dantlee

24 minutes ago, Drag0nR3born said:

So what are everyone's thoughts on Taravangian?  I go back and forth between liking him and not liking him.  I do not like his overall plan or methods but I usually like the guy when I am reading him and Dalinar interacting or when he interacted with Jasnah and Shallan in previous books.

He's one of my favorite cosmere characters. One of the things I love most about Brandon's writing is that depending on time and circumstance, many of his novels' heroes would be villains in other books, worlds, or eras (and vice versa). Kelsier and Dalinar, to name but two examples, are both essentially mass murderers who happened to become good men/align with a good cause late in their lives.

Taravangian is pure, rational, logic taken to its most callous extreme. He's not evil: he simply seeks to protect those he can (which, on a tangentially related note, may literally be the fourth ideal of the Windrunners). He recognizes that Odium will destroy everything on Roshar, and beyond, if some kind of bargain isn't struck to preserve some small section of humanity. While I tend to be a pretty hopeful person and don't think I would make the same choices in his position, I can certainly understand why he's doing what he is. 

Furthermore, I find the ruthless Taravangian to be really funny: the "oh, kill those singing children" moment in his interlude chapter actually made me burst out laughing. 

While I was doing an OB re-read over the holidays, my interest was piqued by the first Interlude chapter: Puuli, the lighthouse keeper. This interlude seems to be the most disconnected in all of OB: the others are characters we've met before, or give interesting hints into previously unexplored locations, or foreshadow later events in the book (and perhaps that's all this one is, too). 

The main information we get in this interlude chapter is a mysterious prophecy from Puuli's grandfather:

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Had the time finally come, that his grandfather had warned of? The time of changes, when the men from the hidden island of the Origin came to reclaim Natanatan?
...

"They'll come with Light in their pockets," Grandfather had said. "They'll come to destroy, but you should watch for them anyway. Because they'll come from the Origin. The sailors lost on an infinite sea. You keep that fire high at night, Puuli. You burn it bright until the day they come. They'll arrive when the night is darkest."

 

So, having seen little to no prior speculation on Puuli, what are our thoughts on these mysterious sailors from the Origin? I think they could refer to:

1) The return of surgebinders to Roshar. "They'll come with Light in their pockets" and "they'll come to destroy" are pretty clear references to what we later find out: that the first surgebinders were humans, coming to Roshar from Ashyn by worldhopping (perhaps through the Origin, if it is a shardpool/perpendicularity as some have theorized), and that they caused immense destruction on both planets. 

2) The return of the Aimians. "Hidden island at the Origin" reeks of Akinah. Furthermore, we know thanks to Hoid (and WoB) that the residents of Natanatan have blue skin because they're actually Aimian-human hybrids. We already know Aimians are becoming more active throughout Roshar, and monitoring new surgebinders closely. It would make sense that they eventually plan to "reclaim Natanatan." The Light could refer to two things: Larkin, or Aimians regaining access to the surges (we know from the back covers that Aimians were once able to surgebind but lost the ability at some point).

3) The kingdom of Natanatan overlaps with where the shattered plains are currently located. Perhaps the prophecy could refer to the return of the fused (the Light being Voidlight), coming to reclaim their world?

4) Something completely unrelated to the above options that will be explored in the upcoming novella Wandersail. 

I'm sure there are possibilities I haven't thought of, but these were the main ones that came to mind. I know the obvious choice is option 1: that this interlude was simply meant to foreshadow the plot twist that human surgebinders were the original voidbringers, but I don't think that's the only significance to this quote and chapter. First, why would human surgebinders be "reclaiming" Natanatan when they were the ones who likely destroyed it? Furthermore, the interlude chapter immediately after this one is primarily there to foreshadow the translation of the dawnchant, and I don't think Brandon would waste two consecutive interlude chapters just to set up a reveal later in the book.

I lean towards the blue guys. There are too many connections between Aimians, the Origin, and Natanatan for me to think this is a total coincidence. But I fully admit we're still operating on very limited information, and I'm venturing into the area of wild speculation. 

None come to mind immediately, but I found it really funny (and slightly out-of-place) when Brandon used the word "straight-up" in one of Shallan's chapters. 

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In some ways, Jasnah seemed fiercely masculine. She studied whatever she pleased, and she talked tactics as easily as she talked poetry. She could be aggressive, even cold -- Shallan had seen her straight-up execute thieves who had tried to rob her. 

