Fifth of Daybreak

24 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Because never seeing the conversation between Szeth and Dalinar...horrible thought. 

I don't see why people are so upset by this. The far more interesting conversation would have been Dalinar's reply to King T when he confesses his responsibility for the assassin in white. I can imagine that the Szeth/Dalinar conversation was as dull as dirt:

["Dalinar Kholin, I have sworn my third ideal of the Skybreakers to follow you."

Dalinar grunted. "Taravangian says he made you kill the world leaders with a magic rock."

"My oathstone held no magic, but he speaks truth. I am no longer bound to it. I serve you now." 

Dalinar nodded. The assassin, Szeth, had killed his brother, but they had larger problems to deal with now. Much larger. Best to move on. Vengeance had proven fruitless long ago.] 

And boom, they're past it. 

[Hey, that was really boring Szeth, you should draw me instead.]

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

Hey, fun thing to do: read all the Blackthorn RAGE flashbacks.

Like the one where he commits to never do anything to try to usurp the throne 29 years prior to the present before Elhokar is even born? The scene where he gifts Gavilar the Shards Elhokar bears to this day? Dalinar gave him his shards,now he's going to usurp the kingdom?

His entire life has been devoted to the Kholin house. If you want me to buy your argument, I'm going to need some specific examples from.the cited text.

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

Elhokar must be thinking that the drunken bloodthirsty maniac is back.

Is Drunk Dalinar back or bloodthirsty maniac Dalinar? They're two very distinct people. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

It makes his timidity around Dalinar in WoR all the more logical.

In my experience, most entitled egos become very timid around those who cause them to become disillusioned. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

And his concern for his mother? Warranted concern for her safety rather than just concern over impropriety.

I literally quoted the lines where Elhokar flat out stated that his concern was for his reputation. Dalinar has never once physically abused his family before this. What evidence does Elhokar have to be concerned for her safety?

 

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the attempt on Dalinar was not a trick but Sadeas and Gavilar trying to dispose of a warlord general they no longer have a use for?

How would they have allied with the Rift, and what would be the point of burning it to the ground? Why would they risk his Shards in enemy hands like this instead of their own soldiers? Why would the uniforms have been off enough to warn Dalinar? Why would Sadeas have arrived almost in time to foil the plot? Why not have two shardbearers there to finish the job when one of the alleged conspirators literally says he doesn't think a rockslide could kill Dalinar before he has Plate? Too many holes.

4 minutes ago, kaellok said:

That, more than anything, to me shows that he has earned at least the benefit of the doubt of redemption.   

Did he succeed in it?  Was he done?  Was there more that he could or should have done?  Yes.  Moash decided to not let him, though, and story-wise, this was the right decision. 

I think we're pretty much in full agreement here,for Szeth, we'll probably have to agree to disagree. While he was Truthless, (or believed himself to be) he believed that he was on the only true path left for him, and walked it with exactness. It may not the be the capital T true path, but knowing an action to be damaging to yourself, believing it to be evil, and subjecting yourself to it because, in spite of that knowledge, you truly believe it is the right thing to do, is far removed from Szeth knowing the right path and refusing to walk it. 

Brandon has primed us incredibly early to turn on Honor. Szeth is the most Honorable character in the books, he's kept his oaths to the letter. Yet the most Honorable character in the books has also committed wholesale slaughter on a scale never before seen on Roshar. Honor without Passion is cold and detached, whereas as Passion without Honor is zealous fervor. We're seeing characters on both ends of the spectrum start to move closer to each other, from Kaladin's unbridled passion refining into the disciplined Radiant we're seeing more of, to Jasnah's slow March towards warmth. Lift needs Discipline, Szeth needs Passion. Without the other to give them context, they're both empty husks.

7 minutes ago, kaellok said:

(Just as a note: I'm not sure what you're saying or asking for us in your edit in the first post.  Are you saying you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar is deserving of redemption?  Or that you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar has earned redemption?)

My edit isn't a request for you to evaluate, it was an update of the post following some very astute comments that made me realize my poor choice of phrasing was not getting my meaning across in the way I intended.  It was a request to replace any instances of "deserving redemption" in my OP with the phrase "earning redemption" mentally. When I had originally drafted it, I was always mentally adding a 'yet' whenever I put that he didn't deserve it. 

