kaellok

Snipped most, bolded what is relevant. Why do we need to understand more before we judge him? We know that he has murdered innocent people in order to further his own goals and plans. We don't really need to know what those goals or plans are to judge him. From what I recall, he even put a lot of care and thought into the action before doing so, so it's not like he thought it was something as simple as eating breakfast or getting dressed for the day. If you mean that we need to know more before we judge him in the way that Moogle is, well, that I can agree with--but we've had all we needed to know just in WoK about how he's foolish, wrong-headed, and evil. Sometimes evil actions are required, but Mr. T at least makes a case for it and doesn't shy away from the reality of their repugnance (or necessity as he sees it); Amaram seems to almost think that the actions are not evil if they are necessary (for his plans). That, more than anything, is the difference between the two, and why one is an interesting villain and the other is rather boring and flat.

We don't necessarily see any of this in screen ourselves, but we do see Dalinar talking about how he is a good, just, honorable person. We see Kaladin as a child practically worshipping him for being good, just, and honorable. You can't spread a lie that far around the land and have it work that effectively without there being a decent amount of truth to it. And, just because we don't ever see him doing good things doesn't mean he doesn't do them--it just means we're supposed to not like the guy. I mean, really, he's a pretty terrible person, as well as a hypocrite.

Limiting my response, in part to keep this from becoming a Szeth thread. Basically, we see from Szeth's PoV that he knows what he is doing is evil and wrong, but he that doesn't stop him. He breaks the law (murder is against the law in, at least, Alethkar, Jah Keved, and that one nation Lift is in whose name I can never remember, but that never stops him) of other nations rather than breaking the one of his own. There is a certain strength in that, but Szeth also very much does not seem to think that what he is doing is right and/or honorable, and so it can hardly be seen as moral. He is the crying assassin, who weeps as he slays his victims. He is the Assassin in White, who has instilled such dread in some nations that entire governments shut down. And he hates himself for what he's done. I don't see how you can hate yourself for your actions and still see them as right, just, honorable, or moral. Sure, sometimes you only have the choice between two bad options--but, usually in those cases you don't murder hundreds just to avoid breaking a law or tradition. The hard choice would have been for Szeth to do the right thing--not to keep to just upholding one law of the Shin over everything else. Hell, after the first fight with Kaladin, he even had sufficient proof or evidence of vindication, but he chose to believe Mr T's lie (Szeth's mental state notwithstanding, that was still the easy choice, to just go with what someone else tells him, rather than thinking for himself). Compared with this, Elhokar is very much a right honorable chap. Even though he acts without thinking, that can be fixed by teaching him how to think. He eventually seems to see that he's made mistakes, and by the end of WoR it's clear (to me) that he's willing to actually change. Szeth, on the other hand, knows exactly how terrible each thing he is doing--but does it anyway, just because it's easier than going against what his people said. I disagree, and think you have it backwards. By definition, all Orders will be Honorable, right? They all have spren that are at least partly from Honor right? (even if some are mixed Cultivation). But they don't have to be inspirational, even though I very much think that that was a great part of the traditional role of Radiants. I also very much disagree that Lightweavers have little honor in them. This thought seems to be because lying and deception is okay to them, which is understandable; but look at the specific actions they take. Even while lying, Shallan isn't needlessly placing others in harm's way. She acts in ways that could endanger herself to help protect others (such as the woman whose identity she stole to sneak into Amaram's room), and keeps her word when given (to the deserters) even though she had no reason to do so. Hell, she even keeps her word to Sebariel about earning every one of the spheres she's charging him based on an agreement that she made up on the spot. The Order I struggle to see Honor in the most is the Skybreakers, especially if their Ideal really is "I will obey the law above all else." If the law is dishonorable, then upholding it would be, too, right? And yet, would they be honorable for upholding the law if they were sworn to do so? It's all a bit maddening.

I heartily agree with this in particular. It would make a lot more sense if the axes are not paired with Shards, but rather the Intents of the Shards. (I've done some thought experiments as to other ways Shards could have formed from Adonalsium, because it's interesting--but stopped, because it's largely a fruitless task with the limited knowledge we have.) I'm not sure that I agree with the overall theory, but if so I think it would have to be based off of the Intents/Attributes what-have-you as you've described.