I don't think I've seen such casual American slang used in any of his other books, at least not in-world. 

12 hours ago, Andy92 said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8686

Heh. 

I was just going to post this WOB! I was very solidly in the Evi camp until I read this one. I know a RAFO doesn't mean much, but the way Brandon reacts to certain RAFOs is often illuminating, and I think this lends a lot more credence to the idea that Odium is talking about Adonalsium when he says "we killed you." As others have pointed out, Dalinar has at least some investiture from Honor, Odium, and Cultivation, which means it's at least possible that he may indeed be on the way to reforming Adonalsium and not just Honor's shard. 

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Leyspren said:

Yeah but, when I quoted that very WoB just five posts back, maybe you should just refer to it?

Um, sorry, I guess? I don't understand why you're upset about it - I'd already explained that my wifi was really crappy, and when I posted an hour ago I wasn't able to load previous pages of the thread. I also added another WoB that you hadn't quoted. 

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Leyspren said:

I'm just saying, I revived this thread literally by posting that WoB.

Yeah, I'm arguing your side, against Scavell. He asked which WoB I was referencing that had shut down the idea that there were exactly 9 desolations prior to this one, so I posted two that pretty definitively end that discussion. 

I can understand some of the criticisms of Shallan's character, and especially the multiple personalities direction that Brandon has taken her in OB, but I agree with others in this thread that the hate is overblown and often stems from personal politics, or a dislike of her romantic arcs. She's far from my favorite character, and I actually liked her a lot more before OB, because I don't think Brandon has done an especially good job portraying split personalities (in contrast, I think the USA show Mr. Robot has done a fantastic job of examining that particular issue). 

The point remains that Shallan has undergone an almost unbearable amount of trauma throughout her life, something that Kaladin often remarks on (who, I would add, is an equally if not more broken person, but gets far less hate because of his heroics and combat ability). As someone who had an extremely physically and emotionally abusive, alcoholic father growing up, I find Shallan extremely relatable. It took decades for me to heal, and only thanks to really fantastic mentors, friends, and lovers who were incredibly supportive of me throughout high school and college - something that Shallan has never had until very recently in her life. She is still very young and inexperienced in both life and love, and is bound to make decisions that readers may vehemently disagree with - and decisions she herself will likely come to regret as she grows as a person and Knight Radiant. 

I'm on incredibly crappy wifi right now so I was only able to do a quick search, but these two pretty definitively put an end to the idea that each unmade was created each time a herald broke. That theory depends fundamentally on the assumption that there were exactly 9 desolations prior to this one, and that each herald only broke once. 

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Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)
#2 Share

XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW]

Is each Herald only broken once for each Desolation, thus making there 9 Desolations, or are they broken multiple times?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are more than 9 Desolations.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)
#9 Share

 

CaptainRyan [PENDING REVIEW]

Prior to the death of Gavilar, had nine (9) Desolations occurred? If not, can you please share how many have happened?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No... but no.

 

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

That's because we assume that the current 9 Unmade were the only ones ever created. Previous Unmade could have been destroyed somehow and that Odium could only ever have 9 Unmade at a time.

You’re stretching pretty far for something we have a lot of evidence against. It was a nice theory, but post-OB WoB have pretty much dismissed the possibility. 

I know some people really like the “unmade were created each time a herald broke” theory, but it just doesn’t hold water. We have several woB, and a lot of textual evidence, confirming that there were more than 9 or 10 desolations before this one. Sorry to be the party pooper. 

I'm most curious about the Caretaker of Laughter, which Nazh has marked as "Avoid at all costs," and "Salumon the Third Tower."

We know that the Sea of Lost Lights, geographically, is bordered to the southeast by the Expanse of Vapors, which has been confirmed to be Scadrial. If you match up the map of Shadesmar with Nazh's map, it looks like Thaylenah (the Thaylen Sea in Shadesmar) is located above the Nexus of Imagination. The Caretaker of Laughter and Salumon the Third Tower therefore appear to be very close to the Expanse of Vapors/Scadrial. I wonder if the Caretaker of Laughter is dangerous specifically because of its proximity to the Scadrian border in Shadesmar? 

Alternatively, others have theorized for years that the Nexus of Imagination may be Braize, which could explain why an area in Shadesmar close to that region would be marked as "avoid at all costs." 

