Frostlander

This came up briefly on Wednesday (I think), but I just can't help but absolutely cringe every time Dalinar "interprets" his visions. When much of the scope of the book was focused on Alethi political infighting, Dalinar wrongly concluded that he had to unite the highprinces. Now that we've pulled back to a more continental view, he just knows that he has to unite Roshar. Aside from the too-easy timing early in the book, I think he is totally wrong about his role. Their name says they literally forge bonds, and I think Bondsmiths help regulate the more magic-based bonds on Roshar somehow. This may include bonding with mega-spren who control things like Roshar's ecosystem or who offer Bondsmiths access to certain powers related to the Cognitive Realm. (I'm not sure if the Spiritual Realm factors into this.) To use an imperfect Earth analogy, I see a system that includes more "spiritual" (not necessarily Spiritual Realm!) and more "temporal" leaders, kind of like medieval theory. (There may be a more accurate non-European analogy.) Why have a guiding Ishar and a kingly Jezrien? One represents an order that deals with the health of Roshar's bonds and the other represents a more "earthly" political leadership. Dalinar is going to have to learn quickly and accept that his role is not political unification. That's not what his powers are for and his flashbacks, I think, will reinforce how wrong this is to the readers. This is not really brand new speculation, but I think we may want to assume he is totally not supposed to unite Roshar unless proven otherwise.

I've been reading Mistborn annotations out of impatience, and there's been a lot in them about plotting in a series. I think the odd feeling we're getting from the writing is a combination of a bunch of recap for people who don't think about these books as much and tying up some loose ends. WoR also zoomed out at the end from squabbling factions of Alethkar and the war on the Shattered Plains to a supernatural event that will involve the entire continent and take the story in lots of new directions. I'm actually ok with the awkwardness if it means we're moving into the next phase of the 5-book arc/series. And the fact that he felt the need to take care of things so early suggests that there's a lot of new stuff coming up soon.

Sorry for the upcoming giant quote from the scene where Dalinar watches the Recreance, but I've never understood the bolded sections: In terms of "the first," is he referring to the non-radiants who take the blades and plate or to the Radiants? Both? And why does he switch tenses from "They are the first" to "They were the first and they were also the last." Then, when Dalinar asks if this is the Day of Recreance, the voice gives a non-answer. Non-answers, I've found, frequently mask misdirection in Sanderson's writing. (Ofen, these moments sound poetic or funny.) What are the other names for what happened there besides Recreance? Have we heard them? There's something off about the construction of this scene here, but I can't figure out what or why.

Ok, so I found these odd quotes in tWoK and WoR: In Pattern's quote, the word vibrant is in italics in the text. Sanderson uses vibrant in other places to describe bright colors in SA, but there are two quotes where Spren appear to specifically describe vibrancy as the thing that drew them to either humans or their human. Oathbringer Prologue: But Gavilar seems to associate humans at their "best" with (perhaps) the radiance of stormlight and seems to be trying to persuade Eshonai that "advanced" Listener forms represent a higher form of existence. Is "vibrant" just another sorta-sometimes-synonym for "radiant" in a book that uses that word a lot already? I honestly don't know the answer to any of this. (I think it would be going a bit too far to find a connection between the use of the word "drab" and Nalthis, though! )

Chana as Liss seems so perfect (having a brave obedient warrior sell her services to someone who orders her to [usually] stealth-kill people), that it's either absolutely true or a very blatant fakeout. But the way it lines up, combined with what Peter said, means it's almost certainly intentional. Personally, I hope it's true, because it would be a really great storyline.

After reading the Prologue, it's really interesting to see the sections of the Diagram that almost seem to be working out in real time that Gavilar/Sons of Honor were wrong: There are a couple of others, but I almost wonder if a lot of the Diagram was working out this alternative view. I'm sure this has been brought up, but the Prologue really brought it into focus. Ninja'd!

