Fifth of Daybreak

I guess I just don't understand how Dalinar gets to stop the murder investigation from moving forward if he's not in charge of it. If he actively resists the investigation, he destroys his reputation that he's been building for himself since Gavilar's death, and it will drive the other Highprinces away from him, especially if it's later revealed that Adolin is in fact the killer.

I've seen quite a few topics derailed by this discussion, and I'd hate for it to happen again. There's good debate on both sides of these issues on these threads: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7106-was-heleran-a-surgebinder/ http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8066-was-bent-nale-right-does-surgebinding-bring-on-the-desolations/ http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7838-when-szeth-meets-zahel/ (discussion is after all the silliness. Well, maybe not all.) Edit: My own personal thoughts on Nalan are summarized in my OP here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7531-nalan-and-ishar-the-dynamic-duo-spoilers-galore/

Why not? If my sword could disappear on me, I'd want a backup plan, no matter how short ten heartbeats is.

Maxal, I posted the direct Mraize quote earlier in the thread. WoB says Hoid didn't switch the Blade but noted it was a good question. That Blade is another huge mystery.

My main point was, whether he lies or not, he's quickly going to end up high on suspects list, with one of the weakest alibis.

Those definitely aren't the same Blades. Dalinar's Blade wouldn't have screamed if it was an Honorblade, and they have different descriptions, the one appearing in WoK being described as a spike, and the one Dalinar bonds being described as cleaver like, IIRC. I think the WoB you're thinking of states that the man who refers to himself as Taln in Kholinar is the same man who refers to himself as Taln who is taken to the warcamps.

Even if people think that, the first place to go in that situation is their commanding officer, who is Adolin. Adolin should know what patrols were responsible for what parts of the tower at what times. They come to talk to him, and he can either reveal that he was on the same level as Sadeas, or keep it a secret. Then, the men get questioned, and if he kept it a secret, the men will reveal he was there. This includes Adolin in the list of suspects by means now as well, not just motive, since he's in the same area as the soldiers who could possibly have committed the crime. The other scouting parties I would assume would all be able to vouch for none of their members being alone, at the very least they would use the buddy system, and that would leave Adolin as the only one without an alibi, unless the soldiers lie for him, but I've already illustrated the problem with that. The chances of a group of men all lying in the same way are very unlikely.

This seems contradictory to what you say here: They can't both have power over the investigation. If Dalinar and his aren't in charge, they can't very well refuse to let his men be questioned. You're also making a point that supports mine: Dalinar's men are the most likely suspects, and there's no one they won't be questioned, especially Adolin, who already publicly accused Sadeas at the match, and requested to duel him for justice.

In the Prologue, the other man talking to Nalan (presumably a herald, most widely assumed to be Kalak, though I think Ishar personally,) links Gavilar's murder to them. Amaram is most definitely a Son of Honor, and a lot of clues we have point towards Gavilar being one as well. The Sons of Honor are attempting to bring back Desolation in order to bring back the Heralds and the rule of the church, so taking out Amaram is not very far removed from his goal, which is to prevent Desolations from returning. It stands to reason if he's acting to prevent Desolations, he wouldn't just limit himself to one piece of the puzzle, but would also kill people who are actively working against that goal as well. As for the killings, is it really illegal to kill on a battlefield? I don't think any men on either side of the battle are going to get charged with any sort of crime, so going to a battlefield to take out Amaram makes the most sense. If it had been the Ghostbloods, they would most likely do it in a sneaky way, but the Skybreakers had to use the chance they had to kill him in a lawful way. We know that killing Surgebinders is one way he's working to prevent Desolations, it doesn't necessarily mean there aren't other things that could cause it that the Skybreakers are working against. He never says that's the only thing he's doing to prevent them on screen. Helaran is not working for the Ghostbloods, and Mraize states it as simple fact he's a Skybreaker. He's also willing to cite sources is seems, so I wouldn't doubt him.

I think the main reason he lied is how improbable it was he killed a shardbearer with a broken leg.

Given the current surgebinder situation, I'd say the opposite is more likely, at least until Adolin jumps on the Kholin train and nabs himself a spren.

Hooray! Another reason to tell my Latin joke on the forums! A Roman walks into a bar and says to the bartender "I'd like a martinus please." The bartender gives him a strange look and replies "do you mean a Martini?" The Roman glares at him and says "if I wanted more than one I'd ask for it!"