1 hour ago, Watchcry said:

So Coppermind officially labels "I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man" as the third Oath. 

They don't acknowledge the rest. Good call. 

 

As someone who edited the Coppermind for the first time today, I would advise you to not take that as established canon until we get official confirmation from Brandon. 

I'm not much of a crier - I've only cried twice in the past 7 years (that's not a "oh look at me how macho", it's just not how I emotionally respond to things). But I will say that SA has given me many "lump in the throat" moments, which is definitely the closest that any piece of literature, film, or television has made me come to crying.

In WoK: Kaladin's speech to Bridge Four in Chapter 53 (Dunny) when he's trying to treat the wounds of a fallen bridgeman was one of the most impactful things I've ever read, and was the moment that Kal became my favorite character in the series. 

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The members of Bridge Four were silent. Kaladin looked up from the confused, wounded man. 

"Kaladin," Rock said. "You know how the other bridge crews have treated us." 

"I don't care," Kaladin said.

"We don't have any money left," Drehy said. "Even pooling our income, we barely have enough for bandages for our own men."

"I don't care."

"If we care for the wounded of other bridges crews," Drehy said, "we'll have to feed them, tend them..."

"I will find a way." 

"I ---" Rock began.

"Storm you!" Kaladin said, standing and sweeping his hand over the plateau. The bodies of bridgemen lay scattered, ignored. "Look at that! Who cares for them? Not Sadeas. Not their fellow bridgemen. I doubt even the Heralds themselves spare a thought for these. I won't stand there and watch while men die behind me. We have to be better than that! We can't look away like the lighteyes, pretending we don't see. This man is one of us. Just like Dunny was. The lighteyes talk about honor. They spout empty claims about their nobility. Well, I've only known one man in my life who was a true man of honor. He was a surgeon who could help anyone, even those who hated him. Especially those who hated him. Well, we're going to show Gaz, and Sadeas, Hashal, and any other sodden fool who cares to watch, what he taught me. Now go to work and stop complaining!"

Bridge Four stared at him with wide, ashamed eyes, then burst into motion. 

In WoR, the final reveal that Shallan's father actually protected her from her murderous mother also hit me really hard. 

In OB, there were a lot of emotional moments, but I actually didn't feel a ton of impact in the last hundred pages - I think while Brandon did a good job of adding moments of levity via Lift and Nightblood, it also reduced the emotional impact of the more serious moments because of how frenetic the pacing was throughout the battle in Thaylen City.

For me, the most impactful moments by far were Rock's reunion with his family (ALL THE FEELS), Kaladin's paralysis as his friends were killing each other in Kholinar, and two of Dalinar's flashbacks after Evi's death (the first, where Renarin comforts him and he breaks down crying, and the second, where he apologizes to Adolin for being a bad father, were just absolutely heartbreaking). All four of those moments made me swallow hard. 

4 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

You're all looking at this way too hard

1) We have no evidence that Odium splintered Honor.  It could very well be that Honor splintered and sacrificed himself.  By doing so, he could control where the pieces of him ended up, allowing for the current final showdown with Odium.  Odium did kill Tanavast, but not before Tanavast splintered himself as he saw fit (most likely with Cultivation's guidance).  Odium may be none the wiser to this aspect of Honor's death, leading to his surprise.

2) At the time of Dalinars ascension, Odium is speaking to his Fused.  "We" could simply be an inclusive term he used because those he makes fight for him are listening. Odium went so far as to deny one of his Lieutenants a body to save Venli just to convince parshman that they should follow Him.  Marketing is important to Him.  He used We because others who helped him kill Honor are listening.

3) Syl knows exactly what Dalinar is doing when he opens up the perpendicularity.  She even has a name for it.  So, it's been done before. Likely by Honor.  He's not tapping into some new God power.  He's using the power Honor left for him.

4) Unity is not a new Shard.  "I am Unity" is a Bondsmith Ideal.  Really surprised no one has brought that possibility up.  It could also be an aspect of Honor; a named Splinter, if you will.  It could also be how Dalinar chose to answer Venli when she asked who he was.

 

I find it hard to believe that B.S. reached very far out into the Cosmere for this scene. Dalinar has tapped into a power that Tanavast set up for him. Syl's name for it makes this clear.  Odium is a trickster/marketer of hate and uses the inclusive We because his followers are listening. 