So it says get them out of hiding in the new version Which is more compatible with there maybe being one not in hiding. But I was actually thinking the Herald in Gavilar's company might be under cover or at least lying to him. You're right of course. Wild speculation. At this point, it's hard to rule anything out. A traitorous Herald looking to bring about a True desolation could be lying about a lot of things: their identity, what was required to bring a desolation, etc. Whoever was communicating with Gavilar may have suspected that Taln was going to break soon and set Gavilar up to make this an extra-special "True" desolation, unlike any other. The desolation was going to happen anyway. The person with this knowledge needed to wait for the right time, a good con, and some sphere-shaped weapons in the hands of dangerous people. Essentially, we can split suspects into two groups: those we can envision having access to this knowledge: Heralds, Nightwatchered folk, an early Truthwatcher(?), someone connected to an Adonalsiumspren? On the other side are people we can't consider yet because we are missing too many pieces of the puzzle to include them. The scope of the books just got much wider, and just thinking about the surprises we got in WoR (the existence of the Diagram!!), leaves a lot still out there.

@CalderisAm loving the idea of a Tarachin Superstar. Aside from that, I'll join you in flailing and grasping at straws: contact with a Herald? a visit to the Nightwatcher? Someone, somehow "hacking" the Cognitive(?) realm to transmit additional information? He's clearly been doing or receiving extra research/info on the side, and it's not from Mr. T's visit to NW, as that happened after. It's excruciating to not know!

I was about to say this. Would definitely explain the "I'm RAFO in anything to do with the third Bondsmith" WoB. I wonder if the Bondsmith Melishi just happened to be bonded to that spren.

@CalderisI'm curious about the differences between D & G's visions. Is it possible that they just had different "conversations" with the Almighty's recordings in the visions? These different, one-sided conversations would lead to varying interpretations? Or is there something else I'm missing? And yes to our guy in the robes!!

This theory comes from thinking about the likelihood that Adonalsium and his shards and attributes are based on or closely related to Earth religions. It is important to note that I am not suggesting that these books are allegorical. Their internal consistency and foundation have been made stronger by the study of world religions. These ideas were sparked by thinking about Odium as a manifestation of divine wrath: This is something that has been discussed already, but I think it is a huge clue to what is going on with the shards more generally. Although Odium is described as “divine hatred,” I think readers have correctly interpreted this to mean “wrath.” (I think it’s also possible that some of the other shards—perhaps especially those with weaker or very compatible vessels—have gone a little “batty” from being isolated from other divine virtues that would have kept them from going overboard with their Intent.) So, anyway, substituting Odium for the theologically familiar “wrath” is a smart move, as it allows for some speculation but is not blatant. Some shards, such as Endowment and Dominion are actual theological concepts, but they are less obvious to readers than Wrath would have been. This brings me to another possible substitution: “Honor” as a replacement for “Covenant.” There is a lot of debate over the relationship between goodness and honor, but what if Honor represents the covenants that a god makes with a people? (Covenant—or compact, if you like—also has legal and social meanings in addition to the theological one.) Thinking of Honor as representing covenants maintains the oath and bonds aspect of Honor, but it should allow us to talk about honor (and Honor) with less emphasis on goodness. On the other side of the coin, it also allows for more flexibility and room for interpretation with how covenants, oaths, and bonds are “honored” in-world. (Rightness vs. Justice vs. Letter of the Law, etc.) It is probably more useful to think of “honor” as a verb: to enforce or follow through on a covenant, oath, or to maintain a bond. Again, I am not arguing that the possible use of the concept of a covenant is allegorical. Tanavast never sent a rainbow after a particularly bad Highstorm. Gods make promises to and agreements with their followers. I won’t attempt to rewrite our understanding of the Cosmere or even of SA with this theory. I am more interested in how it could influence existing discussions and current and future theories. The one application I’ll suggest is also probably the most obvious. I suspect Adonalsium already had a covenant with the Listeners before his shattering: Post shattering, Honor, now separated from “the whole” appeared with the more Physically-inclined, spren-attracting humans and a willingness to betray or downgrade preexisting covenants. For a Listener, flirting with some other gods would not be unreasonable under those circumstances. Keeping in mind that Honor may have been a little intense with his Intent as a shard, are there other ways that covenants and agreements might have ended up a bit “off”? What is the Oathpact? Why do the Heralds blame Honor for their situation? Is a hypothetical Parshendi covenant still in existence somehow? Finally, I realize that this doesn’t touch on Cultivation’s role, though hopefully it will lead to speculation about how she fits into this picture. I’m very interested to hear thoughts on this idea! Also, I'm just realizing the bad timing of suggesting a theory just before we dig into the first chapters of Oathbringer. Oh well!

