Kasimir

You did, but supposing we are both Village, the Elims don't know if you gave it to me or to Devo (given both of us were mentioned as possible recipients) or if there's some other under the table communication. Imagination is an Elim's worst enemy and it always helps to keep them guessing.

Yeah, thanks Though might've been better to have avoided saying that out loud since now they'll just avoid hitting Devo and wasting a kill on her... It's an emoji I keep forgetting doesn't show on the Shard.

Ash??? Tbh not really feeling this one. JNV is another option but not really feeling them either.

If we can keep up the momentum. But yeah, at least we have the advantage for now. I'll clarify publicly then: Araris was roleblocked (sorry) and Alv was redirected to himself.

Gotta be better than LG93...that one was a speedrun ._.

If the Spiked have Shade protection, then they'd just be insane unless the Shade Expert put in the kill. But my odds of wrecking them have increased marginally with the loss of their Expert protect. Anyway I'll only say my protect didn't trigger. I know who the redirect and the roleblock targeted but am going to keep quiet for the moment. Still kinda not feeling the E!Steel, tbh. But could get on the E!JNV train. Edited to add: Oh, and thanks so much @TheAlpha929 :+1:

@DeTess, presume you got hit after all?

Oh ok I see the confusion now. Ok, @Illwei - this is not a bad way to think but it's also wrong. While roleblocked kills can cause Broken Survivors, they also cannot trigger Wrath. Wrath requires an actual completed kill. The only two ways to trigger Wrath are: you successfully finish a kill, or you triggered a SE protect. That's it. @Elandera. Basically roleblocks are weird this game because they still do not count as completed kills, but complete enough to cause Broken Survivors.

I s2g I've explained this goddamned rule repeatedly. Because Sart died to a goddamned Wrath attack. A Pallid Mask cannot trigger a Wrath attack. A failed attack, i.e. one blocked by a Pallid Mask cannot trigger a goddamned Wrath attack. I just. We know there is a Wrath attack because SOMEONE IS DEAD AND THE SHADE COUNT IS STILL 5%. Like seriously just check the write-up counter for one second. It's been 5% nonstop. This cannot be achieved in any other way. THIS IS CATEGORICALLY IMPOSSIBLE IF SOMEONE WAS KILLED BY ANY OTHER MEANS THAN SHADES. AND THAT MEANS Sart died by Shades. And the only way that gets triggered with a failed attack is: Sart attacked someone who was protected by some goddamned Shades, i.e. E!Shade Expert. Like, I hate the idea of an E!Shade Expert as much as you do because it makes me jin useless against one but there's pretty much no way to defend against the notion the Elims have one at this juncture. @Elandera Look IDK what you can confirm about this but if there's anything you can help explain please do because Christ I'm done and I get how you feel now. Edited to add: @Illwei IDK if this helps but seriously, if this does: like the whole problem about Wrath goes away if there was a second corpse. No one would have wondered that hard if Archer had dropped dead - straightforward, case-closed "Oh ok Sart must've killed Archer and triggered Wrath." The entire reason this is an issue is Wrath is triggered (the % chance) only if you kill successfully. If the target isn't dead, it doesn't trigger. That's why a solo corpse cannot trigger Wrath because there is no successful victim.

I have claimed Shade Expert in the Day thread and that I used a Lurch on a player I'm refusing to name other than acknowledging that it was neither me nor Devo last Night. Because there's a limit of one action per Turn, having Lurched, I cannot have put in any other action. We can suppose that I'm lying about the Lurch, but if we take it as true at face value, I can't have put in another action. Yes, but Archer chose to CW on DeTess rather than Mat, and the VitC vote on Mat came from me. Unless you believe that both Mat and DeTess are simultaneously Evil, the triangle doesn't fully make sense because Mat self-pressed on Archer as well and wasn't willing to switch. We certainly can't prove DeTess isn't a SE, but by that same token, you look objectively worse than DeTess, having joined Alpha in equally unexplained last minute votes on DeTess, which take Archer out of danger. And we also cannot prove you aren't an SE. Pallid Masks are passive. The question here is not whether TJ had a Pallid Mask at all but whether he had an action that would preclude him from having sent in a Shade Expert protect, or from having put in the kill. I fail to see where you're coming from. Edited to add: Worth highlighting as well that a world in which the E!SE is DeTess, while not impossible, means there are four Silver Bones and two Pallid Masks in this game, on top of one or two other points of distro weirdness depending on what you think TJ's and Alpha's roles are. E!SE Mat world is the most parsimonious but does mean we have Archer CWing deliberately on DeTess over Mat, and E!Mat CWing on Archer over DeTess when he should have been willing to CW on DeTess instead of exposing Archer that way.

