kaellok

I voted dislike. I actively hate Szeth, and I enjoy how much I hate him. As a character, he's interesting, but I'm not eager to learn more from his personal viewpoints. I enjoy him as an Interlude villain, but would have preferred any of a dozen other possibilities for a viewpoint character. In explanation of my point of view on this, I've found a few of the comments that others have that explain why they like him, and I will respond to them below. Please understand, though, that this is how I feel, and I don't find fault for how you feel (even though you're wrong ). Szeth was never forced to kill against his will. He chose to do so. He was acting, on his own, according to orders given from others. I disagree, adamantly, that he was 'forced' to do anything. He had the strength, power, and skill necessary to prevent any of the deaths that occurred at his hand by simply doing nothing. Even if there was some kind of extreme blackmail-type situation going on, where if he doesn't do what the holder of his Oathstone says the Stone Shamanate kills his family, I would still find fault with Szeth. The most interesting thing about Szeth is that Szeth himself thinks he is doing evil, and wrong, and accruing sin, but he does it anyway--but that fact is what makes me hate him. Yes, such dedication to doing whatever someone else says, no matter how repugnant or evil, is surely something that should be praised. I don't find it a strength, at all, but I recognize that is just my own viewpoint. However, he hasn't done anything to redeem himself yet. So what that he stopped fighting against Kaladin at the last second? Kaladin clearly had the upper hand at that point of the fight, so Szeth's action is symbolic only and with no real sacrifice. This is the man that has cast the world into chaos, leading to the virtual shutdown of some nations and the end of another, and you think that him not fighting for a few seconds in a fight he was losing is some form of redemption? Strongly disagree; even if Szeth was handily beating Kaladin and then chose suicide on Kaladin's blade, I would disagree with this being redemption. I do think his story has great potential to be very interesting, but there is literally nothing that can be done to make me like the guy. He deserves all of the hate that he gets, and more. He is a direct or indirect cause of the major problems facing the world, including the Everstorm. Also, you'll find plenty of people on these forums that actually like Szeth or at least find him interesting/intriguing or don't hate him much.

I don't have any Writing Excuses help for you, but if you're unsure of places that you can actually submit your stories too, http://www.ralan.com/ is a great resource. The website also has compiled links to magazines of all types (pro/semi-pro/etc.), whether they are accepting submissions, what the pay is, etc. The site also has a number of other resources available, too, such as how to format your story in 'standard' format, and all kinds of other incredibly helpful things. The site itself is constantly updated, and has been very useful to myself and a few friends.

I...I can't even make stick figures right. My friend's 6-year old daughter makes fun of my drawings because they are so bad.

This. I think that my thoughts, if pressed, on Renarin would have been "He's Adolin's brother...right? I think that's his brother's name, anyway." Substantially changed/improved because of reading on the forums. Not this. I started off sympathetic with Szeth, and have grown less and less so. But, no need to go into particulars here, as this thread isn't about how awful Szeth is. I do enjoy how very much I hate him, though, so there's that, but I have a feeling it's going to go away by the end of Book 3 if Sanderson tries to make him sympathetic again.

An interesting thought occurred to me while I was reading this, especially in conjunction with the question as to why soulcasters (the fabrial) are so rare. What if a Soulcaster (ardent) actually turns into a soulcaster (fabrial), and that is the only way that new fabrials are made? I don't think this is the case, but it seems to answer why the fabrials are so rare, the change in appearance, and the secretiveness of it all. If the first one was created by ripping out the parts of the person's spiritweb that contained the power of Soulcasting, that may also explain the possible similarities to Inquisitors, Koloss, and Kandra--via Hemalurgy.

As you always have been, and so shall always be.