These parallels are actually one of my favorite things about these books. It's fun to see them pop up as I read, but what I really like is how they make the Cosmere books so fresh yet familiar. I read books that are based on (I don't know what to call them) "standard" western or Judeo-Christian inspired fantasy structures all the time. Here, there are all these themes that feel new or surprising (to me, at least), and they aren't half-baked or experimental. Yes, Sanderson does like to try out "what would happen if...", but because the LDS thematic differences are so well developed and often used subconsciously, they are authentic foundations to the stories and not added just to be different. Include his interest in comparative religion and global perspective, and these are just amazing books. And, of course, the most important thing is that he's a great writer, period. (As with the other posters' comments, I hope this post comes across as respectful and admiring of what ideological and religious diversity can add to stories!)

@AgewalkerI do remember having had to think about it for a sec before I remembered that, unless something really crazy is going on with Stormfather and he can't consent, Stormfather consented because the Nahel bond requires consent. (Hope that makes sense!) However, I do think you are thinking along the right lines with regard to bonds and consent. Given the Everstorm, a possibly not-so-nice side of fabrial science, and the very word "Voidbinding," I believe the relationship between bonds, bondage, and consent will absolutely be explored soon, probably starting in Oathbringer.

I'd look for places where characters cut each other off or stop listening to each other, and the partial information we receive may actually reinforce mistaken assumptions. Shallan and Pattern have a couple, but Jasnah and Wit's conversation at the end of WoR is one of my favorites, as it leaves a whole mess of things open about Voidbringers. It took a couple reads for me to realize that we maybe learned less than nothing in that exchange. I imagine there are a lot more hidden in the books.

There is a passage in WoK where Shallan is reading Gavilar's account of meeting the Parshendi, as recorded by Jasnah. This might be what you are thinking of: She's making it clear that he is intelligent but focused on non-scholarly pursuits here. Then, when Shallan is reading Navani's biography of Gavilar and discussing it with Jasnah: As for reading or writing, I don't think he could do either, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence from the text that supports it. It's a good question, and for all we know, Szeth writing Gavilar's last words could be misdirection on this issue. Probably not, but you never know with these books.

Agreed. I think it's important to separate highly complex antagonists that readers might empathize with or who could become sympathetic (Szeth, Eshonai, etc.) and antagonists I think of as "micro-bosses" or "mini-bosses." Here, I'm thinking of people like Straff and Sadeas. Sadeas, I think, is more complex than Straff, but they serve to introduce the reader to the world and conflicts of the story or to redirect the story as necessary. Once their role is finished, there's a sense of rightness (sometimes with reader fatigue) in their death, even if there are some lingering ramifications for the living characters. So, I don't necessarily see squabbling highprinces and their wives being center stage for too much longer. If some of them join or form secret societies, that could be a way to keep them as important-ish characters. Otherwise, at the end of WoR, the series' scope broadened dramatically and we'll need new "mini-bosses" to help us understand new rules and new stakes. That said, I'm not sure if we know who the primary mini-boss antagonists for the next 1-2 books will be. They could be a leader of a secret society or a Herald, for example. One of the more complex antagonists could get moved into that type of role, too. I would actually not be surprised to see us looking back at Odium as a mini-boss in 10 years. But we'll need additional rounds of mini-boss/scope-widening before we're close to that.