 

11 minutes ago, kaellok said:

I think that Elhokar is deserving of the redemption arc that he was given. 

I agree with this.

 

11 minutes ago, kaellok said:

We see very clearly as far back as WoR that he knows things are wrong and that he isn't the person the nation needs, but he doesn't know how to be that person. 

We also see his motivation for that isn't to become better for the sake of serving more ably, but because he's worried about his image and his legacy.

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“Well, I did ask,” he muttered to himself. “I merely have to win you over as well. I will figure this out. I will be a king to be remembered.”

WoR 80

 

Quote

15 minutes ago, kaellok said:

Every action he makes, every sentence he speaks in OB is directed at being the person that is needed, but taking into consideration what will happen when he fails.

 

Not every action. He has a significant Aesudan blind spot as I have demonstrated in my OP, which led to disaster because he never considered failure in that regard.

 

17 minutes ago, kaellok said:

How anyone can say that someone who knows that they have done wrong and is actively doing absolutely everything that could possibly be expected of anyone to be better isn't deserving of any redemption at all is shocking to me.  

You misunderstood me. I hope my first paragraph in this post clears that up, if not, I hope that you read the posts in between the OP and here which should be more than sufficient to demonstrate that misunderstanding.

 

18 minutes ago, kaellok said:

Szeth did not think what he was doing was wrong; he predicted the chaos and devastation that would come.  And he did it anyway. 

This is simply not true. 

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“There is no greatness in killing,” Szeth said.

“You speak like a kukori. Great men create food and clothing. He who adds is to be revered. I am he who takes away. At least in the killing of men such as these I can pretend to be doing a service.”

“This from the man who nearly toppled one of the greatest kingdoms in Roshar?”

“This from the man who committed one of the most heinous slaughters in Roshar,” Szeth corrected.

He clearly sees what he's doing is wrong, and he thinks he deserves punishment for it as well. 

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“You walk on stone. Why is this? Each Shin I have known calls stone holy, and refuses to set foot on it.”

“It cannot be holy. If it truly were, Master Ki, it would have burned me away long ago.” He nodded to her, then stepped into the Purelake.

OB 92 Water Warm as Blood

 

54 minutes ago, kaellok said:

His debt was so very large and he was ill equipped to pay much of what he owed, but he had definitely shown that he was wanting to pay it to the people who he owed the most--the citizens of his country.  If he hadn't, then he would still be alive, in Urithiru.  

It's not until he swears the first ideal, imo, he's finally dedicated to service to his country. Even swearing fealty to Dalinar had the underhanded motive of giving Elhokar authority of his kingdom back so that he could become a good king. If he was concerned about his citizens, he wouldn't worry about being taught how to be a hero, he'd worry about being taught how to help his people.

 

58 minutes ago, kaellok said:

For me, if someone cannot recognize what they are doing, I will judge them less harshly than if they can.  Ignorance is not an excuse, but it can often be a mitigating factor.

This leads me to believe your earlier statement on Szeth was a typo. I'm going to reply as if that's the case. 

For me, someone who believes that they are condemning themselves to eternal damnation by following a path they believe is right and not straying from that path is far more mitigating than ignorance in a tit for tat scenario, but Elhokar is not ignorant, he's willfully  ignorant. He deceives himself in order to protect his ego, and in doing so he gets those he has a duty to protect hurt. That's pretty egregious in my book, to fail in your duty because of vanity and ego.

46 minutes ago, Govir said:

Elhokar made a passing judgement that put the grandparents in prison / waiting cells where they died. Elhokar definitely didn't help Moash's grandparents, but there are mitigating factors in the "Roshone affair." 

I agree, and I think it's strange that Moash never brings it up. I think Brandon is underplaying this to make it a bigger moment when Kaladin has to step in and confront Moash in Hearthstone. 

Pffft. I spotted Vivenna back in WoR. 

Oh...you meant accurately spotted her.

In all seriousness though, by the time they finished up her description with a sword I was like "YOUNG LADY I HAVE SCRUTINIZED EVERYWHERE FOR YOU AND YOU HAVE THE GALL TO JUST STAND OUT IN THE OPEN LIKE FRESH BLUE PAINT ON A WALL? RUDE!"

44 minutes ago, Lightning said:

Let me wax a little philosophical

Only if you'll let me argue semantics back. 