Wearing Shardplate is like being in a tank. A tank isn't going to lose to most infantry, especially in an open battle, very often. On the other hand, using a tank to fight infantry (while effective) is not using its strength and power in the best way possible. As far as differences in writing between GoT and SA--Sanderson isn't writing literary slasher fic. A significant draw to many of the fans of GoT is the random unpredictability of who is killed and who isn't. I understand your complaint about Jasnah's 'death'; it worked for me because I never believed her to actually be dead. Szeth's revival, on the other hand, worked poorly for me. There've been other threads, including at least one that is active on front page, discussing these issues if you want to contribute more there. If you're wanting other authors that gleefully kill off characters that fans have come to know and love or care for, there's not many besides GRRM writing fantasy. I would very highly suggest Mira Grant's Newflesh trilogy (starting with Feed)--not fantasy at all, as it's a near-future post-zombie apocalypse, but it is insanely good (I don't like the genre, and Feed is one of my favorite books of all-time). A lot of friends that I have that enjoy GRRM also really like Joe Abercrombie, but his characters always felt very flat to me; an incredibly notable exception is the very well-written Best Served Cold. Glen Cook is also always good, especially his Black Company series, and I also really enjoy his Instrumentalities of the Night, too, but that's a lot more political than grimdark (although it's got more than it's fair share of that, too, hah). Not sure if you were looking for other reading suggestions or not, but those are what I can come up with right now that I think you might enjoy based on what you've said. Keep reading Sanderson, though; even though the style is quite a bit different than GRRM, I've found that my satisfaction level remains higher for longer with Sanderson's works than GRRM. I mean, I grow actually attached to the characters, and enjoy going back to reread his books and spend more time with them, and look for things I missed before, etc. With GRRM, I know everyone dies. By the end of Dance with Dragons, every character I still like is dead. The draw for me to keep reading is to see the ones that I love hating to get what's coming to them. This is good for short- and mid-term, but it's not got the same impact; my interest in new novels by GRRM is fading with every year that passes without a new novel published, and it has been a steady downward trend overall since the Red Wedding. With Sanderson, literally every novel he publishes seems to be better and more exciting than the one before it, so I spend a great deal of time, excitedly awaiting the new one with impatient anticipation.

Jasnah's death and return are a bit wonky for a few different storytelling reasons. This was Shallan's book, and her time to actually start coming into her own--and she can't do that with a mentor-figure that is so very much more accomplished hovering over her. The "death" and return of Jasnah, combined with the "death" and return of Szeth, however, leaves the actual end of WoR in something resembling a 'reset', where things happened, but in the end not much really changed (this is obviously not factually true, but the feeling on two major characters coming back from the dead being the final scenes serves to leave that impression.) However, if Jasnah had returned sooner, it would have detracted from the story instead of adding to it. I feel that the same is also true if she were to, say, return in Book 3. No matter when Jasnah were to return, it would be a disruption to the story. The way it's done, at the end of Book 2, actually helps to advance the story a little bit, and give hints of meaning and purpose to it. At the point of the reveal, I was finally beginning to think that her death might actually have been real. There were so few pages left in the book, and I assumed there would be another entry of the Ars Arcanum, and the bit with Szeth seemed like it could be the final end of the story--and then there was Wit. And a bit later, there was Jasnah. Maybe if I had actually believed her to be dead I would think differently, but I do think that how it happened is the best way for it to have happened, if it needed to. Of course, Book 2 could have been turned into Jasnah's story and prevented any need for dead/not-dead from happening, but that would have also substantially changed everything else.

What Elhokar was seeing is described in exactly the same way as the spren that Shallan saw. Whether Elhokar is a proto-Radiant or not is up for question, but when an author describes things in precisely the same way it's almost always a clue to the readers that they look the same or are the same. Occasionally it's done on purpose to confuse or fool the readers in a way that would be impossible using a different medium, and is generally done by authors that rely upon cheap tricks to keep their audience guessing. In the thread that Green Hoodie Mistborn linked, maxal proposes that the spren were interested in Elhokar because he is the king. This allows the spren to be cryptic spren that were looking in on Elhokar just because, and they left rather than deal with Syl, spren of a type they don't like.

I guess I need to re-read the duels; they're mixing together in my head, and the quotes provided in this thread are not doing much. Sadly, I keep leaving my book at home when I'm here at work, which is silly because here at work is when I do most of my posting hah. Regardless, you missed my point when you stated: I am saying that the only difference is the scale. The action taken, at its basic core, is the same: manipulate the rules and expectations and perceptions of others for personal gain. Adolin did it to a few people, Sadeas did it to several thousand. both found victory of a sort, but not as complete as they would have wished. For the most part, the rest of the arguments I'm making you seem to understand, and we simply disagree. I don't understand how you can think that Adolin was acting with honor in the duels leading up to the 4 on 1, but you seem to have a somewhat different idea or definition of what is honorable than me--and that's fine

