kaellok

There's a WoB that Shardplate is an item with inherent Investiture, and that items like it are really hard to affect with Investiture-granted abilities (eg, lashing, metal-pulling, etc.) That would explain why many of them had gone off-target, missed, etc. As for how the Plate reacted when it was hit: I think an excellent question to ask is if this is how the Plate would react for anyone under similar circumstances, or if it's because of an interaction between the Plate and Adolin. In other words, were the cool peculiarities we saw unique to Plate being worn by (proto)Radiants, or the inherent properties of Plate itself? Automatically adjusting to protect his vision from bright light could be something done automatically (we have that technology today), or something that occurs as a prelude to summoning and dismissing the helm altogether at will. I'm very inclined to think that it's just a property of the Plate, but it would be interesting to see if there are any other mentions of what occurs near lightning or sudden flashes of bright light while wearing Plate.

Mistborn spoilers! There is a WoB that the Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor, not Odium. However, even though the appointing of Champions or what happens because of it is not regulated by the Oathpact, that doesn't mean that there may not be something else going on there that we are unaware of, though. That sentence was awkward. Let me try again. Even if Champions have nothing to do with the Oathpact, there may be something of a similar nature but on a greater Realmatic scale in play. Also, I had not, at all, thought of the Stormfather being able to appoint a Champion. That seems somewhat likely, even though his Champion would likely be vastly underpowered compared to Odium's (the Stormfather being a Splinter or Sliver of Honor, rather than the full thing). That could make for a very interesting climax, though.

@Maxal: Since several of your last posts have mentioned this, even if it's a small thing, the books never say that there are three Bondsmiths at a time maximum. The epigraph states that three is not an uncommon number for them, that they were always small in number, and that attempting to increase their number to the size of the other orders is (seditious? sorry, don't have the book in front of me anymore, and I forget the exact word used.) So, while I agree it is highly unlikely for there to be another Bondsmith in the First 5, in part because of other reasons you've stated, I just couldn't let this little bit go any more (even though it's relatively minor, and doesn't actually change anything.) As for the defeat of Odium, people all over the forums seem to assume that Honor will have a Champion to face Odium's Champion. I can't understand where they got this idea. Honor is dead. He will not be appointing any Champion. Cultivation, on the other hand, still seems to be alive and kicking. If a Champion is appointed by Odium (not a sure thing), and if a Champion is appointed to oppose them (also not a sure thing), then we should be looking at those with spren associated with Cultivation instead. Kaladin, and his rather close ties and references to honor, almost certainly count him out.

I think that Intent matters. Instead of having Windrunners stand around doing nothing, or otherwise betraying specific ideals, I think it was simple: They plunged their Blades into the ground, and renounced their oaths altogether. So, something similar to your anti-oath theory. Syl tells Kaladin, "I was only as dead as your oaths." It wasn't just his actions or inactions that were causing the problems, but the seriousness with which he considered them. Syl slowly dwindled in intelligence through WoR as he focused more and more on seeking his revenge against Elhokar. Thrusting their Blades into the ground was a pure, physical representation of their Intent to abandon their oaths and Ideals, and that was sufficient in the world of Roshar. Or maybe they said some Words, as well, a different kind of Ideal.

Maybe not the best time or place to mention this, but certainly not the worst, so I'll go ahead! My longest-running favorite author Elizabeth Moon (she became a favorite in my teens, and remains a Top 6 favorite still today) has an autistic son, and wrote an absolutely fantastic novel inspired partially by him called The Speed of Dark. It's a near-future sci-fi light type of novel, with the primary viewpoint of someone on the autism spectrum. It was really a very good read, and with all of the discussion re: Renarin, I was reminded of it. Also, out of all of the serious contenders for a Kaladin pairing, I favor Jasnah the most at this point. I think that one of the less-likely-at-this-point-in-time-but-maybe-in-the-future choices, like Laral or that one horse-trainer whose name I can never remember, could also be very good. Really, though, anyone but Shallan. I think Shaladin would be a good platonic relationship, like brother/sister. The similarities between Tien and Shallan are pretty strong, and the same with Kaladin and Heleran, so I think that would be interesting to explore and see more of.