Redemption is the act of redeeming, which, for my purposes and my interpretation in this post, I use the definition "to make amends for, make up for, offset."

Amends, in turn, is defined as "compensation for a loss or an injury, reparations". Reparations is then defined as "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged."

While we can both agree that there are some situations that ultimately cannot be compensated for, I think that the base definition I had in mind when drafting the OP implies that, in a general sense, redemption, from a non-theological standpoint, is something that can be earned through amends of some sort.

This isn't to say that I'm rejecting your ideas or insisting they're wrong. Not at all. I think that you've presented your point quite well, and it's given me a few things to think about. I'm not, generally speaking, a very spiritual person, but I love to engage in this kind of discussion regardless of my personal feelings. 

Anyway, bringing this around to Elhokar. I don't don't dislike Elhokar, and he showed the capacity for changed, and the willingness to start, but he never cashed the check so to speak. For me, showing a willingness to change isn't enough, but actualizing and seizing upon that change would be absolutely vital in order to begin the process of making amends. The first of the 100 pence, to go more in line with your post.

To bring up something I also haven't addressed, o think it's significant that one of the largest demons from his past was never directly addressed to him, and the symbolism here is astounding to me. Elhokar has faced the truth and responsibility for his poor leadership, his horrible wife, his weakness, and his need for help. He's never addressed his past crime and taken responsibility for the death of Moash's grandparents. The one demon that he hasn't faced, that he's actually been sheltered from facing, first by Dalinar originally, then again when Dalinar talks to Kaladin in prison, and then a final time when Kaladin defends Elhokar, comes from his past to strike him down. 

I think there's some beautiful symmetry here with what you said about taking a life. It's the one thing he's yet to face head on and acknowledge within himself, and the physical embodiment of that last sin is what comes to strike him down in his moment of redemption.

38 minutes ago, Govir said:

Nope not weird. I loved the scene, but hated the action (if that makes sense). I hate the character of Moash, not the story of Moash.

Ummm, yeah, there was definitely a visceral part of me that was all "Yeah, Moash! Kings aren't above the law!" It was small, but it was there. 

Moash is such an interesting character to me. Is he so wrong to want to seek vengeance for his family against a man who twisted the law and cost two lives because of it? In most other stories, Moash's storyline could be that of the main protagonist and we'd all cheer him on. Am I supposed to hate him because Elhokar started to change for the better? Do I ignore Moash's recent changes helping the singers from their unfair treatment because of Kaladin's short-sightedness? His teaching the downtrodden to fight? Ultimately, he killed Elhokar on a battlefield, while he was an enemy combatant. Can this even be considered murder? 

4 hours ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

He has to have beaten some bosses at least, considering all the Epic Loot he has: Aviar, Royal Locks, someones hairpins, slippers...

 

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

And like any good fetch quest, I bet there were a dozen intermediary items and relics he needed to cart across the Cosmere to trade for the one thing he needed to trade the next guy on the other side of the Cosmere to get what he actually wanted.

Biggorons Sword quest writ large.

No way guys. I don't buy it.

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A mantel covered in curiosities, each in its own glass display. Deep rugs from Marat. Five paintings of the finest skill, each of a different Herald.

Nobody has this many rare cosmetic items unless they're pay to win. 

I, for one, hope we never see the wedding. This way I can continue on with my head cannon that their marriage was officiated by Nightblood.

"You may DESTROY EVIL. I mean kiss the bride."

4 minutes ago, Willow said:

Hmmm. He did send soldiers after the Parshendi (cavalry, Jasnah said it was very expensive when they were destroyed), so he must've been aware enough to do that, at least?

Good catch. It did say it had been several hours at that point too, I doubt he kept drinking. I mean, he could have done those things drunk, but it seems less likely.  Perhaps he just thought they had a king beyond those leaders?

Like I said, it was probably a good thing I didn't post in there, and that's entirely removed from what anyone thinks about Shallan, my problem was not with that opinion. That's all I want to say on this 

25 minutes ago, Willow said:

Dalinar, you already hanged the Parshendi leaders in retribution, did you forget?

I mean...all things considered, it's possible he was never sober enough to be aware. 

1 hour ago, Willow said:

the beginning of that thread started out needlessly negative.

 

I withheld from posting in that thread, and it was probably a good decision on my part, but for the post you quoted I pretty much just wanted a good lead in for the Shallan Pun.

