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Well sure, but if you look at the things he's RAFO'd before vs given more straight answers, you can (try and likely fail to) extrapolate intents and motivations. It help if you have several extra layers of Tinfoil hat on, helps focus those secret-whispering voices

My knowledge is limited to that article and wikipedia, but it sounds like they are using the term as a fairly blanket "anything that's not vertical", they break down several different paths but it's all gibberish to me (Im more of a physics guy) So....sDNA editing bacteria on Ashyn?

SIDE Topic: You may be interested in an article I cam across recently, turns out we're discovering this is not the case nearly as much as we previously thought. Turns out bacteria and virus are facilitating "horizontal gene transfer" which goes a long way to explaining the more complex systems. They're now thinking something like 8% of our genome arrived that way rather than pure Darwinian mutation, including some core bits (turns out the membrane between placenta and the fetus is actually re-purposed code for a virus's protective envelope. https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/637780618/understanding-horizontal-gene-transfer-in-the-tangled-tree

Haha, Agreed. Though I guess in this instance Id generally expect it to be more of a "Will Not Appear" kind of like the the God Beyond; so you could say that an RAFO confirms it would appear and/or become relevant.

Reckoners. From a pure language standpoint, one of the defining traits of the Young Adult sub-genre is the use of simpler language (on the general logic that younger readers will still be developing their vocabulary). So by that logic Id start with his YA stuff, which unfortunately does not include any Cosmere as far as I know. However, the Reckoners trilogy is one of the more enjoyable things Ive read recently (Superheroes destroy society!). Unless you just generally superpowers or post-apocalyptic settings, it's not going to be too simplistic despite being Young Adult.

To your mind, would that preclude there being more than one Archangel/Spenta out there fiddling with things?

Agreed. Well that and "Dont Trust Anyone, Not even [Hoid]...Especially not [Hoid]" Agreed. Future Sight is associated with several shards, Preservation for one. I think Hoid's warning was a bit of both, definitely a general statement (layered meanings too) but not cosmere-wide or anything (which Shallan wouldnt have known about anyway). There's definitely a stigma against it on Roshar, though I fully expect Cultivation to be at least as good at it as Odium, likely much better. There's also that super-weird Lighthouse keeper in shadesmar...

Fair point, in the case of Harmony specifically; represents everything that made the planet so should be able to unmake it. Thought it would likely push whatever internal balance he has over the edge, unless maybe shoving it into the Cognitive Realm is "Preserving" Scadrial enough to be a balance to Ruin's side finally getting to wipe the place from actual existence (ie the Physical Realm). I tend to thing that trying to get it back might be much more tricky.

You know, I think that's an interesting interpretation. Im on the other side of the coin: I consider myself a believer, but I read that in the opposite way, that Hoid didnt believe in any actual Capital-G god. It sounded like that common, somewhat tropey statement that there is no God or Devil, just lots of good and bad people out there.

Matter, Energy, and Investiture are all three sides of a really wonky coin. So I have to think that increasing the amount of matter being transported would proportionally increase the amount of Investiture required to make the transition. I think that tracks with what we've seen of investiture teleportation with the Oathgates, though that's a different kind of thing. Separately, there is some discussion about whether a Planet as a whole in Invested more than just the sum of its parts. Came up in the conversation about whether you could cut a planet in half with a celestial-sized shardblade. I contend that inhabited planets that are inhabited enough to possess a Cognitive Realm region/reflection are going to become more ambiently invested than their physical ingrediants alone, and so be harder to affect. Think of it this way, if you are going to shove the scadrial whole into the another planet's Cognative Space, you are both moving an entire inhabited and heavily Invested Planet into the Cognitive Realm, and also Destroying Scadrial's own, existing Cognitive Realm space.

I dont know, the Parshendi had their own future-seer's in their Nightform. I think the key here is that on Roshar future sight is associated with the forces of Odium, which we're learning does and has included both races. The general Impression I got was that Truthwatching is more or less what you'd expect and basically makes you a classic psychic (probably hard to deceive, Just Knows Things), only that it's typically restricted to happenings in the Present rather than the actual Visions of the Future that Renarin was getting.

That disclaimer needs a disclaimer, I cant just be laughing this loud at work, not before 9am...

If it were a plurality reference, shouldnt it be "the Siblings"? I think that's mostly just because we know there are only ever three Bondsmiths, so the idea of the Sibling being a collection of creatures all but negates their ability to be the final Bondsmith Godspren. Unless, I suppose, the reason for there being an expressed limit is that it's only a good idea to ever bond one of the Sibling Collective at a time. We havent seen anything like a hivemind Swarm-spren, but Id be interested.