"We killed you" is not some hint or foreshadowing.  It's just Odium being surprised while surrounded by his followers.

"I am Unity" is, IMO, Dalinar's interpretation of t

1) Well, Honor definitely did leave splinters around before his death, as did Odium (we have WoB that Honorspren and the Unmade are splinters of Honor and Odium, respectively). But I think it's a bit disingenuous to say we have no evidence that Odium splintered Honor. Tanavast literally told Dalinar that Odium killed him. Odium himself says in OB that he can't leave around the Splinters of Honor like he once thought. And the way that the Stormfather speaks about his confrontation with Odium strongly implies he has seen the effects of Odium splintering a shard before: "I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation."

I mostly agree on the rest of your points, though - I find it hard to believe that Unity is actually a new shard, and think it's much likelier that it is part of a bondsmith ideal. As for the "We," I also tend to agree with the idea that "We killed you" refers to "[me and Dalinar] killed [Evi]." 

Well, I don't think the prose in SA is particularly difficult for an adolescent or kid to read, but I've found that a lot of the younger readers of SA have a hard time understanding some of the character development or emotional impact of certain events, largely due to a lack of life experience. For example, I had a rather frustrating back and forth with a younger reader earlier this year who despised the heralds because of their betrayal of Honor and the oathpact, and he just could not comprehend what sustained torture can do to a person's mental and emotional state, despite repeated attempts at explanation from myself and other 17th sharders. 

I don't think so, the Stormstriders seem to be something different. Dalinar seems multiple in the storm in one of his OB flashbacks, so it can't just be one spren. 

So, after much speculation, it turns out that Tezim is indeed Ishar, Herald of the Bondsmiths. As discussed in the two threads below (where I've compiled most of the textual references to Ishar and Tezim), it seems fairly clear that the Herald is quite mad. The Stormfather seems to confirm this in OB: 

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The Windrunners were named only after Ishar founded the orders.

"Ishi'Elin," Dalinar said. "Herald of Luck."

Or of mysteries, the Stormfather said, or or priests. Or of a dozen other things, as men dubbed him. He is now as mad as the rest. More, perhaps. 

... "Do you know where they are?" 

Only one, he said with a rumble. I... have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man. 

... "Tezim, the god=priest of Tukar? Is it him? Ishi, Herald of Luck, is the man who has been waging war against Emul?" 

Yes. 

"For what purpose?"

He is insane. Do not look for meaning in his actions. 

We know from Edgedancer that Nale received faulty information (that massacring surgebinders would prevent another desolation) from Ishar, yet seems to trust him deeply even by the end of Oathbringer, long after he knew Ishar was wrong. Furthermore, he oddly claims that Ishar is the only herald who survived their torture in damnation with his mind intact: 

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"I used to be able to feel, Szeth-son-Neturo. I used to have compassion. I can remember those days, before..." 

"The torture?" Szeth asked. 

He nodded. "Centuries spent on Braize - the place you call Damnation - stole my ability to feel. We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact." 

And interestingly, Ash's first instinct upon seeing Taln's fleeting sanity is to go to Ishar for help: 

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Talenel'Elin had broken like the rest of them. 

Ishar, she thought. Ishar will know what to do. 

So, despite the fact that Ishar seems to be gallivanting about as a capricious, self-absorbed warlord god in his spare time, has blatantly lied to Nale multiple times, and came up with the idea of condemning Taln to 4 millennia of solitary torture in the first place, the heralds still trust him deeply. The question is, why? I see a few options.

1) Nale and Ash are also insane, and therefore unable to see Ishar for the man he has become, so they trust him as the Bondsmith Herald (and I think it's fair to speculate that came with some kind of leadership position) and mastermind they knew and fought alongside for thousands of years.