I've got some more time so I'm going to try to reply in more specifics. (I'm working today and posting between ambulance runs, op took me about 6 hours of interruptions to get done haha.)

 

@Ookla the Metroid with Dalinar, it's harder for me to lay the blame completely at his feet with the knowledge that he's been under the effect of a splinter of Odium for most of his life. If the chronological read includes the understanding of the Unmade, then I credit Dalinar far more than Elhokar. As far as I know, Elhokar's faults were completely his own, Dalinar was being groomed by the Shard of Hatred.

@Ookla the Toasted for your first point, I don't think we disagree on anything you're saying. I don't fault Elhokar for being average, for wanting to be more, for his faith, and I agree his character eventually turns tragic, especially in the classic sense of the word when his ultimate goal is to become a hero for his son and he fails in that. Ultimately, I fault him for allowing his pride to blind him to reality with catastrophic consequences. There's nothing wrong with being unexceptionable, I do my best not to judge people for things beyond their control. There is something wrong with not accepting your own limitations and causing undue harm to others because of that refusal, which is where I criticise Elhokar. 

I think we might need to agree to disagree on the assassinations. He doesn't just test his allies, he implicates his family in an attempt to kill him. He has to have a reason for his suspicions of Dalinar, I personally believe it's because of how often Dalinar has had to step in to fix his mistakes. I definitely disagree with leaving it just at him wanting to test allies from fear though. Dalinar was more than that. 

Dalinar was the least in on the Vengeance Pact than anyone as proven by his GemHearts record. He initially approves of it because it will provide unity, then he uses it as an excuse to seek out the old magic and become a better father. The start of the vengeance pact is the start of Dalinar's redemption arc.

Jasnah has spoken out before, to the point where Elhokar feels self conscious enough to eye Adolin when he preemptively defends himself. Dalinar notes that the timeline doesn't line up before he leaves, as does Shallan when receiving information at Adolin's tailor. Elhokar had all of the information available, he was lying to himself. Whether or not it's understandable is secondary to the fact that he actively ignored these signs to lie to himself about her. Jasnah thought she was dangerous enough she almost had her assassinated before Gavilar's death. I'm guessing there were quite a few red flags.

Don't let anything, and I mean anything, I say stop you from liking a character you like though 

@Calyx I definitely agree it's a tragedy. I mostly wanted to write this thread because I've seen the odd comment here or there that his death was unfair or that Brandon framed it this way just to hurt people. After having experienced OB, I can think of no other ending for Elhokar that fits as well and it was honestly one of my favorite scenes from the book.

2 hours ago, Govir said:

And then he has the gall to nod / salute to Kaladin as if to say "Mission accomplished," turning around and striding out again.

Is it weird that I absolutely loved this part? Probably a little weird. Idk, I love Moash's story. He's 1000x more interesting this book than he was last book.

 

2 hours ago, hypatia said:

I think the decicion to bind these people to himself, to send them into the fight was from the beginning Moash's plan to paralyse Kaladin

I hadn't thought about that. If that's true, I have more  and less respect for him at the same time. More respect for his foresight, less for his character overall. I find unlikely that he would stick up for them and teach them only to use them as cannon fodder though. I think he's gone full Kaladin for Odium. Humanity is broken, he fights for the Singers.

@Ookla the Grey I like everything you're putting down.

1 hour ago, NightFrost said:

so far I have not seen anyone look at this from Elhokar's perspective

I mean you can try, but keep in mind "Most days, Elhokar has trouble saving face, let alone cities.”

@WhiteLeeopard Little Gav growing up I think is going to be extensively more tragic than Elhokar's death. I can only imagine what kind of scenes between him and Dalinar are going to have me bawling after the long break in the second half of the series.

@StormingTexan Hooray for dead characters (who aren't Adolin)

 

1 hour ago, Naurock said:

I guess the real issue here is he's a King and that's his tragic flaw. If he wasn't king he wouldn't even be worth mentioning in the story.

That's probably the most true thing posted on this thread. 

(Ignore the spoiler tag. Mobile problems.)

 

3 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I don't agree that he wasn't deserving of redemption, because I believe that absolutely anyone is capable of change, but from a storytelling perspective, this ending was the entire reason for his "redemption.

Honestly, I think you did a better job of summarizing what my feelings are here than I did. 