Well, yes. Except that there is no screaming from 'dead' Plate, and the spren have no problems with it. This implies that it is something other than just a variation on the Sprenblade transformation.

Gavilar was seeing visions, presumably from the Stormfather. Possibly from Odium. Maybe some other source entirely. For some reason I find it incredibly unlikely that the Stormfather would Bond with someone who is working to bring about a Desolation (which his actions seemed to support, although for specific reasons that weren't, themselves, necessarily evil.) Nalan would only have had some involvement if he had any clue what Gavilar was about, though; and I still say that since Gavilar and Amaram wanted a return of the Desolation so that there would be Heralds and a return to power of Vorinism that Nalan and co. could have solved that whole problem by revealing themselves. Because the Heralds are supposed to not interfere, according to an agreement they made between themselves when they broke the Oathpact, I don't think that inaction in general is significant. That would imply a level of significance to an increasingly large number of events, which have nothing to do with anything, and should apply separately to each of the nine Heralds that remained on Roshar. ie, if Nalan acts but Jezrien does not, there is a different meaning versus both of them acting versus both them remaining inactive versus Jezrien acting and Nalan remaining inactive. I realize that this argument is pedantic on my part, since a good argument can be made that in this specific incident action or inaction is significant, but that's the way I am (and I freely acknowledge that you make a good point with their inaction being at least interesting, if not significant.) And now I realize that I'm not adding much to anything at this point, I think. If we ever find out how Szeth's Oathstone came to be possessed by the Parshendi, I think we'll be incredibly close to laying this to rest one way or the other (even without any other additional information).

Welcome to the forums! Have an up-vote. Right, so, had a "duh!" moment right before I hit post, causing me to re-write this thing. Let's take a look at that quote again! So, usually, I would analyze a paragraph in the order of the sentences appear, since they present a shared thought that they explore. I'm not going to do that this time, though. The third sentence is simple enough: the old oaths are the Ideals of the Radiants, being spoken again. Rather unambiguous. The second sentence is the interesting bit. At first, I was reading it as Stormlight sticking to the faces of the Bridgemen, indicating that they would become Kaladin's Squires. We see traces of this in WoK, and even more by the end of WoR. But then I remembered--the Parshendi wear gems infused with Stormlight in their beards. This is why you thought it 'clearly' referred to the Parshendi, and I believe that you are correct. The first sentence refers to friends both before and behind. This could refer to physical distance, as in the Bridgemen in front of him as well as behind him. That interpretation clearly fits well. It could also refer to time, so, friends in the past and friends in the future. I actually think that both interpretations (my original, as well as your parsing) are correct. Two meanings, both correct, with one sentence! The kind of simple, elegant writing that makes me happy. tl;dr: I thought you were wrong, then I remembered what I was forgetting, and so I think you're right.

What about Shallan Kohlin?

Szeth also thought that wounds from a Shardblade couldn't be healed. Although, the very limited view we have of the Heralds in WoK doesn't show them wearing Plate; it's quite possible that the way Honorblades work actually would interfere with Lashing, while not with that of Radiants. ie, if an Honorblade is like Nightblood and actively consumes Investiture while in use, then that would make using Shardplate a bit problematic.

I think that you are spot on that the two people talking earlier had a chance to take the Blade from Szeth, or stop him, or something, but deliberately chose not to do so. We don't know how far in the past this was; it may have been a day prior when they first met the Parshendi and their attendant. This does not seem to me to indicate that they played a hand in making sure he got the weapon. However, I abundantly disagree with your second-last sentence; the quote "What we did was wrong" is clearly about letting Szeth keep the blade. The absolute most that their involvement in the assassination seems to be is a complete and utter noninterference. What we have seen so far really doesn't seem to support more than that (and it's a little bit of a stretch to assume they even had that much involvement.) Further, to the main point, Gavilar wasn't trying to cause a Desolation, so much as he wanted the Heralds to return--and believed that only a Desolation would do that. Nalan could have solved that problem with one sit-down conversation, without having to rely upon subterfuge, murder, sneakery, plots, counterplots, hidden societies, and a dedicated team of minions to carry out his vigilante justice upon the world.