Honestly, I reject the premise that it's "obvious" that Jasnah will travel to meet with Shallan. It really depends on where she actually is. Due to Urithiru's remote location, there's not necessarily a pressing need for her to be there when she could, for instance, be helping to deal with the uprising in Alethkar (or any of a thousand other things that need doing). Eventually they will meet again, sure, but I really do not see anything to be gained by her rushing there. Jasnah's absence has proven that others are as capable as she is, and so she can focus on other priorities and leave Urithiru in their capable hands. That there's likely to be tension between the two when they first reunite, however, seems fairly clear; at least until they determine what kind of relationship they still want from each other. I doubt it's going to work out well if either of them is wanting Jasnah to remain in the mentor role, but colleagues/friends will likely serve them both very well.

Presumably, the Heralds are stronger than a KR. They also spend an inordinate amount of time hanging out in Damnation, and are pretty broken as a result. This could easily help to explain a power difference between them and KR (and possibly explain why they go to Damnation between the Desolations, especially since WoB is that the Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor, and not including Odium at all.)

I don't have the books with me currently, so I apologize for lack of quotes or preciseness, but no matter! There's a few times from Dalinar's PoV where he mentally thinks about how weird and eerie it is to think about lending his Shards to someone else to use (in WoK, watching one of the duels before Adolin). At the very least, we know there is a very real bond between Blade and Bearer; I think that the 'tradition' of not loaning out your Shards is because of the bond. I imagine that there is a very real discomforting effect that occurs while a Shardblade you have bonded is used by someone else. As to how the opposing tradition, of the king/highprinces loaning out Blades and Plate occurred? It's all about Power. First, by having a set of Shards available to be loaned when necessary, it reinforces the status and power of the king or highprince--they not only have the power granted by Shards, but they have so much that it gives the perception they are not afraid of losing the Shards. Second, it places a check on the power of Shardbearers that might otherwise challenge that of the king or highprince; if a non-Shardbearer is able to duel them and win, then the highprince/king can remain out of the affair altogether, risking little but reaping the rewards. At the same time, it helps to regulate who, when, where, and how such challenges can occur (ex. only letting lighteyes make challenges, but not darkeyes). Finally, especially with the possibility of permanently awarding the Shards on someone worthy, an incredibly helpful myth is perpetuated; if you are the best, you get Shards, rank, and all that goes with it. So don't become disgruntled with life, just become a better warrior and you will be rewarded. It's a very clever system that reinforces the power inherent within the rank, while also acting as a way to keep those of lower rank from banding together to overthrow them. Think of Sadeas's bridges; they served a very useful function in getting his army to the plateau faster, but their real goal was to be an incredibly visible target. Really, the King's Shards are just that, but politically, rather than militarily.

The future is not absolute, fixed in place. It is malleable, and changes based on changes people make. Mistborn burning atium see a shadow of this, and react, in order to change it once again. It's strongly theorized in a substantial number of areas that tackle visions of the future that the mere act of looking into the future changes it. So, Renarin seeing into the future and saying something, anything other than what he did in the future could change the course of events from one of damnation to salvation. Alternatively, perhaps he did see them all living, but he saw that he had to scream "We're all going to die!" first, and he feared that doing anything different from what he saw would change the future from one of salvation into damnation. Or maybe he cannot control himself, his actions, his voice, anything while under the grip of one of his visions, and so whatever he says or doesn't say should not be held against him. Or maybe the visions he sees can be warped and affected by Odium, so he's seeing the future Odium wants. Oh, and he didn't know until right around exactly that point that he was actually seeing the future, and not just going crazy. Literal crazy. Let's see how you react when you're seeing the end of everything happen--about 2 minutes before everyone else. When you know that foreseeing is impossible, and if not impossible, then also heretical and will damnation your soul for all eternity. Not really the best circumstances to learn how to handle a gift in a beneficial way. Really, though, we just don't know enough about how seeing the future works in SA to do more than speculate wildly with little to no textual evidence to back it up.

Welcome to the forums, Zea mays! I have to ask, at the risk of derailing the thread--what is it they say about the leopard?

There's a few threads where one character or another, and how Brandon handled them, is specifically mentioned. I know of a couple different Kaladin threads I've participated in where I've railed against him in WoR (because reasons that don't matter here) while acknowledging (sometimes sooner than others) how realistic a portrayal it is. Or another thread where I get on a soapbox and declare how awesome he did with Shallan (because he did. For real. Like, seriously, just an amazing job). Or a couple different threads where people have pointed out Relarin, and exactly how and why he's awesome (even though when reading the books originally I had literally no opinion on him. The only character I had no opinion on, until some of the posts pointed out how subtly it was shown what a strong badass he really is.) So, kudos to bringing a thread together to acknowledge all at once, in one place. It's about time someone did it!