My theory is Skybreakers kill their spren on purpose in order to prevent desolations, requiring gemstones to bond the blades. There's a link to that thread (was Helaran a surgebinder) in my espoused theories spoilertag. The link takes you right to my post, so you'll have to go to the begining of the thread. But yeah, big mystery. I used my question when I met Brandon to try and figure it out. Actually it was that mystery that finally brought me to the 17th shard as a poster and not a lurker.

WoB says one was retrieved by a herald, who is widely assumed to be Nalan.

Upvote. I have absolutely no problems with what you just posted. Edit: Although we feel very differently about Jasnah

I'm not sure why you quoted that post of mine, because it's not the one where I said it, but I didn't see it would be enough for a conviction in modern times, it would be enough to detain him, which then would be followed by more intense questioning, and further investigations into things. People are detained all the time without the evidence needed to convict. Then they get taken to this little room where the police officers tell them that they have all the evidence they need and it really would be better for everyone if they just confessed. I don't think anyone was trying to imply that Adolin was the greatest threat, but this merely happened to be the topic everyone latched onto. Kaladin feeling like a new man, and overcoming his internal struggle does not erase his involvement with an assassination attempt on the king, or the fact that he actively hid information on a previous assassination attempt with which he was trusted to investigate. As soon as someone realizes that Moash is gone, there's going to be some questions that Kaladin has trouble answering, and if the truth comes out, there's going to be problems. (I had put this in the Dalinar section of my OP, but you didn't seem to address it anywhere.) Then there's also the unresolved issues with Amaram. Throughout the whole book, Syl fixates on how "Aramaram is ruining" Kaladin. The end of the story arch in WoR was very unsatisfying for me, so I know it had to be gut wrenching for Kaladin. Has he put together that Amaram is the high ranking lighteyes whose alliance Gavilar needed, which was the reasoning for not making Roshone a tenner? There's no denying that the Kholin's are at the heart of the Roshone affair. That was part of the reason for Kaladin including himself in the plot to kill Elhokar. I think that if Amaram's trial is just as unsatisfying, or if he never makes it to trial as some on the forums have suggested, this is going to open those wounds with a vengeance. I think you fixated too much on my single use of the word 'internal politics.' Public Relations is just as much a part of the workings of an organization as anything else, and to ignore that because it's an external force putting pressure on the internal workings was definitely not what I intended for this topic. It's a little unfair that you say the ardentia is not pertinent to this topic because they aren't within the order, and then argue later in your post that an external problem is the greatest challenge. Are the Ardentia part of the Knights Raidant? No. Is Vorinism part of the Knights Radiant? Absolutely. Shallan unconsciously draws glyphwards against evil when Jasnah talks heresy. The fact that Dalinar himself might align himself with Jasnah's heresy will cause even bigger problems. Case and point: Jasnah is presumed dead, and has not been associated with the new Radiants, who already have a public relations bloodbath to wade through thanks the to the reputation of the former knights. Bringing Jasnah into the fold will bring all those old enemies to bear against them. I'm definitely assuming that there were more than the Ghostbloods after Jasnah. I've already admitted that my Renarin section was definitely reaching as far as credibility, but other posters in the thread have brought up better conflicts concerning Renarin. Mainly that there might be some Blackthorn/Gavilar type conflict as Renarin comes into his new abilities and replaces Adolin as the golden child, and the public relations nightmare that is having someone who can see the future. That is a huge taboo in Vorinism; combine that with Jasnah's heresy, and the Ardentia might very well completely renounce the Kholin house. Who knows what kind of ramifications that could have. They could possibly back another highrprince to assume the throne, causing a civil war, but that is definitely a stretch for this type of conjecture. At the very least, it will increased tensions that have already been strained. Jasnah has kept things way too close to the chest. First of all, she's been bonded for five years. You don't think any of her family will be upset that she kept that secret from them for that long? Not only that, but had she been more open with what she was doing, and had included Navani, a good amount of trouble could have been saved. Jasnah was working on a project that she thought could mean the end of the world, and instead of trusting her mother (a renowned artifabrian, and brilliant mind) she trusts a teenage girl she has known for only a few months. It's been five years since we saw Jasnah emply assassins. She had clearly been hiring them already before this, and considering Mraize's words about Jasnah killing a number of their membership, I'd say it's safe to assume she's still been using them. Also, Shallan's involvement with Mraize all but gurantees that, at the very least, Shallan will find out about Jasnah's proclivities towards using assassins. Again, with this post, I was trying to illustrate all of the baggage and problems that the Radiants have that could possibly put stress on the membership, and the order itself. Outside force yes, but it causes internal stress. It seems highly likely Szeth is our Skybreaker. I don't want to get into another debate over Nalan and the current Skybreakers, so here's some WoB that seem to point in that direction. If you disagree, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this. I interpret what I've seen as Szeth becoming a skybreaker. I don't agree with your statement that he "lacks possible Radiant status," or that he won't be able to surgebind. You'll notice on the first quote, Brandon specifically uses the words "by a member of one of the orders." That's all I really want to say on the subject of his becoming or not becoming a Raidant. As for the internal conflict that would cause, I don't think I can really expand more than what I said the first time. That's kind of a big conflict all in itself. How can she help against the desolations when they don't know she exists? It's hard to "Unite them" when you can't even find all of them. What else does he need to send their way? You've already mentioned the everstorm and the legions of Parshendi who will be transformed. Where we disagree is that I don't think this is going to be a very big conflict for the Radiants right away. There are no Parshmen in Urithiru (except Rlain) so they have a fortress to weather the storm in, and a very defensible fortress at that. The bigger problem, as I see it, is uniting the team, and gaining the influence to be able to use their power. Sure, there's going to be a LOT of voidbringers, but as of this moment, that's a bigger problem for the rest of the world than it is for the Radiants. They have their powers, their castle, and Shardblades, which really make any threat that we've seen so far small change for them as individuals and as a team. (I mean, the conflict for Kaladin was fighting another surgebinder-not Voidbringers, and for Shallan it was a race against time-not Voidbringers.) As for why they need to be a team, other than the constant mantra of 'unite them' coming from Dalinar's point of view, it definitely has to happen because of this death rattle, which also seems like they will face the challenge of the Voidbringers after they have become a team.