I would also be hesitant to say that one of the Ideals grants a Radiant a Ryshadium, although the Ryshadium are closely linked to the Radiants. Those are the 3 Words of Brandon that I could find regarding Ryshadium. But, we also have in-text knowledge from Dalinar and Adolin about their incredible intelligence, and how the Ryshadium themselves choose their riders. (I mean, at one point Dalinar is trying to convince his Ryshadium that he deserves the extra-yummy food--and it looks that actual persuasion is both required and successful.) So, we know that it's possible to 'bond' a Ryshadium without being a Radiant, which makes it unlikely to be a 'perk' of progressing along the path of a Radiant. On the other hand, there's investiture involved with them, we don't know much about them, and Sanderson thinks that a steed is as important as a sword and armor for knights. Well, we know a bit about the differences between Sprenblades and Shardblades. It's possible that there will be a similar magnitude of difference between 'active' Shardplate worn by Radiants and the 'inactive' worn by just anyone, as well as Ryshadium with normal rider vs. Ryshadium with a Radiant. That level of power escalation is a bit disconcerting to think about, though, at least as far as what it means and has implications for.

Regarding Kaladin's character in WoR vs WoK, Brandon has said that the anger and whatnot that Kaladin shows was always there before (and we see glimmers of it in WoK) but he was focused on other priorities and so it wasn't as clear. However, in WoR, his men are in a basically good place with basically good leaders, and so he can focus all of his worry and concerns into being a prejudiced jerk. I, too, had a lot of problems with Kaladin as a character initially (just see my first posts here on 17th Shard forums if you doubt!--but please let those threads stay dead, lol), but I've at least come to understand the reasoning behind them--which goes a long ways towards making me want to reread the book. (I don't do rereads as often as some people, as I tend to have a very good memory of books I've read, but on books I particularly enjoy I'll read again every year or two.) While I sort of liked Shallan in WoK, I really enjoyed her in WoR. Actually, aside from Kaladin's character, I enjoyed everything in WoR more than WoK--and I loved WoK. I have plenty of faith waiting for Book 3 that it will 'fix' the problems I had with Kaladin (which is already starting to happen by the end of WoR) and let them stay mostly fixed, so that he can deal with other problems instead. Since Kaladin has been 'outed' as a Radiant now, too, I think that his fights will be more on the scale and par with what you were expecting. In WoK, he had a relatively small spotlight on him, while trying to remain hidden; in WoR, he's got a huge spotlight, with bigger/better enemies, while still trying to remain hidden.

I was posting a reply on my phone, instead computer like normal, and it was hard enough to get everything mostly right. After I'd already deleted part of the quote, it was just too much work to add it back in lol. Regarding this, I just see it as someone who has grown up in the desert is going to be better fighting in the desert than someone who didn't. There are peculiarities to every environment, and I imagine Kaladin being more in tune with those of the sky and wind than Szeth is. Also, I can definitely buy Kaladin and Szeth both not being nearly as skilled with their weapons as they seem; Surgebinding powers grant them a lot of leeway to be both poorly skilled, but so fast/powerful it doesn't matter. I mean, there's always at least two ways to open a locked door--one is to pick the lock, and another is to break the door down. Both can be equally effective, but...

Snippy snip snip snip! (Including some pieces of pertinent argumentation, which changes the overall flow of information, but I wanted to shorten the post.) Kaladin wasn't fighting with a Sword most of the time, though; remember Syl's famous "Oh, that's right, you probably would feel better if I were a Shardmissile, wouldn't you?" line. Actually, even if I'm remembering where that happened wrong, this only serves to reinforce just how bad Szeth actually is in a duel. I just realized that I snipped parts of your post here that would be super relevant, but I'm too lazy to add them back in. Readers should know that they exist! Just scroll up! Here's why even a relatively unskilled Shardbearer would be able to fight a supremely skilled Shardbearer to a pause or temporary standstill: because one mistake is death. Shards share some similar aspects to lightsabers (wow, say that three times fast!) Just waving one around wildly is enough to panic most people, and cause all the others to approach with care and deliberation. If Szeth were actually as skilled with a Blade, and Kaladin not, then Szeth should have been able to at least put up a fight. Instead, it was mostly just Kaladin showing what a Sprenblade can do for the benefit of the readers. About the quote during their duel: I seem to be in the minority of posters, as I don't interpret it quite so literally. I don't think that it means that Kaladin has been Surgebinding since his childhood; just that he's always been at home in the sky and in the heights. The wind and sky call to him, and always have. Remember all the times that he spent on top of the roof of his home as a child? He's comfortable in the sky, naturally, in a way that Szeth and others have to learn. It's not second-nature to him, it is nature. By contrast, Kaladin has a lot of problems running along the sides of walls, while Szeth seems very comfortable there. To answer Zea Mays on why Nalan isn't interfering with our main Radiants: the laws apply differently to lighteyes in Alethi and Jah Keved culture. This would largely absolve them of any guilt. Beyond that, in the case of Shallan, there's exceptionally good cause to show it was self defense, or defense of others. Regarding Jasnah, Shallan herself decides during her investigations that what Jasnah did was legally correct. And being a slave, with absolutely no notoriety and mostly lost and forgotten by all but his immediate masters, Kaladin simply hadn't done anything to attract notice. This, of course, has changed now--but so too has his eye color, which will likely render any guilty finding of petty theft to be moot.