 

My original phrase, that he doesn't deserve redemption, in retrospect with the other posts here, was poorly chosen. I was looking forward to his redemption prior to this book, but he failed to learn and grow quickly enough to have earned his redemption before his time came.

 

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

Dunno. It is taken as a fact enough to be stated on the Coppermind. 

Haha...well....

But I looked into the babsk thing a little further, and it does appear to be a strictly Thaylen word. That doesn't rule out magical interpretation of they don't have a word for  'journeyman' as it doesn't appear in any of the books. 

 

Still, after looking into it a little further, I'm more convinced than I was.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

@Hiadin Haloun @kmosiman

Mraize is Thaylen. We have Peters word on it. Good thinking though, Hiadin :-)

 

 

The evidence seems kinda shaky. Could this be an instance of "Peter lies?"

13 minutes ago, Lightning said:

"....he didn't deserve redemption..."

This is something I struggle with.  I think of Darth Vader, a mass murderer, one who betrayed those who trusted him, blew up planets, etc... and I'm supposed to just forget about all of those things because he finally did something right and stopped the Emporer?  Not going to happen.

The word "redeem" literally means to buy back.  Redemption isn't complete until all wrongs have been righted.  This is literally impossible for us humans to obtain.  But we recognize when people are on the track to righting past wrongs.  We often give the benefit of the doubt to those have started on that path.

In Elhokar's case, he is guilty of murdering innocents, and waging a genocidal war.  Can he right those wrongs?  It would take an extreme amount of change in his life.

In Dalinar's case, he is guilty of murdering innocents, and waging a genocidal war (at the behest of his king).  Can he right those wrongs?  It is still taking a lot of effort on his part, but the fact he keeps standing up and doing better tells me he is trying.

I really enjoy all of what you've said here and I think it adds a lot of great context to my post. 

I also brought the subject up with my brother through text message and he helped me get my thoughts more in order as well, so let me clarify my points just a little bit. 

Mostly, my problem with Elhokar is that it took a disaster or major event every time for him to grow into a better and stronger person. Had he been less vain and more quick to grow, he would have bonded he spren sooner and possibly could have saved the mission. 

 

My biggest problem with Elhokar is that he built his own pyre. You can't wait until your bank account is empty and your credit cards are maxed to get your finances in order. Elhokar's arc was the equivalent of this, and as such,his death was very fitting for me.

After all the Shallan negativity, this thread is a huge releaf.

Edit: while the nature of my argument stays the same, I would like you to view this Instead from Elhokar not having earned his Redemption Instead of not deserving it. My original choice of words was poor.

 

Before I start, I want to preface what I'm about to say with the disclaimer that I'm not trying to put down anyone's opinion or anything similar to that nature. If you disagree and enjoy Elhokar as a character and didn't like his arc, I definitely respect that, and look forward to some spirited debate. I just have some thoughts that have been floating around I wanted to put out there and my objective reasons for those feelings. 

Without further pre-amble, here goes:

I think that Elhokar's arc was the perfect ending to a character with very few redeeming qualities, and that Elhokar was not deserving of the redemption arc he was headed towards. 

I'm going to organize my thoughts by first going over Elhokar's flaws before OB, briefly discussing the path he was taking to Radiance and especially how a bond with the cryptics relates to his past, and finally how that combination, for me personally, makes the character not deserving of full redemption, and why his death was very satisfying for me. 

I. Elhokars Past Flaws

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"Elhokar though, he worries about the wrong things. His father wore a simple crown because he needed no reminder of his authority. Elhokar wears a simple crown because he worries that something more lavish might make people look at it, instead of at him. He doesn’t want the competition.”

-Hoid 68 Aim for the Sun

Elhokar's fatal sin is that of Vanity, as Hoid points out earlier in this scene. In his defense, he's grown up with incredibly large expectations thrust upon him. His mother is a renowned artifabrian, his father is the greatest monarch since the Sunmaker, his uncle is the greatest general alive, his cousin is one of the most skilled duelists, his sister is a world renowned scholar. Elhokar is...unimpressive. 

There is nothing innately wrong with being unimpressive. The world thrives on people who understand their place in it and are driven to fulfill that duty well. This is Vorin doctrine through elevation of callings. This was not good enough for Elhokar though, he was not satisfied with taking his calling of leading Alethkar and fulfilling that duty to the best of his ability, he had to be recognized as significant. His goal wasn't to do good, but to be recognized for doing good. It's a common theme for Elhokar. He puts the cart before the horse, recognizing the destination but ignoring the significance of the journey. This is apparent at his father's funeral. 

