Kurkistan

We've gotten an answer: Source

Nice. Thanks for all that. "Immune" suggests that the Thrill really is Odium-related, if Kaladin felt it in that flashback...

That doc is from the Phoenix Comicon, not Connecticon. To my knowledge, we have no recording from Connecticon.

Yeah, they weren't honorspren. Gloom is right: exactly two mentions of honorspren in the book. The Nahoden flashback and the climax.

Um, sound file? Do tell.

First of all, thank you fro posting this information, jag. Did you hear any other new info while you were there? Second, I agree with Shardlet that Rithmatics may well have deviated from Realmatics since Brandon made the switch-over, making analysis of either discipline in light of the other problematic, at the very least. Third, I agree that there's nothing really Cosmere-shattering in what we see. Beauty standards for chalklings do provide some discussion: Are they evaluated based on their creator, people who see them, or the population at large? Can Melody talk to hers because she expects them to more intelligent than most people do, or because the detail she puts into them actually makes them more intelligent? Both? Some Realmatics could be derived from that. The existence of population-wide beauty standards would also be yet another piece of evidence for all the Forms theorizing I've been spouting for a while (seriously, though: I've been expecting a parade at how right I am by this point. Color me sad ).

Same here, Shardlet.

No, the feedback still occurs because people in the speed bubble are still going significantly faster than they would be if that bubble didn't exist at all. It's "overwhelmed" in the sense that they are going slower than the real world, but they are still going quite a bit faster than the rest of the slow bubble. Also, I'm assuming Marasi simply chose unfortunate phrasing rather than being flat-out incorrect. I do doubt Allomantic FTL uses Shadesmar, though, as I discussed with Phantom here.

A fair point. I'm uncomfortable applying the same solution we give for air and light (whatever it may be) to the power that actually keeps the bubble going, though.

Sorry about that: I went a bit overboard.

Yeah, that follows. I discuss it at the end of the OP, actually.

That's not a problem, I don't think. It just seems that some proportion might be needed in deciding whether an object is "in" or "out" of the bubble. So a small shack that's 90% in the bubble gets included, but a mansion does not. A nail that's part of a floor primarily considers itself as a part of the floor (ala Forging a wall), and so is only included in the bubble if the entire floor is, not the other way around. That's part of the point of my distension theory: so a bubble on a flat plane of grass isn't actually spherical, but is instead flattened out where it touches the ground, since the ground isn't part of it. We go into more depth on this thread.

As to your thought experiment: Yes, I've had some thoughts on the elasticity of bubble surfaces. Option 2 seems to most clearly run in parallel to the "Distension theory", but option 1 seems a natural extension to account of the flawless inclusion of living things. I highly doubt option 3, though, since it runs afoul of the obvious problem brought by option 1: if the spear is enveloped by the bubble, and the soldier is touching it, then he will be touching the bubble and be brought in. Option 4 is also highly doubtful, if only because it runs afoul of the rather solid "nothing outside can affect the inside" paradigm that both the book and the MAG emphasize. As for the spear being part of the Cognitive identity of the wielder: perhaps. Arguments can be made (in real philosophy, no less) as to the extent to which objects we wear, possess, or wield are truly a part of our selves. But, sadly, that is only a side issue here, as the spear being included in the bubble necessarily brings the wielder into contact with the bubble's surface. -- The bubble springing out to eat people who touch it produces some odd results, though. First of all, it makes the bubble very very active, its confines changing drastically and with relative ease. Second, and more pressingly, it opens up the door a daisy-chain effect: Say you have a chain of ten people holding hands. One of them touches a speed bubble. The surface jumps out to envelope him. Now the next person in line is holding the hand of someone in a speed bubble: in they go too. And so on. Until the bubble has extended out to encompass all 10 people, or all 100, as may be. This doesn't seem right, does it? But how to get around it? We may have to discard the idea of the bubble's surface being the thing that changes to accommodate for people and things being swallowed by it, or at least modify it. We may have to do my least-favorite thing, then: consider why exactly "jostling" happens when you enter or exit time bubbles. Sigh. The bubbles could, I suppose, actually be physically pushing or pulling people across their natural boundaries: so the elasticity of the bubble is such that it actually has some physical force as it tries to snap back into place. So the bubble doesn't really reach out to envelope daisy-chainer #0, but instead pulls him in over the natural boundary, with a rather violent yank. If that yank happens to yank in more people, then oh well. At least the bubble isn't extending half a mile out now. Thoughts on that? ---- Aaaand back on topic. I hesitate to attribute any fundamentally "special" behavior to light: its exclusion from the effects of time bubbles is a contrivance that was decided upon well after Brandon had already pitched the triple-trilogies with FTL coming from the magic system. This demands that light's exclusion ought not to be given as any real clue as to the fundamental nature of time bubbles, or anything in the Cosmere, really. I'm a tad unclear as to what scenario you're talking about with "inside bubbles" and "outside bubbles" "burning". Are you saying that, if someone played a practical joke on Marasi and she woke up inside another Cadmium bubble, her burn rate would unaccountably be ~20 times slower than usual, if she tried to burn Cadmium? The concern of the thread is more on where the power from the burning of the metals goes. Making the rather natural assumption that subjective burn times are constant, you are burning X metal and getting Y power per T unit of subjective time, regardless of what bubbles you're in or out of. Simply saying that the Power of Creation exists "outside time" does not help us here, since it obviously goes about interacting with the flow of time on quite a regular basis. Also, what have you to say on claims that the weight of evidence is rather firmly skewed against the idea that bubbles cannot overlap?