I just always assumed it was chowder. From New Jersey.

Done. But, since you are now a tiny, subatomic particle that acts in ways that are somewhat bizarre and unexplained by science, you are not able to interact with the world or rest of the universe in any way, shape or form--it is merely a movie that you can watch. I wish I were a Sliver.

First, I definitely don't disagree with anything you are saying. At all. At least in how it applies on Roshar. However, I think that Sigzil's group's method of trying to force Radianthood at least somewhat resembles what was done on Scadrial to make people Snap. Sure, being beaten within an inch of your life isn't quite the same thing as jumping to your death off of a cliff, but there are certain parallels. We also know that Worldhoppers have visited Roshar. Combine the two, and it's not completely out of the question that a few stories from one of these Worldhoppers got heard by Sigzil's group and horribly misheard or misremembered a few centuries ago, and further mangled through time.

Snipped out bits to try and shorten this post; overall meaning is still preserved. That out of the way, I see you seem to be fairly new to the forums, so welcome! You've made a couple of well-reasoned posts, that I happen to disagree with, at least partially. I've numbered them while quoting your post, to make it easier to explain in mine. 1. Szeth is still responsible for his own crimes. There is nothing to suggest that murder isn't a crime in Shinovar, so if he commits murder there he should still be subject to their law. Being Truthless is, itself, a punishment for his supposed lies (as Moogle mentioned in previous post); this does not absolve him of any crimes he commits at the command of others, though. 2 Talking about morality can quickly get into ground that is rather murky. A number of philosophers over the years have tried to show morality, codes of ethics, correct ways to live, etc. that are not at all based on the emotions of humans. Some have been more successful than others, but that's beside the point. Morals are, boiled down, simply a code of what is right and wrong that a person lives by. It seems likely that Nalan lives by a Law (which may be the same or different than laws of various lands he walks through, but certainly incorporates them), and that Law is his morality. A quibbling point, to be sure, but just the kind of thing that forces me to respond. I can be pedantic like that. 3. As I alluded to in point 2, all we know is that Nalan follows the law of the land he is in while undertaking his objectives. He could very easily be following a Law that demands he also follow laws of wherever he is. In fact, that's the only way that I can think of a reason why he would go to such lengths to legally kill Lift, while willingly using Szeth as a tool, and seeming to forgive his many, many murders across virtually all nations--including the same one Lift was in whose name I now forget. In fact, as I type this, I am becoming more and more convinced that this must be the case. Otherwise, he's simply an illogical, nonsensical lunatic.

Brent Weeks is also good for some ridiculous over-the-top fun reading. At first, you might think, "Man, this is just ridiculous, no way!" But if you keep reading, it just gets more and more ridiculous, until it cycles all the way around (who even knew that it was a cycle? I didn't, and I invented the gauge!)

Fixed.

Probably something similar to this green room.

Hoid was so busy hiding from other people that he forgot to hide from me. Despite this, he's still been fairly elusive to track down at times, as he is quite wily and seems to be whenever he wants, which is very annoying. And a much more useful skill than being wherever he wants. I recently finished my first reread of Elantris (ever. It was my least favorite Sanderson novel, and I've reread everything else at least once) and realized just how much I missed the first time through. The thing is literally dripping with references to Devotion and Dominion, as well as the Three Realms (Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual). It's a little bit insane just deep and good his worst work is, and how well it fits within everything else.