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“I’ll have vengeance, Mother,” Elhokar whispered. “I’ll have it!” The young king spun toward the gathered lighteyes, standing before his father’s outstretched stone hand. “You’ve each come to me privately to give support. Well, I demand you swear it in public! Today, we make a pact to hunt those who did this. Today, Alethkar goes to war!”

105 Spirit, Mind, and Body

There are several criticisms I have for this. First off, what does he want for vengeance? The leaders of the Parshendi confessed and we're executed, justice was served. What objective is he trying to meet? Genocide? 

No, he reveals what he's truly after in the speech, public support. He wasn't satisfied with them swearing to him privately, he needed an excuse to demand the Highprinces swear to him, then a justification to try to match his father's conquest by invading the Shattered Plains. That he provides no objectives or direction as the war wages is further proof. 

He married Aesudan against Jasnah's advice because he wants her strength to help his reputation, not because of love or because it will help his house.

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“I know that Jasnah says I shouldn’t have married her—that Aesudan was too hungry for power. Jasnah never understood. I needed Aesudan. Someone with strength…”

OB 67

Fast forward a few years to where we catch up to him. On the Shattered Plains, he invents a assassination attempt because he's worried his uncle wants to kill him. This stems, Imo, from his frustration at Dalinar for stepping in so often to fix Elhokar's mistakes.

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"Dalinar was right. Again. I’m so tired of him being right, and me being wrong."

WoR 80 To Fight the Rain

When Elhokar is worried about Dalinar courting Navani, it's not because he's worried about his mother or his uncle, but because of how it could reflect on him. 

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“Good. I had wanted to speak with you. Do you know of these rumors about you and my mother? I realize that nothing untoward could be happening, but I do worry about what people think.

“Honestly, Uncle,” Elhokar said, shaking his head. “I’m growing very intolerant of your reputation in camp. What they are saying reflects poorly on me, you see, and …"

WoK 69 Justice

He seeks out Kaladin for his help because he's jealous of how Kaladin is seen as a hero, not because he wants to fulfill his duty better. 

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“I’ve seen how your men regard you; I’ve heard how people speak of you. You’re a hero, bridgeman.”He stopped, then walked up to Kaladin, taking him by the arms. “Can you teach me?”

Kaladin regarded him, baffled.

“I want to be a king like my father was,”Elhokar said. “I want to lead men, and I want them to respect me.”

WoR 80 

I'm sure there's other examples, but essentially, it's all summed up by what the Stormfather said:

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They go about this backward. Foolish men. They can’t draw in Light and become Radiant; they first must be approaching Radiance, and look for Light to fulfill the promise.

OB 64 Binder of Gods

II. Path to Radiance/Cryptics

The most tragic part of Elhokar's death is it comes just as he achieves the first ideal and overcomes those flaws, cut down just as he starts his path to redemption, but what led him there? 

I'm going to lightly touch on the first ideal, because I know it's a contentious topic, but I think it's central to the topic. From my interpretation, at it's core, the first ideal is an oath to use your strength in service to others. This is something that Elhokar has never done up to this point. His actions were always couched in attempting to make himself look better. By being able to swear the first oath, he overcame that, and was starting on the path to use his position in service to his kingdom.

For the cryptics, we know that they are attracted to lies. 

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“Cryptics are trouble. They enjoy lies, Jasnah. Feast upon them. Speak one word untrue at a gathering, and seven cluster around you. Their humming fills your ears.”

OB 47 So much is Lost.

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“Shallan,”Pattern said, moving closer to her. “I know that you have forgotten much of what once was. Those lies attracted me. But you cannot continue like this; you must admit the truth about me. About what I can do, and what we have done. Mmm . . . More, you must know yourself. And remember.”

WoR 60 Veil Walks

And we also know that they need truth to progress. We know that they have been following Elhokar since WoK

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"They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman …”

WoK 58 Journey

So, it's pretty easy to speculate that the Cryptics we're attracted by the lies that Elhokar told himself about his motives, that his attempts to increase his respect and reputation disguised by his lies brought him to their attention. Likewise, his transition to sincerely wish to use his power in service, and his ability to finally see himself for his own flaws and understand his own motives allowed him to reach across and bond him. 