With other people roaming around, that seems all the more reason to question all of the scouting parties. They are the ones best suited to eliminating suspects off the list. Adolin is in command of the exploration efforts entirely, not just the one partrol: Adolin will also be a big part of eliminating suspects, as he's in charge of where the scouting parties should be at what time. The responsibility ultimately falls on the Lighteyes, because it's their job to lead, so Adolin would take flak for this, even if he hadn't committed it, because it happened under his command.

Sadeas died in a part of the tower that was being explored. Kholin men are responsible for the exploration, and Adolin is in command of those men. Even if he were not a suspect, there's no way he wouldn't be questioned. He's the one that would be able to tell you scouting party assignments, who was where, which will be absolutely crucial in an investigation like this. Yes, Sadeas was well liked, that doesn't make people forget the fact that there is a murderer among them, or less wary of that fact. I don't see how they couldn't question one of theirs, or why it would be an insult to them. It wasn't an insult for Sadeas to question his men during the investigation regarding the hunt. All those men would be questioned whether or not they were suspects, merely because they were on the same level as Sadeas during the time of the murder! This seems ridiculous to me: "These soldiers might have seen something, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes by asking them legitimate questions relating to their duties and actions that date."

I find it hard to believe Dalinar would interfere with the investigation. With the man he is, and the relationship he had with Sadeas before Gavilar's death, he might head the investigation himself. I would think these "matters of principle" would not mean nearly as much once it's murder and not attempted murder. That kind of resistance would be a political nightmare. It would pretty much validate any lie Sadeas was telling, turn him into a martyr, and make it seem like a political assassination.

I talk to Adolin first, Adolin most likely will not lie, and say that he was in the area, and ran into them later on, but was alone for a small time. I question the soldiers one at a time when it comes time to question them, asking them all specific questions, and making sure the group wasn't allowed together to talk until they'd been questioned separately. Now the big question is, do any of them tell the truth, and more importantly, are all of them telling the same lie. All it would take is one soldier saying Adolin was with them the whole time, which contradicts Adolin's story, or two soldiers telling contradicting stories, and in present day, I'd say that would qualify enough to detain him on charges of second degree murder. He had the motive, the opportunity, and his alibi isn't holding up under scrutiny, with some attempts to hinder the investigation. That would only make his guilt more apparent, which is something Dalinar himself worried about in that scenario you referenced, and he wasn't even guilty.

Welcome brother.

At the very least it confirms Adolin was on the same level of the tower as Sadeas when he was murdered.