I'm not sure I follow. Special relativity would apply if you're talking about, say, an immortal feruchemist trying to store speed for a few thousand years and then trying to run faster than the speed of light--just like it would apply to any system of conventional travel (ie, moving one foot takes you one foot, moving one mile takes you one mile, etc.) There's nothing that we've seen so far that I'm aware of to indicate a maximum speed that a feruchemist could run that is dependent on the magic system, and not physics itself. The energy loss seems to be due to similarities of thermodynamics, and that there is no 100% energy transfer possible. Because it's magic, instead of modern day engines or generators, the efficiency ratio is just really, really high and so it's hard to notice until you get into the incredible amounts of stored energy for conversion. (I realize my physics may be a little bit wobbly, but I'm pretty sure my explanations are essentially correct. Also, apologies if I misunderstand what you mean by your post.)

Sanderson has said that he's tried to keep the physics in his magic system as much as possible. I think this means that we can assume that basic laws of thermodynamics apply, and so there won't be a truly 'perfect' transfer of energy; there's always going to be some leakage. Nothing at all to indicate that swearing more oaths won't decrease the leakage though; I actually really like the theory, even if I don't buy into it. It's got that "Wow! That makes total sense, but I would have never considered it!" appeal.

No. I'm saying that with a lack of negativity from Hoid, combined with lots of positive from other characters, is a strong point in favor of his potential. We do, certainly, seem to have a differing viewpoint on Hoid, as I feel the WoB we're both relating to says something quite different than your interpretation. There are really only three general 'failures' that Elhokar demonstrates on-screen. One, being an immature, drunken lout--like the entirety of the Alethi elite, save the Kholinars. Two, the imprisoning of Moash's parents leading to their deaths (Remember that the lack of punishment for Roshone is entirely Dalinar's doing as I recall). Three, the lawful (if unjust) imprisoning of Kaladin. We actually have greater examples of his wife's abuses of power than his own--after all, she's hosting lavish balls and wasting food when the people are starving. What failures, exactly, does he need to be working so hard at fixing? A Skybreaker would certainly, 100% disagree with you--the Law applies to everyone, equally, period. Special exceptions for people that you happen to like doesn't seem to be very Radiant-like. Hell, half of Kaladin's problems in WoR are because he likes Moash, and Moash wants to commit murder, so Kaladin refuses to do anything about it. That's fine--other characters, in-book, that have dealings with Elhokar on a daily basis do. Some spren did, as well. In order for there to be a bond, you have to attract a spren; you can only attract a spren by acting in ways that interest them. You can't attract creative spren (creation spren? I forget now) by riding horses, and you don't attract painspren by drawing flowers. You would attract an Honorspren by wanting to protect those who cannot protect themselves, but you would push them away by actively planning to murder an innocent. Something that Elhokar did attracted spren's notice. We can debate what it was, or why, but that fact will remain. Dalinar is the one who argues that Elhokar held their people together as a nation. Whether he has authority over them that is respected is a completely separate matter. But the Dustbringers were feared; feared in the much the same way that the armies of the enemy bent on the utter annihilation of the planet were feared. That's very telling. Radiants don't have to be inspiring. Radiants don't have to be good. They don't have to inspire hope and good will and happy fuzzy thoughts in others. Some of them do; some of them do so very well. The fact that Elhokar is definitely not currently fit to be on of the Orders we're aware of means exactly nothing. The huge lack of screen-time with Elhokar means that we haven't seen much of him at all, which is why I rely on the opinions of characters in the books. Is he petty? Sure. Drunk? Yup. Does he deliberately do evil or bad things without regard of the consequences? No, not even a little bit. He's just an immature brat that needs to grow up, but never did before because bad parents didn't force him to do so. Even the little that we've seen of him shows that he is more than capable of this change, and getting him around people that don't give a fig about his rank will do him tremendous good. Coincidentally, that's just where he happens to be right now--in the loving company of Lopen's family. Szeth, on the other hand, knowingly did evil just because it was easier. He broke laws in order to keep to tradition, and destabilized much of the world in doing so. Yet, you seem okay with him being a Radiant but not Elhokar. This...this is the biggest reason why I keep coming back to the discussion. In every, single, dimension possible, Elhokar has the superior moral fiber to Szeth, and demonstrates better judgment. Regardless, it's always nice having discussions with you, because you tend to feel strongly, back up your points with evidence, and I've seen you change your opinion a few times when convinced that you were wrong. I don't think it's going to happen this time, though, which is fine