No; most of the disagreement is because of Adolin's actions, both during and after the duel. In what world is it honorable to threaten someone with death after they've already lost a duel with clearly defined limits? Seriously. Because that's exactly what Adolin did. Forget the duel--his immediate actions after winning were full of Odium (we know this, because of the reference to the Thrill). We know he wasn't acting honorably there; there is no defense for his actions, of threatening to crush a defeated man's throat with Plate. That, in particular, is what set up the revenge duel that was designed to maim/cripple Adolin (at least, in my mind). The fact that he didn't carry it out means that Relis and his friends acted way out of line in their duel. They were wrong, and more wrong than Adolin. That does not, in any way, make Adolin's actions more right, though. Dalinar was using Adolin to move against the highprinces, and to force the Alethi to act and behave in ways that they don't want to. Relis was likely being used by Sadeas as a counter to this move. Neither Adolin or Relis were blameless innocents walking into that duel. If you poke a sleeping bear with a stick until it attacks you, then you bear (pun intended) some of the blame. the 4 on 1 duel was more than just punishment for winning a duel. I mean, Adolin's own supposed friend was taking part against him. It was to punish the Kholins in general, and Adolin in particular. Adolin was only 'trapped' in the match because he charged headlong into it, both before he realized it was there--and then afterwards as well. If you've fallen over the wall at a zoo and are in a pit with a bear, and you decide to attack it, then it may be at least a little bit your fault if the bear attacks you back. Dalinar and Adolin decided to fight back against Sadeas's treachery (which was entirely in keeping with the Alethi way of life and the laws of the land) by trying the exact same tricks and manipulations. The plan was not honorable. You cannot find fault with what Sadeas did in one breath, and then find Adolin entirely blameless with the next, because their basic actions are the same--the only difference is one of scale. (Sadeas tricked Dalinar into thinking that they were allies, and then when the moment was right, left Dalinar and all his men to die. Adolin tricked Elit and others into thinking he was a worse duelist than he was, and when the moment was right, soundly pounded them in a humiliating defeat.) Again, I'm not, at all, saying that Adolin was wrong, or that he deserved what was planned. I'm saying that he was not innocent, he was not blameless, he was not acting honorably. In comparison to Relis and crew? Sure. But, Relis and crew were acting honorably in comparison to Sadeas. Such a comparative view is not really helpful, is it?

We also have no idea what Tarah looked like, and she's only mentioned a few times. Does this mean she, too, is a candidate for being a possible Herald?

I had plenty of time to think about my response, sitting here bored out of my mind at work while nothing is happening lol. As far as Investiture goes, though, I tend to think of it as electricity, really, just for simplicity's sake. I mean, there's a whole crapload of ways that it's generated, and used, and it's all for some truly amazing things--but if the system isn't rigged just right, then the way you generated your electricity is, at best, useless. I mean, you can't take 9 volt batteries and attach them to a computer and power it. You also shouldn't plug in your 110v computer's power supply to a 220v outlet--unless you want to see sparks, hear a fizz come from inside, and then cry when a small *poof!* of smoke jets out from the case and you realize what you've done.

I tried holding off, but I do have a few words to say; I likely won't say anything else, though, because the conversation is seeming to run in circles now anyway, but there's at least one very important point I want to bring up. Realize that they kept one person on Renarin, preventing Renarin from assisting in a material way--but they didn't actually hurt him. The goal wasn't to hurt/harm Renarin, but to punish Adolin. The scope of their vengeance was, thus, quite narrow and specific. Renarin was unarmored and fighting just to hold onto the Blade; ending him as a threat, and then having that fourth person return to attack Adolin, would have been the smart and intelligent thing to do, and also in keeping with the rules. The fact that they didn't is telling, and a very strong point in their favor. Neither did the four. In fact, no one broke any rules. In accordance with grand Alethi tradition, they all instead manipulated the rules to achieve the outcome they wanted. This is not a point in Adolin's favor, as he was acting in the same fashion as they were. Either it's a good thing to manipulate rules, expectations, and codes of conduct--or it's not. (Assuming, of course, that one is acting in a way that is Honorable while they either uphold the rules and expectations or don't.) Adolin's actions in the duel against Relit weren't Honorable. There was absolutely nothing of Honor about it, but based on the Thrill, Odium was likely present. There is significant evidence that the four planned their response to the duel carefully, and deliberately. They did so primarily because of Adolin's attitude and behavior in the ring, and also likely because they could see exactly what the Kholins were attempting--and as determined to prevent it as Adolin was to achieve it. Adolin specifically opened himself up to the potential consequences knowingly and purposefully, and did not back down when given the opportunity--first right after the challenge, when asked by the judge; second before he charged them solo. Two opportunities to retreat or surrender are more than most enemies are given, so in this the judge acted with at least the barest modicum of honor. The questions here are simple. Had Adolin acted with Honor in his previous duels? No. Not even close. Retirbution, judgment, vengeance; not Honor. Did anyone, at all, in that ring act with Honor? Kaladin, Renarin, and, after Renarin was directly threatened, Adolin. Did Adolin deserve punishment for his previous actions? Yes. Choking and threatening a disarmed/defeated opponent in a fight that had clearly defined rules that were not to the death is most definitely not of Honor. Did he deserve maiming or death for them? No, not even close. The chosen punishment was out of all proportion to the insult he gave them. tl;dr: Adolin is worse than most of you are saying, and the four are better. All of them are playing the exact same game that Sadeas proved to be a master of.