I think I'm being misunderstood a bit. I'm not trying to say it's not possible for the someone else to have killed Sadeas in such a way, but that it's very unlikely given the circumstances. If I was on the investigation for the murder, here's what I'm presented with: A Highprince, and Shardbearer is found dead, with a knife to the eye, seen moments before by both his wife, and soldiers. He's lying face up, knife sticking out of his eyeball. There's obvious trauma to the back of his head. On the wall, there is a strange scrape mark. So, first thing any investigator asks is: is there anyone who would have a reason to kill Highprince Sadeas? Random person: Sadeas was a scumbag, everyone hated him. I can tell you a thousand people who wanted to see the ol' scumbag die. Kinda wish I had done it myself truth be told. Me: Ok...is there anyone who has would want to more than others, or who has been vocal about it lately. Random Person: The whole Royal Family most likely hates him. They deserted them on the battlefield a bit back. Come to think about it, Prince Adolin just won a duel, it was great you should have been there. four on one! And a darkeyed spearman saved the Prince! But anyhow, after it ends, the King, see, he grants him a favor, anything he wants within the King's power. You know what that Adolin goes and does? Challenges Sadeas to a storming duel for the things he did to them. Brightlord Sadeas managed to sneak away thanks to the spearman saying them things about Brightlord Amaram. So I talk to Adolin, he claims he was scouting another part of the city, and points to a squad of scouters he was with at the time. I bring them in for questioning. Me: You were with Prince Adolin at the time of Sadeas's death. Soldier: We ran into Prince Adolin in another part of the tower sometime that night. It's hard to tell time in the city. Me: Did you notice anything unusual about the Prince? Solider: Well, come to think of it, his uniform was missing the cuffs. I wouldn't notice a thing like that normally, but Prince Adolin is normally perfectly presented. Me: I see. Did you happen to see if he had his sideknife on him? Solider: I didn't notice either way sir. So, at this point, there's a solid lead, and you can question Adolin again, and ask about the cuffs. Adolin has a Shardblade, he could have scraped the wall, but there's the mystery of Oathbringer. If it is found by someone, and they are caught with it, they'll tell them they found it on a terrace. A terrace with a window above it where the Prince was murdered. Someone ditched the Shardblade, hoping no one would find it. If they didn't care about the Blade, they'd leave it there for someone else to find, take, and be assumed the killer, or to be taken by the family. But Adolin might do something like that, if he thought it wouldn't be found. Or maybe no one finds it and it remains a mystery. Adolin is the best lead I'd have, and I'd sure think that the Shardbearer would have to be taken by surprise head on for that sort of fight to happen, and Adolin could do it. Combine that with the lack of a solid alibi, and the mussing cuffs. I'd certainly not be investigating anyone else.

I disagree: Also, Amaram is not regrouping with the Sons of Honor: Hard to not run into Dalinar's party when you're living in the same tower as them, and the only way in or out is by utilizing key members from Dalinar's party.

I'm willing to agree to disagree on this, but I do feel like I need to make a few more points before that. On the first point, I agree there's probably as many soldiers who are Adolin's equal in war experience, but Adolin still has advantages over them. First of all, he's more practiced in one on one battles, from his dueling experience. I admit the experience doesn't directly carry over, but fighting in a group against a group is much different than fighting just one opponent. Then, there's the fact that Adolin has been working with a full weapons master since he was 10. That's a huge advantage for anyone, but Adolin's experience is even better considering who that weapons master is. A weapons master that's had hundreds of years to perfect his craft, and is known for using any trick he can to achieve victory. That's where Adolin's advantage comes into play. It's be next to impossible to find any darkeyes who could match Adolin for that reason alone. Maybe even anyone on Roshar. Also, any darkeyes approaching Sadeas would be very suspicious. Shallan was stopped by guards before she could reach Amaram as a messenger. Even Lighteyes can't just get an audience with Sadeas whenever they please, it would have to be a chance encounter for a Lighteyes to ignore that sort of propriety: A messenger wouldn't have been able to find Sadeas in that spot either, so the story would be suspicious. The messenger would go to one of Sadeas's officers who would either take the message, or make the messenger wait for them, and Sadeas would most likely not take the message directly from the messenger on his own. He's a Highprince, and above such things. Propriety has its place in Alethi society. Edit: spelling. I need to just not iuse my phone on these lol.