Sorry if the drawing is confusing (actually, now that I'm looking at it, it confuses me too). It's from a guy over on the Crafty forums, and was really just meant to show a very clear "Venn diagram" example of what I'm thinking in plain terms of bubbles canceling one another out. I think the idea of the drawing is that you can achieve the same benefits of a Bendalloy bubble--going faster than those around you--by casting a Bendalloy bubble inside a Cadmium bubble. I agree, though, that the situation is only identical in the very local scale. I don't agree, though, that it's very useful to cast a Bendalloy bubble if you're waiting for outside aid: presumably you want it to happen fast, but using a Bendalloy bubble means it takes the normal amount of time for aid to get to you, from your perspective. You just experience more time without being able to interact with anyone else in the bubble. Now perhaps if you were pulling a Wayne and trying to pick a few people off, but doing this while also waiting of outside aid, then it would be helpful. Not that any of this matters, since the end result is just some confusion because I couldn't resist the urge to pull in a pretty pretty picture as part of my explanation. And what's this about "the two bubble thing"? Color me intrigued, Windy... @Shardlet What flat-out doesn't make sense, bubble-math-wise?

Not to make you feel bad, but here's a slightly better one Though both are inaccurate under my budding theory, given that I think Marasi's bubble should be exploding just about now. EDIT reply: Yeah, time C is the tricksy one.

Since we're in the process of discussing magical interactions in a fantasy universe, I think we can allow for small digressions into how that magic might otherwise have functioned.

@lord_Ffnord The wave analogy is interesting. I agree that there's no problem with "lost" energy when speed and slow bubbles cancel one-another, but Marasi being inside Wayne's bubble is more akin to turning up the pressure on your hose but not expecting the water to flow any faster. So far as power's nebulousity goes, I'll have to disagree here: compounding, so far as we know, is a fairly regular process so far as its power output goes. Two bits of metal with the same charge to them should produce the same amount of energy if compounded, intuitively. We see nothing to indicate otherwise, and I think it more natural to think of Compounding as pouring on a known quantity of extra energy based on Feruchemical hi-jinks rather than being relatively arbitrary. You burn a metal, you get the energy from it. And you just lose so very much energy if Marasi can burn up enough Cadmium to skip 30 minutes and only manage to have her bubble skip 5. Yes, the bubble not being wholly dependent on the Allomancer is worth remembering. But I think it is still mostly dependent: if the Allomancer leaves the bubble, the bubble disappears. If he runs out of metals, the bubble disappears. If he stops burning, the bubble disappears. Wayne even had to maintain a flare at one point to give him and Wax enough time to talk: this means that the bubble doesn't simply require a minimum "maintenance" charge after being set up, and even suggests that the bubble would have "slowed down" if Wayne had stopped flaring. The maintenance of the bubble, then, is highly dependent on its Allomancer being both contained within it and burning their metal. Explaining uncertainties is good, especially in the face of a mondo-post such as mine. @Shardlet Just to be clear, you are saying that, given the MAG, the vast majority of your post is not how time bubbles actually work? Given that, thanks for the agreement on the MAG, and I can see the merit of your ideas in a world where overlap doesn't occur. It all makes a fair amount of sense, intuitively.

@Isomere Interesting. I doubt it, but interesting. Our current information on overlap comes from 3 sources: A Brandon quote from a signing: -This is ambiguous as to whether both bubbles still exist as separate entities after an overlap, I'll allow. AoL's Marasi-Wayne conversation: Wayne: "See, you and I, we have opposite powers. You speed up time, I slow it. So what happens if we both use it at the same time? Eh?" Marasi: "It's been documented: they cancel one another out. Nothing happens." -Probably the only positive evidence for your interpretation, given that it can be fairly read as universal. Given that Wayne was asking if anything special happened, and Marasi was busy saying how useless she was, not the strongest evidence. But worth considering. And then we have the MAG, which explicitly tells us that only areas of overlap are affected, bar none. While the MAG has been inaccurate on several points--sometimes as simple mistakes, more often on purpose for gameplay reasons--neither of those two options really presents itself here. The MAG gives complex instructions for what to do when areas of bubbles overlap, requiring all of these things to be tracked by the player. If they could simply say "bubble's who's centers are <= 1 radius apart collapse into one another, others don't interact", then I think they would have. Even if that is also complicated, it is at worst about equally as complicated as the current system of calculating bubble overlap, so you'd think they would ere on the side of accuracy if choosing between the two. That said, your thought experiments on how a world without overlap would function look to be accurate, though I question how we go about determining the point when the bubbles go from interference to joining together. @lord_Ffnord I go over anchoring in the FTL thread I link to at the top of the OP. Suffice it to say, for the sake of this thread's discussion, that I think anchoring time bubbles to ships to be possible. I have evidence and arguments to that effect on the other thread. As far as "bendalloy flaring" goes, the problem lies in where all the extra energy from Marasi's burn is going. If she normally produces 1 unit of energy per second (subjective) to maintain her 100ft bubble from the inside, then she will be producing 10 units of energy per second from the bubble's perspective if she is inside a speed bubble. If the energy just didn't do anything, then Marasi would burn Cadmium for 5 minutes subjective, but the rest of her bubble would only experience 30 seconds of time to 5 minutes outside the bubble--since Marasi, the Pulser, is only actually burning for 5 real minutes. This as opposed to the normal 5 minutes of time inside to 30 outside. So we have a cremload of energy being produced by Marasi's burn, energy which is unaccountably wasted if we don't somehow up the energy consumption of her time bubble. Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