? I'm saying that as long as we're looking at four-member team worlds, this is what we know so far: Aman: Cultist with Iron Will and Silver Dust (claimed by Araris) Archer: Cultist with Spellbook (claimed by me) C#3: Cultist Shade Expert C#4: ??? We also know that there's a Cultist Shade Expert, but as Shade Experts have Silver Bones, this seems a bit strong to pre-emptively suppose a team of five world without stronger Village padding. So suppose for now a team of four world. If we think any of the non-Sart Writers are Evil, we are pretty much requiring C#4 to be a Writer. But that leaves very little room for you to be Evil as well. I don't think this is confirmed but it is a thought I've been having while trying to solidify my thoughts on team composition. Obviously I do think a Thief is a decent fit on the team, but I question if it fits that well with what we know/might currently suppose, at the very least.

Insofar as we're hypothesising a four-member team, Fae can be an odd fit, depending on whether you think a Writer is also Evil. Five-member team isn't impossible at this juncture though, just #feelsweird.

I mean, it's also Night so not like you can vote right now Getting ahead of everyone to drop this meme if at least one of <JNV, Araris, TJ> is also Evil alongside Aman:

I'm leaning towards GM mistake at this point - since Archer was insane, his name shouldn't have appeared because that was a no-vote. At least that was what happened to my vote on Aman. Then we just see an anon vote for Fae, if there's one.

D2: D3: I felt like it's worth highlighting the delta here. If you expect the Elims to be on both trains no matter what to gain items, then we need to be looking in the: <TKN, Mat, Araris, TJ, DeTess, Devo> pool - but these have a high preponderance of Village-appearing players, and as Mat pointed out earlier, even if we don't expect the train to be fully clean, we likely expect a Village majority there, sufficient to make the Elims feel a bus is inevitable. What if we take the other way around though? Suppose we hypothesise the Elims wanted the Spellbook more than Silver Dust: Then we see two discrepancies: JNV votes on D2 but not on D3. Conversely, Fae, Alpha, and Ash all join on D3 but weren't present on D2. Edited to add: I don't include myself in the delta as I was insane on D2 and anyway had chosen to vote for Aman.

@Elandera?

True. The additional element might be the Spellbook - it seems the Elims wanted the Spellbook more than they wanted the Silver Dust, which if you think about it from the fact they still had a functioning SE protect back then, makes sense. But the fact Archer also put in no kill suggests they either didn't need it (Silver Dust in Elim hands - hi Araris!) or decided to do without it because keeping Archer alive was more important. Edited to add: Do without it -> Just kill and tank the 5%. Edited to add 2: <TKN, Mat, Araris, Eiwlil, Kas, Fae, Alpha, Ash, TJ, DeTess, JNV, Steel, Alv, Devo> Of this list: Strike out Devo for the roleblock. Strike out myself for the Lurch. Steel wasn't remotely online I think, so strike him out for now. <TKN, Mat, Araris, Eiwlil, Kas, Fae, Alpha, Ash, TJ, DeTess, JNV, Steel, Alv, Devo> Suppose we strike out TKN for seeming Village by that denunciation of Archer. Suppose as well we kick Mat out for being one Archer CW and who Aman broke the tie on after Rollovet. Suppose we also strike out DeTess for being the other Archer CW. Suppose we strike out TJ for claiming to have wanted to pass a Pallid Mask - no way of confirming the action was really 'Pass Mask' rather than 'send in kill' but he has an alibi, which we don't really necessarily have for the rest of the list. This gives us a pool of: <TKN, Mat, Araris, Eiwlil, Kas, Fae, Alpha, Ash, TJ, DeTess, JNV, Steel, Alv, Devo> <Araris, Eiwlil, Fae, Alpha, Ash, JNV, Alv> - this is the cleaned up version. Two of whom are likely to have put in the kill and the protect respectively.

Hi Elims I don't think you have any reason to trust me but you better hide your actions because I'm using a Spellbook on one of you tonight :eyes: Thank Archer for me. <3 -Mordekai, actual Shade Expert >:) Edited to add: @TheAlpha929 - You mind passing/loaning your Mask to White Fox Devo instead? Think I'm good for now Edited to add 2: @Alvron: ? Edited to add 3: @Illwei The reason it can't be a pallid mask is this rule clarification from the write-up claris. i.e. the only reason we have 5% right now implies that Sart died to the Shades. If say, Archer had been attacked by normal Wrath of the Shades but stayed alive because he was protected, then we don't see a reset. i.e. another player must be dead, not merely attacked. Archer had not been dead at the start of D3 (and recall Archer never denied being attacked by Sart.) This means that that Sart's attack could not have triggered Wrath because the necessary condition, Archer's death, was not fulfilled. The only way these two conditions work is: -Sart attacks Archer. This trips the E!SE protection. -Archer survives but goes insane. -Wrath triggers because of the protection. -Sart dies. A Pallid Mask couldn't lead to Wrath being triggered so it isn't possible here. Edited to add 4: Don't understand the late exchange between @Matrim's Dice and @Illwei. Train size + the fact he was scanned doing nothing, against his claims, had made some dubious claims anyway, etc just made this a hard train to defend. Not sure why lack of resistance indicative of anything here - Elims were not going to win this one in most realistic worlds.