You're on! I'll be seriously shocked and amazed if Sanderson is able to make me actually like Szeth in SA3, though. I'm not big on the whole redemption story in general, though, and understanding his thought process won't make his actions in WoK and WoR any less heinous and terrible.

Oh, I hate Szeth. But he's a very interesting character, and I kind of love how much I hate him. Storming Sanderson makes it hard to not care a great deal (whether good or ill) about his characters, particularly in SA. Also, I haven't yet seen that a large part of the storytelling reason why we see Ym is so that we will feel true fear for Lift. When Jasnah was killed, I did not believe it (perhaps I just never got out of the denial stage of grief). Lift, though, I liked her. And that shadowy monster had already killed a kindly old man not that long ago, and now here he is again! Up until the point Lift actually lived, I just kept imagining the many terrible, horrible, awful ways she was going to be killed--and hating it. The end...when, and how, she managed to live--I literally whooped in joy (one of, as I recall, four times I did that in WoR.) So, really, from a storytelling perspective, that's why Sanderson introduced a Surgebinder just to kill him.

Snip! Only responding to this, as I think you misunderstood what I meant: Kal killed Syl. It doesn't matter how much growth he shows after. It doesn't matter that she comes back because of that growth. He could say the Fourth Ideal and suddenly start farting Shardplate, and it wouldn't matter. He loved hate so much that he killed the person who saved his life. While I can still enjoy him as a character, and I can enjoy his arc more now than I did initially, there is literally nothing that he can do to change that fact. He could single-handedly defeat Odium, and reforge the 16 Shards into Adonalsium, and it wouldn't still not change that fact. I'm definitely substantially more like Shallan than Kaladin (surprisingly similar, really, and for many reasons think Sanderson's done an amazing job portraying her well, because of those similarities). I'm sorry you deal with depression; you aren't alone. I deal with it by presenting a different, happier self to the world because that's the person I'd like to be. I get when that doesn't work, too, and so you just stay at home closeted in a pile of blankets all day instead and read a good book. As much as I love Sanderson as an author (and he's my favorite living author), he could have written Kal's arc in a way that didn't feel like an exact, step-for-step retread of what had gone before by exploring different concepts that relate to what he was going through. The Parshendi would have been perfect for this; there was a lead-in to that very facet at the end of WoK, he turned out to have one in Bridge Four, and the issue was very tangentially approached, but no time was spent exploring that dynamic at all. The lost opportunities to explore his story arc in a way that was relatable and realistic but also entertaining to read is my problem with his story arc. Oh, and he killed Syl. He can never be my favorite character again, because of that.

Welcome to the forums! Here have a free cookie upvote. And now I move on to the part where I tear holes in your plan, because that's what I'm good at. Building or creating something is hard, but finding what's wrong with it is easy--and I'm lazy. First! The Nightwatcher gives you what she wants, not necessarily what you ask for. I recall there being a point in WoK (sorry, don't have my books at the moment), in an interlude, where someone specifically mentions that it doesn't matter how carefully you phrase your question, you get what she feels like giving you, boon and curse, and be done. So it doesn't really matter what he asked for, it wouldn't be selective based on the wording (ie, the emphasis on "How do I save the world?" wouldn't matter. Second! What about when Mr T is of average intelligence? In Mr T's Interlude we are told not to underestimate the intelligence of the average person, and at the very end Hoid tells us that salvation will be found in the hearts of men (implying the hearts of average men, not just a few special heroes). So, what does average Mr T think about it all? He should be smart enough to see what is happening (and he does, to a limited degree, otherwise Jah Keved would never have fallen to him), and compassionate enough to care (and again, he does, even though it pains him)--but he keeps following through anyway. I forget where I was going with this bit, but it sure seemed important when I started so I'm leaving it in! Finally! I disagree fundamentally that the Nightwatcher is Lawful Neutral. Assuming, of course, that the Nightwatcher is related to Cultivation (and Lift's Interlude really provides strong evidence for that, I would say) then she is most definitely Chaotic. What flavor of Chaos she subscribes to is clearly unknown, but remember--one time she gave a man a bunch of bolts of silk so that he could feed his family, and in return made him see everything upside down. That sort of capriciousness simply can't be found in a creature of Order, I tell you! But still, very interesting idea, with some merit to it.