Oh my yes, this would be ridiculous both in the physical fallout or the potential conflict with Harmony. So for the sake of Argument lets say this being is indented to be Discord's Champion out to cause undirected chaos, so that's not as much an issue. Even assuming he's still more or less the Sazed Harmony we know and Love, he might leave you alone the same way he seems to disagree with Marsh but leave him alone. I thought that too, and it's still a concern, but according to hero of ages (per the Coppermind Wiki at least, cant confirm right now) there are 2-3 hundred bind points on the human body, that's enough for me to handwave the limit even if some points are restricted to certain traits. There's also the implication that trellium godmetals let you steal multiple allowmantic or feruchemcial traits (was that on a single spike or still one ability per spike?). Either way I think it can technically be done with spikes alone and no Unkeyed/Unsealed metalminds. Though that's like 20% of all the Bind points right there. I like the divine breath to have Heightenings that are not tied to your active Awakening supply, but the real big ability Id be after is the Returned's ability to so consciously dictate and manipulate their Physical Form, whcih I think would do a lot to help mitigate the physical fallout of too much hemaurgy. That kind of assumes the ability would persist even if it's not actually achoring you to the body, so without that it's probably not worth the upkeep. Ah, nice, didnt know that one. He say's its "emotionally and mentally exhausting to be an Elantrian" which makes it the hardest form of Immortality out there. As always on this topic, I think this could be solved with another Spike! In this case a big old dose of Zinc and copper spikes for mental and emotional fortitude should do the trick. I dont think that would be an issue, that WOB is about how the presence of Spikes would make you unpalatable to most Spren to form a natural bond initially (unless they are less discriminating like Voidspren). If you are instead stealing a pre-exisitng Bond from a disposable Radiant, and so long as you maintain the Ideals, the Spren will be safe (if not happy) though they would still be able to voluntarily end the Bond at any time. But enough Connection manipulation should solve that, MAKE them love you as much as their original Radiant. I dont know about the A/F Steel, in terms of physical mobility powers I think I prefer the Windrunner Surges, though bullet-time is fun (I think Id have more fun with speed bubbles, personally). I forgot about Forgery entirely! Which is weird because it's the only magic system I consider more versatile than Hemalurgy. Definitely need to add that to the List, though maybe only after I use all the other crazy powers to steal the Moon Scepter and maaaybe have a chance to use these things off-world.

See below for a worthwhile WOB on this topic. It doesnt kill it, but the part that says it's not a one-to-one is worth noting. I used to thing each Unmade would reflect a radiant order and were simply missing one (my guess was Bondsmith) but that doesnt seem to hold the more we find out about them.

More of mine die that way than survive the research and see the light of day. Worst was when I spent a long time on reddit trying to map each of the Shardic Intents to binary numbers correlating to positions on the Allomantic chart, only to be shown a WOB that confirmed that not all shards have specific numbers, and some numbers are system-relevant rather than shard-relevant. The chart part still works pretty well, but that one WOB entirely killed off all the math-theory I was chasing.

Assume you are a worldhopper with a ready supply of some useful Godmetal, and you know ALL the secrets of Metallurgy (Unkeyed Coppermind, tutored by Ati's own ghost, whatever). Now also assume you dont think (or dont care) that too much hemaurgy on one person can potentially cause bad, unintended side effects. You just want to use Spikes to get ALL the power. What would your shopping/hit list look like? Mine so far: -General physical and mental enhancement -All Mistborn -All Feruchemy -a Divine Breathe (to anchor the Heightenings and grant some control over my Physical form, Id still buy an awakening supply. Still need to feed it weekly if granted via hemalurgy and not the natural Cognitive Shadow method?) -The Royal Locks (for infinite Color, assume purchase of normal Breaths) -Elantrian-ness (maybe, I dont need to be able to use the Dor Offworld, but Id want to be able to travel unrestricted) -a Nahel Bond (not sure the preferred Order yet, need to see the options) -A Larkin's ability to Eat Investiture -Lift's Stormlight Metabolism, assuming wouldnt block other Investiture sources like the Larking ability or metallic arts, etc -Mr.T's Boon/Curse, which I think could be well balanced and/or mitigated with Feruchemy, specifically Zinc, Copper, and Electrum) -The Rhythms Thoughts? Other options?