Pallid Mask does not protect from Wrath of the Shades. Edited to add: It also doesn't trigger it. There is no world in which Sart can die from normal Wrath if he doesn't successfully kill Archer. There is no other corpse. Therefore, it cannot be normal Wrath. To repeat: 1 corpse = Sart -> This entails that Wrath of the Shades would not normally have triggered because there was no kill. A player must actually be dead for Wrath to increase and potentially be triggered. Sart was the only corpse, so Sart could not have triggered Wrath. Wrath counter = 5% -> This entails that the Wrath counter reset, because it always increases when there is a corpse. The only exception is when a Shade Expert's retaliatory protect is triggered. Put all of that together and it has to be an E!Shade Expert. Edited to add 2: They did?

What DeTess said. We know from the combination of dead Sart and no increase that Wrath triggered. Since it sure as hell wasn't my protect, it's from the E!SE. Announcing that Archer had a Spellbook. I guess I have some extra-spicy decisions to be making tonight! >>

I'll take a look if I have the time/energy, anyway. I've consistently been asking myself what it would take for a V!Archer world here but it just doesn't really make sense. E!TKN lying is the sort of thing you do to close out a game, not open it. And Archer was probably going to be dead one way or another. You could suggest I suppose he was trying to buy some Village credit, but eh. Disagree. We've had numerous past games with at least one Elim being up for the lynch on D1 and one of the votes on them being their teammate. I don't think that both Araris and TJ are Evil, but I think it's possible one of them could be. Araris and TJ were just scarce enough that it's also possible they didn't really have the time to switch off - which would explain both Aman voting on the Mat CW, and Archer's own subsequent tiebreaker. (I think it does draw attention to the fact that Ash and Alpha both made votes on you near end D1 as well - possible one of them made a saving vote.) There's a few reasons I think this specifically doesn't clear Araris/looks worse for Araris: -The Glowpaste bait (I agree I mentioned in thread it's not conclusive, but I have to acknowledge an Elim team that would've taken a shot in me/Devo after having lost an Elim and having failed to make a successful kill is one that has a pretty high risk appetite, believes they have info they have to act on, or both.) I'd also note that if Araris did think I had it, I am aware E!Araris ruthlessly targets scans. So I'd've been a priority target then to stop the Glowpaste from leaving my inventory (I claimed to be passing it to a trusted player and implied I would be unprotected.) -Why Archer took no action. TKN claimed this. As you pointed out, there's pretty much no reason to not have Archer put in the kill, since he's already being protected by the Shade Expert. This suggests to me that we should suspect they still have Silver Dust, which implicates Araris directly or indirectly - in the direct world, it's Araris who is the knife, in the indirect world, Araris is the Shade Expert, and claimed Silver Dust in place of a second teammate on the D2 Aman train. (h/t @Devotary of Spontaneity for this line of reasoning) We can un-green TJ - it's just that if we do, we accept two Elims stacked onto a teammate D1, which is...how the opening of the recent/Jan game AG9 played out as well, IIRC, and Araris was one of the Elims who did that in that game as well. The alternative is we suppose the Elims were willing to risk Wrath without Silver Dust or the Shade Expert's protection, or that the Elims have a second Silver Dust, which makes less sense since they also have a Shade Expert anyway. -Distro reasons. Don't want to say too much about it immediately. Anyway I'll say a bit about the other greens: Devo is obvious. DeTess IMO looks very good as the CW to Archer. Can say something similar for Mat as well as Aman's willingness to vote on Mat. (TJ and Araris's votes landed early IMO and never really moved.) TKN looks good from today's claim, though I could see some ersatz world where TKN claims for Village credit but I don't feel it makes that much sense. Just wanted to say it anyway. Agree with the assessment that the effective pool is: <Ash, Aloha, Fae, Illwei, Steel, Alv.> Edited to add: Should note that I say this but also just flat-out believe that Araris is likely Evil at this stage, but am not sure. I think there's an <Ash/Aloha> choice actually because: D1: I think it's worth keeping in mind Aloha and Ash were the two late voteswappers onto the DeTess train. I don't think they are both Evil (though they both could very well be.) Then Archer subsequently CWs onto DeTess. Agreed that at most one of <Araris, TJ> is Evil. View is that it's Araris. D2: I point out that if I ungreen TJ, this is a high Village train. If we add the constraint that one of Araris and TJ is Evil, then 2/7 of this train is Evil, at most, if not 1/7. Explained now by the E!Shade Expert whom sorry not sorry I still think is OP no I am absolutely not salty that the E!Shade Expert is more useful than I am nope not at all Steel is probably a flip we're going to get if he doesn't sign back on as I don't recall him posting in the Night and I believe this game has a two Turns activity filter @Elandera But I also just think he's Village so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cheers, and I always worry See: pages of 'omg what if Aman is actually Village and I just let my bro get murdered' to Elan last Day

Ty. Passing is a Night action! Edited to add: Two Pallid Mask claims, hmm...