I think that actually proves his point? ie, no one uses archery because it's not important to them; early Samurai emphasized horseback archery; hence, they aren't based off of early Samurai traditions.

I'm pretty sure I remember there being mention of a draft of WoR that referred to Zahel as Vasher, from way back in 2006. The Name of the Wind was first published in 2007. However, knowing that Brandon really enjoys Rothfuss's work, I certainly wouldn't say that this scene wasn't included as a wink towards Rothfuss. Or it could be one of those weird coincidences, like SA Book 3 and Kingkiller Book 3 having virtually the same planned title, and a race between the two authors to who can get theirs to print first and claim the prize (of most awesomest title ever).

Edged weapons, a commander directing them, and a numbers advantage puts the advantage to the Lifeless, I'd say. The ME seemed differently dangerous than, say, a warg or whitespine--but not really more dangerous

Without reading a lot of Feaher's posts, I don't know that I would have really developed an opinion about Renarin one way or another. Re-reading scenes and parts including him through the lens they provided really helped to change that. Honestly, I think that the climax scenes were really--I don't want to say bad. They seemed off, though. From Kaladin's fight with Szeth to Shallan's attitude in the teleporter (and turning the climax of Shallan's book into Kaladin flying through a Highstorm) just all didn't quite fit right to me. Despite my complaints, I love Sanderson as an author and I think WoR is his best-written novel yet (and each book he writes seems to be better than the one before it). Part of that is why I'm so willing to give Renarin benefit of the doubt (and Kaladin, too, much as I gripe about him); I trust that it will be made clear, and in a poignant and meaningful way, in the future.

Syl made a pretty big deal out of Kaladin touching her hand before he leveled up; to me, this implies that touch is required. It would also help tamp down on near-ludicrous amount of destructive power that would otherwise be possible ("Turn into a really long and thin rope and fly through the enemy army that is still miles away while I take a nap!")

Added numbers after some snips to your post to make it easier to respond! 1. The screaming of the blade was bad enough to cause a seasoned, veteran warrior to run away screaming himself. He abandoned a fight that directly led to the loss of some of the most valuable possessions anyone can have in the world. For Renarin to stay in the fight while wielding his own blade, hearing that screaming for more than a bare second or two, is incredible. To downplay this as you have is to unfairly downplay Renarin's strength, and I strongly urge you to re-think this. 2. This is also likely the point where Renarin's heretical visions of the future were beginning to come true, forcing him to deal with the fact that his power is blasphemous; oh, yeah, and he knows exactly what they're facing and how impossible it is to stop it. Ignorant people are sometimes capable of amazing things, because they don't know that they can't do something. Kaladin didn't know that he couldn't heal his arm after being cut by a Shardblade, but he did it anyway. Renarin knows (or thinks he knows) what is and is not possible, and this limits his views of his options. Also, his brain works just bit differently than a normal one would, so his reactions, especially in a significantly traumatic and unique situation, aren't necessarily going to be the right ones. Look to everyone else in the area being equally useless, too; he is hardly alone, but he has arguably the greatest excuse. 3. Shallan wasn't broken during the timeline of WoK or WoR; it's likely that Renarin wasn't, either. We've seen barely anything of him as a character, so judging him based on the last 4 months of his life is pretty damnation ludicrous. Given Alethi society, I would be surprised if he hadn't been exposed to the type of emotional trauma that could break a soul. I mean, honestly; we know Dalinar is a good person now, but that he wasn't a good person several years ago. How much of Dalinar's caring and kindness in WoK and WoR is to make up for being "Worst Father Ever" to Renarin growing up? (Pure speculation on my part, obviously, but it seems to fit.) 4. People want to do what is expected of them, not just what they are best at. Societal pressure that way is huge. It doesn't even matter what that 'thing' may be: skinny, famous, a doctor, a warrior. Alethi males are warriors, and light-eyed Alethi males are leaders. Ardents, on the other hand, are property. Even if the ardentia would make best use of his talents, I want you to tell your son that he's only good to be another man's property. No. Just no. Not while there's the possibility of another option. Renarin is rather far from my favorite character, but he's really done nothing to justify your rants