2) Ishar is sane, but has betrayed Honor and allied with Odium, perhaps because he has come to believe that he was always on the wrong side of the fight. With the knowledge that surgebinding destroyed the humans' world before their mass relocation to Roshar, I think this line from Words of Radiance makes much more sense: 
 

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"But as for Ishi'elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph 

 

 

 

It seems Ishar was always wary of granting surgebinding to men, knowing full well how poorly that had worked out before. After seeing the death of Honor, the recreance, and finally breaking at Aharietiam, he may have decided that men were not worthy - or too dangerous - to live on Roshar. He is thus working to kill or turn the other heralds - for example, I believe the Odium-knife that killed Jezrien may have been created with help or knowledge from Ishar (I find it highly suspicious that Odium was never able to permanently kill the Heralds in all the thousands of years and many desolations he endured, and now suddenly discovered that ability). Nale was convinced to severely hobble the forces of Honor on Ishar's advice, and he seems to have decided to support the Parsh upon visiting Ishar between Edgedancer and OB. 

3) Ishar is insane, but has moments of lucidity when speaking to the other heralds, and has not betrayed Honor. He may genuinely have believed that killing surgebinders would prevent a desolation, but was simply incorrect - as we've heard so many times, this desolation is distinctly different from all the others that came before.

I'm sure there are tons of other possibilities I haven't thought of, but I buy heavily into the idea that Ishar has turned to Odium's side. I do think by the end of the first half of SA Ishar will be a prominent antagonist, and we'll see just how influential he's been behind the scenes.

Thoughts? 

I'm having a tough time deciding between Eshonai, Graves, Elhokar, and Jezrien. I'd suspected Elhokar might die in the attempt to retake Kholinar since we the preview chapter announcing his romp with Kaladin, so although it hit me like a gut punch (especially just as he was about to become a radiant), it didn't necessarily shock me. Eshonai took me by surprise if only because I assumed she'd be alive for her flashback book, but Brandon did say one of the flashback books could be from a dead character. Jezrien was mind-boggling (I thought Moash was going for the Nightwatcher/Cultivation), but it also lacked emotional weight because we've only had a few very limited interactions with him throughout the series.

Honestly, and I'm not entirely sure why, but Graves might have been the craziest one for me. It just felt so shockingly abrupt and out of nowhere, when he had seemed to be a fairly important figure within the Diagram. 

Which one surprised you the most, and which one hit you the hardest? 

I think it's pretty clear that Hoid knows at least some of the Heralds personally, given his response to Shallan asking whether he was one himself (replying that they were but babes compared to him), his greeting to Taln, and Ash knowing his LoP name. 

I'm really hoping Eshonai is actually dead, given that Brandon said he was going to do less of the revival thing. I think the way the flashbacks could work is if it's a Venli-centric book, but she's featured in most of Eshonai's flashbacks. I imagine Brandon has some very cool ideas for how to meld the two sister's flashbacks so they eventually combine into one narrative by the end. 

Pretty much every Pattern, Lopen, and Nightblood comment made me lose my stormdroppings. There were a ton of really surprising moments of humor during the battle of Thaylen City too. Some of my faves:

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"Adolin climbed to his feet, and came face-to-face with an illusion of himself wearing a Kholin uniform. The illusory Adolin glowed with Stormlight and floated a few inches off the ground. She'd made him a Windrunner. I... I can't take that." 

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You should draw me, Szeth! I would love to see the lake. Vasher says there are magic fish here. Isn't that interesting?

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"Move, Lopen."

"Ah, you have to ask the right way. I'm not one-armed anymore! I can't be shoved around. Say, do you know how to get two armed Herdazians to do what you want?"

 

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Can't you just find evil, then destroy it?

"And what is evil, sword-nimi?"

I'm sure you can spot it. You seem smart. If increasingly kind of boring. 

 

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*Adolin running into Maya's corpse in Shadesmar* 

"That is your sword," Pattern said in a perky voice. He had no mouth that Adolin could see. "Hmmmm. She is quite dead. I don't think you can summon her here." 

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Vivenna: "Um... you're supposed to watch out for Cryptics."
Pattern hummed happily. "Yes. We are very famous." 

There are so, so many more. I loved every one of Lift's interactions with Dalinar and Szeth, too. 

With the release of OB, we now have official confirmation that Ishar is Tezim. Props to all those who figured it out early - I thought it was a red herring, personally. 

I am so impressed by whoever came up with the “Shin are of Odium” theory. Spot. On. 

Also, I was really not expecting both Eshonai and Graves to be such big red herrings, but I love the surprises so far. 

I LOST MY rust AT LIFT SHOWING UP IN THE VISION 

Still only in the first few chapters of part 2, but man did I get emotional when Hobber healed and Rock's family arrived. Literally 5 minutes of constant chills. UGH MY HEART