That brings us to:

III. No Redemption

So why doesn't he deserve redemption? He's made the transition, his motives have improved, he's finally understood what truly is required of him by his station. Why won't I cut him some slack?

Well, I don't think he would have been irredeemable had the narrative gone another way, but as written in OB, he definitely was. I actually was looking forward to his redemption end of WoR. However, the behavior demonstrated in the first point continued throughout the OB. He has made great strides in self awareness, but his still has a huge blindspot: Aesudan. This is in spite of all evidence pointing to her being the cause of the trouble and along with Jasnah's warning.

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"Aesudan is there; if the rioting is still happening, she’s fighting against it.”

12

“And Aesudan condemned her to death,” Elhokar said. Lit by only a few spheres at the center of their circle, his face was half shadowed. It was a most intriguing effect, and Shallan took a Memory for later sketching.

“Yes, Your Majesty.”

“It was the dark spren, obviously, who gave the actual order,” Elhokar said. “The dark spren that is controlling the palace. My wife would never be so imprudent as to publicly execute an ardent during such parlous times.”

62

"Elhokar, this started long before the Everstorm.”

“We can … ask her,” the king said. “Once she is safe. Something must have been wrong. Aesudan was always proud, and always ambitious, but never gluttonous.”

67

He still has trouble admitting it with her in front of his eyes, the city in ruins, his child unwell in his arms. 

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“Oh, Elhokar,” the queen was saying. “You were ever so oblivious. Your father had grand plans, but you … all you ever wanted to do was sit in his shadow. It was for the best that you went off to play war.”

“So you could stay here and … and do this?” Elhokar said, waving toward the palace.

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It's not until Kaladin reminds him of what's truly at stake, his son, that Elhokar finally admits Aesudan is beyond help and leaves. 

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“Out,” Kaladin said. “But…” The king looked toward his wife.

“Elhokar,” Kaladin said, gripping the king’s shoulder. “Be a hero to the one you can save.”

84

Even then, it takes some of Shallan's transformation magic to fully complete the transformation. 

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Elhokar had fallen to his knees. In one arm he held his terrified son, in the other hand he held … a sheet of paper? A sketch? 

Kaladincould almost hear Elhokar stuttering the words. 

Life… life before death …

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So let's wrap this all together. Elhokar's past mistakes are beyond egregious. I didn't even touch on Moash's grandparents and their unjust death at his command. His path to Radiance required him to become self aware of his faults and take up his station in service to others, but the reason I feel he didn't deserve redemption was because of when it truly came. It wasn't until his throne was usurped by his uncle, his kingdom had been invaded, his palace shrouded by darkness, his wife consumed by an unmade, his capital fallen to the enemy, his mission to save the city failing, he was pushed along by Lightweaving magic and that he was his son's last line of defense that he finally was able to push past his previous lies and selfishness and achieve Radiance. 

For me, the cost is far too high for his redemption. I do think he could have been written in this book to have been redeemed, but, personally, the way the story played out, this was the only resolution, and it was a fitting one. 

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

The core of the coalition is Dalinar, it's too new and a blow to his reputation is a nail in the coalition's coffin. Kaladin has high reputation with the Kholins and may be alethi in general. For now Urithiru is still more akin to an alethi colony than an actual international place. 

Kaladin was made a slave by Amaram after saving his life by killing a Shardbearer, and then openly fought him in Thaylen City. That's become pretty common knowledge. There's so much evidence backing up that Sadeas's camp and Dalinar's camp we're at odds, and even more so that Kaladin is trustworthy. I mean, Alethi fought Alethi in Thaylen city, and Kaladin has been Sadeas and Amaram enemy number one since before that was a thing. How does that not get him any credibility? He's got the ultimate "I told you so," because every single Alethi darkeyes and light can say, "yeah, that flying bridgemen who fought Amaram at Thaylen City publicly condemned Amaram last year and challenged him to a duel and Dalinar imprisoned him for a month after that. You should probably trust him on this one."

So that leaves the other leaders with a choice, go against the guy that ultimately saved Thaylen city and openly employs people who can fly, soulcast, make illusions, heal from sword wounds to the chest, and has the assassin in white as a bodyguard while occupying an unassailable city hidden in the mountains with the world ending around you, or take what's being said by pretty much everyone (Dalinar, Kaladin, Szeth, Lift, King T,) and accept the coalition. 

