of being protagonist". Almost, but not exactly, that's why I still think I can like her in the future. The problem with Shallan now is that she went from extreme to extreme - from unsure, scared girl in WoK to confident, always right, important woman in WoR. Where is the middle? I think I missed it somewhere... Right now I tend to see her as a character slowly walking in the direction of Mary-Sue. But then again, that's just my personal opinion.

Oh, thanks Twenty I'm going to read it now. As for buying Altered Perceptions... May be kind of hard in my country

True. But Kaladin felt that the wind guided him in fighting even before Syl became sentient. So even while the bond was beggining to form, he somehow instinctively felt it. He tried to pick up the Blade back then but felt nauseaous at the very thought of it. Just like Dalinar started to feel revolted by killing Parshendi in WoK. I guess that Kal felt it wasn't right for him to take the Blade. And later it was explained thanks to Syl. And he hates lighteyes (less so now than in WoK). He doesn't want to be one of them. Maybe that's why he didn't review his choice? Or at least a small part of the reason... As for skimming WoK... I'm currently reading Warbreaker so I trust you to find this evidence if you are going to try

I'm not exactly sure, but I think he once considered if it had been better if he took the Shards but in the end he still supported his decision... But I can't remember even when it was, so maybe I only think it was somewhere But anyway - I believe that his refusal of Shards was somehow caused by his forming bond to Syl. He instinctively knew that he shouldn't take them. And I 'm convinced that he believes he did the right thing refusing them since it happens again - he refuses the Shards that Adolin offers him.

Uhm... Can somebody post a link maybe? Call me stupid, but I can't find ithe chapters on my own and I'd really want to read it

And that's mostly what I said but explained in a more detailed way That's pretty much what I see happening. As if we didn't have enough problems with Amaram yet If that happens, I see Kal arguing with Dalinar rather harshly. He will agree that it was a good decision to protect Adolin, but he won't agree with letting Amaram not only stay free but also earn such a high position. Hopefully he's smarter now and won't try anything stupid himself I can even imagine Ialai demanding every single Shard in possesion of the Kholins and their immediate allies - therefore also Kaladin's Shardblade (Syl). And he won't agree to this. Dalinar will support him - spren are different than regular Blades. Then Ialai will use this as another argument against Kholins - they promised all Shards and yet they kept one! And in the light of the last paragraph of your post - it looks like Sadeas asked to be killed by Adolin Goat the boy to do something brash and watch him fall because of this. That's exactly what happened. Too bad old Torol won't be able to watch You make a valid point. It is very possible that you are right, I admit. But I just see it in a different way She may be frustrated by the way Sadeas took to achieve his goal, but I'm sure she has the same goal in mind - she will just be smarter about it. Regardless of her personal feelings toward Torol (though I do believe she cared for him) she will use his death as a weapon against Kholins.

I see your point but in my eyes Shallan doesn't seem to be simply strong willed so nobody can manipulate her. She's blatantly defiant, wanting her freedom so much that she doesn't consider that somebody may be right (Adolin wanted to protect her - she didn't even consider that he may be right, she saw him as trying to oppress her). I see her as wanting to do everything herself, not necessarily looking at what others could do to help her or even do better (as when she feared that Navani will take her project from her - she wanted to be completely in control of everything). I can't help but currently perceive Shallan as stuck-up and overconfident not strong-willed. I liked her way more in WoK By now I think Dalinar learned to listen to the council of the others (exactly because of Sadeas). Kaladin is known to openly speak his mind to Dalinar, and Dalinar is likely to take his words into consideration. Same for Adolin (at least before the truth about Sadeas' murder comes out). Especially in Adolin's case. It's not like everyone will take Dalinar's words without questioning them. Agreed. Totally agreed. Renarin's biggest chance to shine is to finally succed at what he screwed up in the past two books - saving his family.

Prefarably if it's black... Bonus points for being made of leather. That is a very good one It's not his fault that he accidentially discovered that talent of his what caused him to lose his job and not be able to find a new one in this business as nobody trusts him anymore... Therefore he had to look for a different ways of earning money to live, finally getting himself into the hands of forementioned mastermind, without really meaning to. [EDIT] Ok, I found the guy I compared Hoid to a few posts before. Stephen Colbert. But of course, Hoid would be much better at this

You are both right. And it can happen in Sadeas' case. It would just make sense to me if a highprince had an heir he had choosen (not necessarily a son). Of course, king may place his ally in the position instead, but that's another matter. What I'm trying to say is just that in natural course of action it's simply logical for somebody like a highprince to make sure he has somebody to inherit after him. But then again, we know nothing about Sadeas in this regard. And a wise king would appoint his ally in his place anyway (like they did to Yenev), but it's Elhokar, he can't do wise to save his life unless Dalinar forces him to And appointing someone else than Sadeas' choosen heir (if such person exists...) would in this situation only serve to help Ialai undermine the Kholins ("see? they planned it to their advantage! they didn't even have enough honour to kill him in an official duel, stabbing him in the back instead") in the eyes of others.