There is no way that Jasnah sees Kaladin as the most dangerous threat to the Kohlins, short of the Voidbringers. If Kaladin wanted them dead, they would already be dead. All of them. Multiple times over. It'd be like Dalinar vs. Elhokar at the end of WoK--except with Jasnah as Elhokar which is sooooo wrong to even imagine. Also, there is literally no reason for Shallan to make knowledge of Lightweaving public. There is merit in letting the Highprince of War (Dalinar), whoever is in charge of Intelligence for the Army, and perhaps one or two other non-Radiant commanders know. However, as soon as the strengths and possibilities of Lightweaving are in any way known, they immediately lose a whole lot of power and effectiveness. This is especially true if they would want to, I don't know, spy on Amaram or Mr T from time to time. Or have her act as a bodyguard that is virtually impossible to detect while hiding behind a wall that makes the room just a foot smaller. One of its great strengths is that it lies about what is there, and it's so much easier to fool people when they don't think there's any possibility of you lying to them about who you are. I definitely see conflict between Kaladin and Jasnah in the coming books, but for none of the reasons you've guessed/hinted at. The clash is going to be because they are both intelligent people with fairly substantially different views on the world. Their similarities are enough to make the differences rather glaring (I would like to point out that this point seems that it may be very true for all of the Radiant Orders; it certainly is so far.)

^

Szeth's body dies, breaking the bond with the Honorblade (supposedly) but his Cognitive and Spiritual forms are still alive when Nale brings him back. Investiture-based healing on most planets is based on how you perceive yourself, so your Cognitive self must still be 'alive' for the healing to take place. Returned are people who have died, received a Splinter of Endowment, and then came back from the dead. They have an idealized form based on society's views of that time. Szeth's body presumably stayed the same, so he did not Return that way. He is not on Warbreaker's planet (Sel? I forget the name), so he is not a Returned of Endowment. None of the Shards seem to have exactly the same magic system, so it is incredibly unlikely for Odium's or Cultivation's to work that way (especially since we have seen pieces of both, and a lot more of Honor's.) ie, there is literally nothing to suggest that Szeth is a Returned. I remember there being a WoB that Nightblood would go after Investiture that's not 'attached' to a person first, that he would consume, say, someone else before the wielder, but I can't find it now--and that may have also been conjecture and theory and not actual WoB. Regardless, we know that simply being a Returned does not grant immunity from Nightblood's nature. However, we also have a clue as to how Szeth could wield Nightblood safely: carry lots and lots of Emerald broams or other gems that are fully infused with Stormlight. This would be rather incredibly limited, but Vasher's wielding of Nightblood was very limited, too. As to your questions, even though maxal answered them somewhat already. Zahel and Vasher are the same person, but Nale is someone different. (There's a WoB that Vasher feels responsible for Nightblood's loss, which is proof that Vasher and Nale aren't the same person.) Words of Radiance does, indeed, take place a couple centuries after Warbreaker, although the exact timeline is a little bit wobbly at current. Stormlight is Investiture; Breaths are Investiture. They heal in similar ways, and absolutely do not change whether someone is a Returned or not. That'd be like saying that access to Breath would make Syl a human.