I do give the guy some bonus points for (at least onscreen) not whining that he was too good to be at Lopen's mom's house. He was more like a temporary member of the family. And overall, that was a pretty comedic scene. I'm mostly just curious to see where Elhokar goes from here. However we got to where we are, he is an interesting character with good potential for development in several directions now that he's had some possible "turning point moments" in WoR.

Ah. That's right. I'd forgotten about that. Thanks! Also true. It looks like I got a little excited when talking about the gem. I suppose the gem aspect is part hunch, part narrative analysis, and partly based on all of the (admittedly incomplete) info we've been getting about gems trapping spren. I think that in a system that relies so much on honor and bonds, anytime we see a bond that doesn't rest on the consent of both parties, we should get at least a bit suspicious. Since the gem is required to create and break* the forced bond, it's hard to see Adolin having a real Nahel bond as long as the forced bond is there. Of course, it's possible that the first bond will allow Adolin to initially communicate with the spren somehow, leading to an unbonding and later, mutual bonding. The gem might be removed or fall out, but it's got to go at some point. Oathbringer may provide more information about gems and bonds, too. On the other hand, the knowledge may push Adolin to listen harder to blades who have been ignored, remember spren who have been forgotten, and bring out certain Edgedancer-y healing qualities. I doubt that step could be taken otherwise. So, it might be painful at first, but the pair of them may both be better in the end. *Just remembered that Dalinar didn't need to touch the gem when unbonding the blade at the end of WoR, so the tapping is probably a cognitive thing. That said, I do think that the presence of a gem (or perhaps being bonded to a BedazzledBlade) would prevent the formation of a true Nahel bond.

That’s an interesting point, though the spren make such a big deal about how the KR have to say “the words.” Unless the spren are mistaken-- always a possibility, given their memory loss. Thinking about Adolin and his blade, it seems like we need to also consider the gem placed in shardblades. Let’s say there has to be a cognitive syncing via oaths and some sort of heartbeat component to revive the spren. Where does the gem come in? We know that the gemstone in the pommel artificially forms a forced bond between the shardbearer and the spren that is locked in that form. (Perhaps by ornamenting or “personalizing” the first Bedazzled blade, the bearer formed the idea that it was “his” and the cognitive piece kicked in.) I suspect that the gem would have to come out of the pommel for the revival process to work. It would also be interesting to know the nature of the illness the bonder experiences for a few days when bonding a blade. At any rate, if the blade/dead-spren can’t be forcibly bonded to a random person unless a gem maintains the bond, it would make sense that Adolin’s blade would need to be unbonded and the spren free to choose to bond without the gem. There's been a lot of groundwork-laying that seems like it should be paying off soon. And it's been sitting in front of us the whole time, so it would certainly happen naturally. Shallan, Dalinar, and/or Renarin may also have some new thoughts to share with Adolin soon regarding gem-bonded blades…