I have a feeling that Wax was not the only Pathist with a spike whispering in their ear. And while it sounds like he doesnt actually approve of Marsh's activities, he's willing to allow it, so there might be hemalurgy there. In the more abstract, Hemalurgy is more or less just spiritual Surgery, and since (per WOB) the initial target's death is not actually required, just the most typical outcome. But I think you could probably say that about almost any surgery pre-penecilin. In theory the underlying mechanisms of it might be something you could use benevolently if you were knowledgeable and careful enough, (ie. the difference between brain surgery and stabbing somebody in the face ). Separately, and without much actual evidence, I suspect that the secret of Exisors is going to be proven to be a Hemaurgical effect of some kind.

I think my hangup is @Weltall's assertion that he wanted to become Odium, specifically, and actually consciously chose to become "God’s own divine hatred" only to later backslide on his understanding of if (or whatever is underlying his self-deception). But I guess he could have have that misunderstanding even as a Mortal and simply though that becoming God's Wrath would be awesome. It fits, or at least it doesnt NOT fit, but I still read Frost's statement as being that they enabled him to become this powerful being knowing it might polarize him (and the rest), but not that they necessarily could anticipate the forms of the Intents or thought he'd be a good God of Wrath.

Maybe Im just parsing the statement differently but I dont see how that implies any actual Choice (or even necessarily understanding) of the specific Intent he was going to receive, just that he wanted to become a hexadiety and that achieving such turned him into the monstrous force Frost thinks he's become. Granted Im of the opinion that Rayse currently doesnt truly understand his own Shard, in that it's blinded him to the wider context which is why he thinks that equating Passion with Hatred doesnt leave anything out; I figure this is supported by the WOB that Hatred was his Intent's original name. Im not able to easily reconcile how he could have had the kind of Informed Consent you describe and still be off-base in his OB appearance. While we're looking at that Letter, we're all agreed that Frost's last sentence is incorrect, right? Rayse is still very much a individual, thinking being, one that per WOB has enough wherewithal to avoid tainting himself with other Shard's power when he kills them.

I think that assumes Rayse wanted to become Odium, specifically, rather than simply gain the power of a Shard. That seems to be what's implied in This WoB, that he just wants to be the most Powerful. I read Frost's statement to be more along the lines of Rayse wanted Power and they enabled him to get it, which led to him being warped (or at least distilled) by the Shard's Intent into becoming the fun-loving guy he is today.

Sorry about that, I entirely forgot the Renarin Aspect of your argument. Allergies and fever can do wonders for oddball theory-craft, but it's apparently a double-edged sword. Ill stop now. On Venli, I can accept that, though I still find myself wondering if her ability to manipulate Connection (or one of the Willshaper surges) somehow helped facilitate her dual status.

The only datapoint I can think of even approaching this is that we know Hoid was offered one (whatever "Offered" means in the context of the Shattering Events) that we have not been shown as of 2015. That rules out Endowment which per WOB is also the one that would have most tempted Hoid. Which by extension rules out the possibility that accepting would have dictated the nature of his own Intent (though doesnt entirely rule it out for those that actually ascended)

Taking a step back then, would it fit that Renarin was the first on-screen Voidbinder, on the logic that (as per the glyph symmetry) it requires both halves, a normal surge and the power of one of the Forms? Also, if the Forms of Power fall into Fabrial Magic because "spren is bound into a gem(heart) and produces an effect", what do you think is going on with Venli, Timbre, and their prisoner Voidspren. Might that lead to Voidbinding (given that Venli's Order was the first Brandon wrote)? And in a more general sense what do you see as the defining trait of each? It sounds like housing a Spren in a Gem bumps it to Fabrial territory. Id have pointed to the Nahel Bond as the defining trait of Surgebinding but the Honorblades kind of spoil that. Im generally thinking that that Voidbinding will be more distinct than just Odium corrupting and/or mimicking Surgebinding 1-for-1, but the diagram does point that way at least a little. PS. Any Creative Types feel up to making a Dr Seuss style children's book titled "A Spren in a Gem"? I will totally back that kickstarter!

@Subvisual Haze I have to hand it to you that does seem to line up too well to dismiss. @Calderis, I agree with your locigc that Fused arent Voidbinding, how do you feel about the idea that the Regal's Forms of Power are granting Voidbinding? I could personally see that being it, though the timing of that post-WoR WoB doesnt line up; I could also see that being half of it, and it takes a Renarin with his one normal and one inverted Surge to make true Voidbinding. That would more accurately reflect the Voidbinding Chart glyphs, if nothing else. It also gives us somewhere to start (ie the Songs) for what the Voidbinding surges might look like, and would indicate we have 4-5 more Forms of Power to see.