The question regarding the fallout from Heleran being killed by Kaladin in a random border dispute is actually incredibly huge. It's indirectly responsible for both Kaladin and Shallan. Kaladin, because otherwise he never would have been made a bridgeman and found his way to Radianthood through that path (he likely would have anyway, but it would have been different). This also means that there would not have been any Kholin survivors from the Sadeas betrayal, so Dalinar and Adolin would be dead. Mr T would not regretfully send Szeth against Dalinar, because Dalinar is dead. WoR spoilers, because even though it's been longer than 6 months it may still matter due to which forum this is So, I guess really, without Heleran being killed by Kaladin, Odium probably wins.

Completely agree with this.

Hmm. Maybe Nalan is a spren?! Spren are attracted to/by people because of their actions and personality, after all...

From the Prologue in WoK, Szeth gives us our first introduction to Stormlight. He considers it profane that people use something so holy for light (paraphrased as I don't have books with me right now, but intent is the same. I can't recall if it is more, or less, profane to walk on stone.) So they have it, but it's holy/mystical in nature, and not entirely common or out in the open.

I think that Nalan has to have some way to detect Surgebinding, or at least spren, even from a distance. Otherwise he never would have had a hope of finding Szeth after the duel with Kaladin at the end of WoR. (And, although I disagree with the theory that Nalan has been using Szeth all along, it is a distinct possibility with a fair amount of circumstantial evidence to support it. And there's a thread discussing it...somewhere.) We also know that Nalan pays a fair amount of attention to Szeth, or at least seems to based on the conversation that he has with Szeth at the end; he had to have a good idea of the mindset of Szeth before he became Truthless, how being Truthless was affecting him and changing him, etc. I don't care about any of that anymore, though. This thread is now about Marmota's avatar pic, because it is just ADORABLE.

I know, it's fine, was just poking gentle fun at you and the poll The problem with creating a favorite character poll for SA is a testament to how great the series is--there are just so many damnation good characters it's hard to choose, and yet they all remain entirely distinct in my mind. (And, to be completely fair to you, I believe that your poll is the most inclusive of all of the potential favorites that I've seen on here.)

1. Stick 2. Shallan 3. Jasnah Kaladin featured in there after WoK, but WoR forced a re-ordering of the world. I mean, Stick was just awesome. Can't wait for Jasnah and Stick to have a confrontation in future books. (On a for serious note, though, it'd be Shallan, Jasnah, Lift. I'd like Hoid to be up there, but I have grave concerns about him currently; Kaladin annoyed me far too much after WoR to put above characters that I loved in both, and I'm not yet done being mad with him about killing Syl; and Adolin is seriously growing on me. Dalinar is far too stuffy and ignorant of how people actually work, but he is also slowly turning into a character that I see me loving in the not-too-distant future. Also, Syl and Pattern are both great, and should be on the list. And man, I also forgot Lopen and Rock. This is really a "Who are your five, I mean six, no wait, eight. Yes, who are your eight favorite characters in The Stormlight Archive? question.)

RAFO generally tends to mean that the question isn't one he is prepared to answer right now. Not everything that has been RAFOd will be answered by future books. Also, there are some subjects that he RAFOs every question (such as Hoid's early life gets an automatic RAFO). So, unless he gives some kind of special or unique RAFO (see where someone asked if Hoid has ever been to Braize, for instance) I would be leery of using a RAFO as evidence of anything. On the other hand, I do very much believe that we'll get a lot more about the underlying structure of the Cosmere as we go forward. That's because it makes good storytelling sense, and is likely to fit in with his plans, though--and I expect any such clues to be rather small and incidental, rather than huge plot points. (Then again, I consider the direct Shardic conflict in Mistborn between Preservation and Ruin to be largely incidental to the story, even though it brackets and contains and is ultimately the reason for the story.) What we do know, currently, is that Shards do not require an exact opposite, and that Preservation and Ruin were at least somewhat unique in how perfectly they opposed each other. It seems likely to me that there may be something going on between the Shards and their interactions that has similarities to the Allomancy table at a basic level, but is actually fundamentally quite different. If there is something going on with Shards and the three Levels of reality, I expect that it has to do with whether their magic system is net positive, net negative, or net neutral, and that their interactions with each other are based on the 'charge' of their magic system.