@Calderis Deep realmatic theory is not my specialty, but I'll give this a go and see what others have to say. It almost seems as though the cognitive piece may have the most specific or firm requirements. The cognitive "syncing" provided by being in the same oath phase would take unusual circumstances, especially without anyone to train him, but it seems that Adolin is getting closer. Combined with what @aemetha reminded us about Adolin's belief that there was something to talk to in the sword, the cognitive conditions are pretty good. In terms of the physical aspect, I'm sure the resuscitation via heart beat that has been mentioned will come up if Adolin revives his blade. The heartbeat-as-spren-revival is too interesting not to explore in this way. It's not clear whether the point will be to demonstrate a requirement for physical syncing or, as we saw with Shallan and Pattern, the fact that in some cases, the heartbeats are a cognitive/perception matter. There are a lot of narrative possibilities for the physical part, ranging from Adolin reaching the necessary oath and just summoning his blade, to a dramatic moment of physical danger requiring (Renarin's?) healing to jolt them in sync or back alive. I can't quite speculate on what specifically would happen. Just as long as it doesn't require both Adolin and the spren to yell, "You're killing me!" at the same time... The spiritual piece is interesting, too, as Adolin doesn't seem to be broken in the same way as the others, but he might be an interesting example of the interaction between Vorin gender roles and KR reality. He is the perfect Alethi male in some ways, but he has "female" Edgedancer qualities. Perhaps an early breaking involved the death of his mother. Even though that would bump the mother-angst up to near-Disney levels in this series, he does certainly remember her and someone else has certainly forgotten her. From a more practical perspective, it would be a bit silly to have Adolin revive a spren, only to have that spren go off looking for someone more broken. The work he does with sword commands could fit cognitive or spiritual requirements. If Dalinar's book deals with his wife and with the Adolin-Sadeas issue, there may be room for Adolin to get at least closer to reviving a spren. Plus, he might be thinking more about this kind of thing with all of the other KR's running around now. And it would be very interesting to see Adolin healing people with Kaladin as a surgeon. @maxal might have some thoughts here, too.

If Adolin is already living the first two ideals of the Edgedancers, and he seems to be, perhaps he needs to reach the oath level that the spren in his blade had been at before the oaths were broken. We've already learned the first two from Lift, which makes it easier to move Adolin's story along, if that's the direction it's going--and I hope that it is. That oath parity would place Adolin and the spren cognitively in sync. Because heart beats are involved in temporarily reviving blades, that might be where the healing or regrowth comes in. If Adolin and the spren are both cognitively and physically in sync somehow, it might work.

Perhaps the Windrunners often served as more of an advance force and the Stonewards were more of a rearguard. That's not to say that they were limited to those positions, but more that they were associated with them and their related heroic or courageous qualities. We also know that the Windrunners didn't always get along with the Skybreakers. There may be some tension (fun or otherwise) between Windrunners (Kaladin) and Lightweavers (Shallan) and their Cryptics and Honorspren. Lightweavers and Truthwatchers might squabble over how to interpret truth. And Shallan and Renarin didn't always work well together, especially at the end of WoR. If Renarin "sees" and Shallan manipulates truth and vision with shadows and light, that could lead to conflict. I could actually see Lightweavers and Edgedancers working well together to change and heal using sight and sound.

I agree that Pai seemed genuine. To play devil's advocate for a minute, the other ardent who was showing her around seemed to be conveniently fitting her into ardent stereotypes, such as taking a new, plain name. He also was engaging in a lot of wishful thinking and did not seem to be the most reliable narrator. Also, if I'm not mistaken, we don't actually know a whole lot about the Sons of Honor. We know that for at least some of them, bringing a desolation to return the Vorin church to power is a goal. And there is the mysterious Restares, who may run a more organized group than we think right now. But absolutely this is the sort of chaos that various factions will use either way.

I know we've seen more potential KR's on the Cultivation "side" of the chart, but those orders may be more open to a variety of ages. The Ring chose Lift in part because they felt they could mold her. Shallan was also young, but basically, they represent all ages. I don't think we've seen any from the Honor side (not that we've seen many) who were younger than "young adult." Perhaps there's more flexibility on the Cultivation half of the chart. Taking this perhaps too far, it's possible that the closer you get to the top, the more important it is that the potential KR's be of an age at which they can consent to enter into a bond. (This last part is likely just part of the bond, void, and consensual bonding kick I'm on right now... )

I'm pretty suspicious of modern fabrials, as they trap "living ideas," forcing them into a sort of bondage on a planet where mutual, symbiotic bonds are really important to "our heroes." I doubt that the books would drop scientific advances into the story only to trash science and use it as a foil for "real magic." That said, it would be surprising if the books didn't explore the compromises people make in exchange for scientific progress. I can see this playing out in several different ways, though I'm not sure if we'll be worried about windspren or about taking the tech to its logical conclusion with more aware spren. Now I'm off to see how many scenes feature modern fabrials and Syl or Pattern...