Savanorn

So new style fabrials make use of the gem, that is spren, and old style fabrials make use of the metal, that is, stormlight? That's cool.

Odium = Mark Hamil. 100% confirmed.

I'd assume that being from Roshar it fits in with the ideals and forms. Shardplate is armour at it's highest form.

Well, I suppose the big thing is... I didn't think Jasnah was dead. I didn't think spren could die, so the fact that Kaladin had beat us around the head so much with his "I PROTECT" had me thinking she'd come back. I only thought Szeth was actually dead, and well...he was. Even if not for long. I thought the same with Kaladin, it was actually a little out of nowhere that Radiants had such a naturally high healing factor in general. I'm not sure if it is better or worse this way. On one hand, I feel like that is a little bit too much like Dalinar's story then, which is about learning to set aside his personal skill as a warlord/combatant and lead/unite the people. On the other, I think it'd be a relatively new arc for a young male hero. Except like, Jaime Lannister and Rand al'Thor.

As some manacles? I don't see why not.

Do you mean Szeth-dead, Jasnah-dead or Syl-dead? (or all three?)

Much like the other posters, I was never convinced she was dead. Especially when her 'corpse' disappears. As for how it will effect the story? I don't know, but if you haven't read the Jasnah Book 3 reading I'd highly recommend you do. I actually think Jasnah's (and Ivory) chapters might end up being some of the better ones. At the very least they look to bring a look of interesting stuff.

Well, the Shin likely have Chana's Honourblade. If Liss were Chana, however, it wouldn't be hard for her to get a Shardblade in the course of four thousand years. Aside from that, assuming the Heralds talk as Shallash, Nale and Wimp seem to it'd be odd for Liss to not know that Szeth had Jezrien's Honourblade because those Heralds do. I don't think it's impossible, especially as Liss is notably slippery, but I do think it's a little unlikely.

I didn't say they did, but the fact that Radiants have visions is now established. People in Alethkar know it, I doubt they understand the particular peculiarities of it all. Further, Dalinar's actions had the stink of the Hierocracy before enough of the Highprinces came around. Even once we know they are true and there is actual evidence in Alethi research society, the revelation was enough to damage Dalinar's standing. To say they were sanctified is a very recent phenomenon. In terms of what the common man, or even the Alethi brightlord, knows they know that Dalinar sees things, they're told the Almighty sends them, if one of his sons is also a prophet is that suspect, is it possibly disquieting? Yeah. But for all they know, all the Radiants had them, the Radiants which just saved the Alethi army that fulfilled the Vengeance Pact. The city they now occupy was the very same citadel of the Radiants. Were I an Alethi, I'd be thinking that maybe the Radiants weren't all that bad. As I said, this is the return of powers that are mystical and unknown. It's a time of change and I think religious/social change will probably be a part of that I mean, it already is.. At the least, it should be easier for Renarin than pre-Urithiru Alethi society would be. Maybe, maybe not. I'm providing a counterpoint. The villanisation of the Radiants was pretty deeply ingrained as well. I'm almost 100% sure this is wrong. Bridge Four liked and respected Kaladin for the miraculous man he was, as a Radiant they almost worship him. He's not strictly set apart, he's set at a higher level. He also received flak for following the Codes. The point is that the two go hand in hand, as Dalinar makes the Codes and Radiants more acceptable because of his persona, achievements and politics they become more broadly acceptable to Alethi society. B As of WoR, Radiants have saved the Alethi army and thus fulfilled the Vengeance Pact and they've killed the Assassin in White. I agree with this, Shallan blazed onto the Alethi scene using knowledge, politics and her artistics achievements to cement a strong position...she has done nothing but do good for the name of Radiants. This is largely the part I disagree with. Renarin, I think, will find himself in the role of Radiant. He wasn't a soldier or an ardent, he was smart but being a scholar is not for him, but a Truthwatcher could well be the best thing for him at all. I anticipate that with the necessity of Radiants attitudes will change. To put it another way, Renarin has always been a disappointment and seen as relatively useless in Alethi society...now he's one of just four Radiants in the whole world. He's special. Also depending on how well he masters his Progression surge, that could do a lot to make him accepted anywhere.

I'm pretty sure someone else recovers Shallan's sketchbook, isn't there an annotation on it saying something to the effect of 'you don't know how much trouble I went through to get this back'

Does he? As of the end of WoR, I thought he realised he was a bad king. Although I could be less than accurate.

Well, that depends. This is a time of huge upheaval, and added to that two of the other Radiants already have visions and Dalinar's are well-known publicly. Before WoR I'd agreed with you for so many reasons, one of them that I think Renarin was unaware even of the existence of other Nahel Spren so must have thought he really was crazy or Voidish. Now though...Renarin knows what he is and he has a place to fall into. I'm not saying it won't be hard, but it should be easier.

At a complete guess? Maybe Alethela was founded by Shallash who is creative/honest...or Paliah who is the Herald who founded the Truthwaters. But then again, it's also the place where Dalinar is from (who receives visions of the past that knock aside centuries of misinformation about the Almighty and Knights Radiant) and it looks to be the place where the Way of Kings and path of honour will be reborn in modern Roshar.

Adolin can't die, I need him for my Kadodin shipping.

Shankin' Princes And Shacking With Heralds: An Erudite Retrospective. Of.

Well, metal is hard to chip or break, but it's not impossible. I'd guess with a good hammer or saw you could disfigure Shallash adequately. "Invest more in contemporary art" "Drink three to four jugs of grapefruit juice a day" "Adopt house colours of orange and dark caramel"

Fire, fire and MOAR FIRE. There is no situation in which the ability to turn things into fire is not heroically useful. Lost in the snow, dying of hypothermia? Fire. Jungle expedition goes bad? Fire. Falling into volcano? Fire. Ex starts seeing other girls? Fire. But seriously, Metal/oil/fire seems a good mix to me.

I'm already aware of that (it was raised in the darkness thread, and the fighting skills if you need confirmation) Of 'some order' referred to his progression rather than specific order. By 'years' I really just meant 'earlier', I admit to hyperbole in the matter. The point was merely to demonstrate than playing the 'what if' game is a pretty blank slate argument, there's not much in the way of limits you put on yourself in terms of what could have happened 'if x'

Unless.... Don't get me wrong, the chain of events could go any way, but I don't think it's so straightforward and things could go better.

Not quite, in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance we see Windrunners and Stonewards break their oaths, so there's no much room for doubt that they broke their oaths, only the other eight orders.

Generally, I think men pursuing feminine arts is considered shameful unless you're an ardent.

Well, to be fair, Amaram could have just killed Kaladin but he decided to leave him alive. Not that that is good, but, you know.

I'm taking the discussion there. Thanks Andrew.

The one with chull shells and claws? I'm in.