 

To me, this is a clear cut choice. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

On 12/5/2017 at 9:43 AM, StormingTexan said:

It was Alethi soldiers they fought against that Dalinar sent. We all know it was under Odium's control but I still think it will be difficult for the other leaders to trust Dalinar and his troops again. 

Which other leaders? Fen was with Navani through most of the battle and witnessed Dalinar's Ascension. I don't see her being a problem in the future, and if the leader whose city was attacked is defending Dalinar, the other leaders won't have much weight to stand on, especially considering Thaylen city still stands after being attacked by Alethi and Singers, and Alethi fought Alethi. The same section of Alethi whose Highprince was killed by Dalinar's son as admitted after the battle, and who's internal politics has been on display all book and beyond, demonstrating the clear divide between Sadeas and greater Alethkar.

 

On 12/5/2017 at 9:43 AM, StormingTexan said:

Yep the perfect ruse stage the Assassin in White to attack his master and amazingly Dalinar was the only one to survive an attack. 

Not quite as amazing as infusing an entire treasury worth of Gemstones. Dalinar and the Radiants have done more than their fair share of miracles to demonstrate why he would have survived.

On 12/5/2017 at 9:50 AM, Aleksiel said:

Kaladin has no reputation or authority outside Alethkar. I don't see why non-alethi would see him as something more than Dalinar's extension.

He has the highest reputation inside Urithuru, which is what matters. The coalition is no longer an external affair, it's an internal Urithuru conflict. Queen Fen also was in a position to witness Kaladin emerging from the cognitive realm to fight in the battle of Thaylen city. He's also a Radiant, and King T has confessed. There's enough threads flying in the wind that the word of a man widely respected inside and outside of the command structure of the KR should be considered relevant. Especially since Wyndle should be able to confirm that Honorspren hate lies. 

 

Tl;Dr all I'm saying is there's a paper trail a mile long. I don't think I need to see them picking up the pieces to it, and I wouldn't find it an interesting read. Dalinar speaks softly, Szeth is a big stick, Odium is threatening the apocolypse, they've got bigger things to worry about. Especially when Szeth is basically the Death Star and Dalinar controls him and  Kaladin 'Skywalker' Stormblessed who could stop him, so what does it even matter if other people are suspicious? Dalinar's actions will prove his trustworthiness eventually, and the fear from the power that represents and fear of the enemy is impetus enough to prevent much in-fighting anyway. He's got the power of the Empire, the Diplomacy of the Rebellion, the skills of the Jedi, and a common enemy all uniting his side together. 

 

Szeth just seems like so small an issue in comparison.

Szeth fought on the side of the Thaylens, so I doubt they'll have many complaints about his presence after his display there. 

In Azir, Lift has a lot of Sway with Gawx, and she was the first to accept him, being friendly as far back as Edgedancer, so I think her vouching for him will smooth it over there. With Azir in line, the other countries behind them will toe the line. 

That leave King T, who's in no position to judge. 

Especially since Kaladin can bear witness that Szeth's actions and what he said about the Radiants match up with his new attitude. (I don't know how it all matches up with his revised death, I've not read the revised scene.) 

The fact that he used to try to kill Dalinar, and now serves him, should be weighty evidence as well. 

 

All in all, I don't really think "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is too farfetched a rationale in this situation. When the world is ending, I wouldn't complain if the most accomplished killer in the world stopped killing world leaders and joined the resistance. I'd watch him, but I wouldn't reject the help of a guy who made a giant stone monster disappear in a puff of black smoke. 

I certainly don't do anything to make the guy who killed three quarters of the world leaders mad after that display of power anyway. I mean, what is anyone going to do about it? They couldn't stop Szeth when they wanted to, they're going to waste the resources trying now that he's on their side?

16 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Yeah I was totally surprised to find out they are married. I mean how amazing is that. 

I mean....Matt Cauthon can have conversations with Jasnah. We don't have the language to describe.."hmmmm you would need numbers"

2 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I follow them on Facebook

I'm going to go do that now, to avoid future mind blowing about my favorite narrators.

1 minute ago, StormingTexan said:

She is in fact an omnivore. 

 

She's an omnomnomnomnomnivore.