I've mentioned all of my complaints regarding Kaladin in fairly great detail before, so I'll keep this as brief as I can. Note that I agree that the portrayal of Kaladin in WoR may be realistic, but it doesn't make him more sympathetic or enjoyable to read. There is an immediate backslide of Kaladin at the end of WoK to Kaladin at the beginning of WoR in terms of his attitude. His character arc in WoR is damnation close to identical to his character arc in WoK (the scenery on the path is different, and maybe he takes a couple different branches along the way, but reading from WoK to WoR straight through it was very super obvious noticeable and more importantly annoying). He killed Syl because of his desire to hold onto his hate. He is a hypocrite, in that he judges people based on eye color to at least the same amount as anyone else in the room with him. In WoK, Kaladin's viewpoint writing was the right balance to keep me interested in him, rooting for him, empathizing with him because of similar struggles we have gone through; he was my second favorite character in the book (Syl, of course, being most favorite), the same with most people. WoR didn't have the same type of balance. On at least four occasions, rather than stay up reading later into the night, I saw it was a Kaladin chapter and closed the book to sleep. I think that Sanderson could (should) have written his character arc differently than Spider Man 3. Did I mention that Kaladin killed Syl because he loved hate too much!? Just because he later had an incredibly well-written redeeming scene where he saves Elhokar and brings Syl back doesn't change that bit--not even a little.

Edgedancers may not be as formidable in combat as, say, a Windrunner--but don't let that leave you thinking that they're less effective. It's easy as hell to think that, in the Army, it's all about the Infantry, the Tanks, the Artillery, and the Helicopter Gunships--but you're leaving out the Medics. That's what the Edgedancers are in the KR. Their control of friction grants them a very special kind of mobility to get to the wounded, and either get them to the rear or heal them where they are. Pair an Edgedancer with one of the KR with Teleportation, and you've potentially turned a rout (worst outcome of a battle other than "literally everyone died") into an organized retreat. Even with modern weaponry, death is rarely instant, and with an Edgedancer you can probably get damnation close to "a soldier saved today is a soldier that can fight tomorrow." Thus, allowing you to use drastically different strategies with your army than otherwise. And I see Truthwatchers as being the Scouts: relaying important information in time for the commander to be able to do a damnation thing about it. They should basically be perfect for this role, honestly; between their illusions letting them sneak into enemy camps to spy on them to precognitive abilities giving (even just occasional) glimpses of the future, the information they can relay--to a commander and an army capable of acting on it--will have more effect than a single Windrunner could dream of.

The only problems I saw in dealing with the Windfinders were from idiots thinking that they were smart. You know, the gray Ajah sister Rand left in charge (Merana?), Elayne, and Nynaeve. People who all, at the outset, said "This is what we want, and we are willing to pay any price to get it." As long as you understand basic negotiation, you should be able to get a more favorable outcome than them.

Possible, but there's a few problems that I think need to be addressed. 1. The black orb, as far as we know, hasn't actually done anything. 1a. If the black orb contains one of the Unmade, such as Nergaoul (responsible for the Thrill), then he has had it longer than he's been in contact with the Parshendi. At the very least, the Thrill was felt by Sadeas during the Alethi consolidation and unification, which occurred before they knew the Parshendi existed. 1b. Unless you are suggesting that Venli and Gavilar met in secret long before anyone else even knew the Parshendi existed, and this is the reason for his interest in them as a group. There is literally no evidence for this, but seems a possible explanation. 2. The various secret societies that Gavilar was working with had their own information, sometimes surprisingly accurate. It's at least as plausible that he got the orb from one of them, rather than the Parshendi. 3. The prologue seems to me as if Gavilar is concerned with making sure the Parshendi don't get the orb. If this is the case, why would Venli have given away the orb in the first place, only to try and get it back later? I don't think that any of these can be answered without more information. Odium playing an active role in the long game is very interesting, though, and certainly in keeping with what we know about the Cosmere as a whole. Setting up the war between the Alethi and the Parshendi right when Alethkar is on the verge of being truly unified, well--I'd not be surprised if Odium was behind that. And that Venli was corrupted long before the first scenes with Eshonai.