So that's a "no" on this being a quick fix?

Ooh, shiny. It doesn't seem to have 17thShard tweets, though.

I was going to append this to my Yet another FTL Theory thread, but it got a bit involved so I decided to make a new topic for it. Update: More involved even than I thought it would be. Sorry. I have some concerns about "Who bubbles the bubbler?"--okay, not really, but I couldn't resist. More accurately, what happens to the bubble of a Pulser or Slider under the effects of another time bubble? So: How is a Bubbler's burning affected, if at all, by being encompassed by another time bubble? Scenario: Wayne is inside the range of Marasi's bubble, and he throws up one of his own. Assuming the compression factors to be equal, Wayne will experience 1 minutes in his bubble for every minute passing in real time. So he'll burn however much Bendalloy he normally burns to sustain a bubble of X size with Y compression factor for 1 minute subjective. The key factor is the subjective experience of time, I think: The MAG (<sarcasm> that wellspring of entirely accurate Realmatic knowledge </sarcasm> [but really, the MAG is great. Just not accurate on some rather critical parts) says you burn Bendalloy at 5 minutes per charge subjective, and this also makes sense intuitively. But what if we put Marasi inside Wayne's speed bubble instead of the other way around? So time passes "normally" for those two while an area around the bubble is Pulsed. That's all well and good, but how is that exterior bubble being sustained? Cadmium within Bendalloy: Is Marasi burning less Cadmium than usual, since each second of her burning corresponds to many seconds when she would be burning if not affected by a speed bubble? If so, then what about the area corresponding to Wayne's speed bubble? That has to be sustained at a normal rate if she wants to properly cancel his bubble out and gain a "normal" passage of time, it would seem. But then we get a weird variable bubble-within-a-bubble-within-a-bubble effect, with the area that happens to correspond to Wayne's bubble getting special treatment. I think, then, that encompassing Marasi in a speed bubble ought to have some rather dramatic effects. I would say that her burn rate stays constant--which it really should, when you think about it, rather than being lowered against her will--and her slow bubble is getting a ton of extra energy: tens of times more per second than usual, at the least. It is as if her burn rate has been multiplied by whatever the compression factor of Wayne's bubble is, a super-flare just short of the Duralumin. Where to put this energy, though? As far as the part of her bubble within Wayne's bubble is concerned, everything is going normally. But the parts outside are getting an unexpected boost in energy, and need to put it somewhere. Increased compression: It could go into increasing the compression factor or Marasi's bubble. If so, Wayne's bubble would behave it was simply under the effects of one of Marasi's normal bubble, while the rest of the Cadmium bubble would be going crazy-slow. If so, then Marasi's time bubble would nearly smother Wayne's, with the the region encompassed by Marasi's entire time bubble moving at a the pace of a glacier with a bead of water moving alongside it, compared to the bullet of the rest of the world. If the normal Cadmium bubble gives you 100s on the outside for every 1s inside, then this one will give 10,000s outside for every one inside, while retaining the 100:1 ratio within Wayne's bubble. If Marasi had enough Cadmium to make 10,000s pass outside in 100s inside, then this bubble will last for the full 10,000 seconds in real time. Marasi and Wayne will experience 100 seconds, while those outside of Wayne's speed bubble will experience 1. Problem: This doesn't account for power gain. Assuming that Marasi is maintaining a constant burn, subjective, we're getting an absurd amount of time-distortion for free. This is because the increased compression factor of the slow bubble compounds back onto Marasi within Wayne's bubble, redoubling its longevity. Increased size: So we go to the other direction the energy from Marasi's "Bendalloy burst" can go: out. I would suggest that the size of Marasi's bubble would increase, while its compression factor remained constant. So Marasi experiences 1 second for every 100 seconds experienced within the rest of her bubble, as usual, but this 1 second is also experienced in real time. So her bubble dies out 100 times faster than usual, and all the extra energy goes towards increasing its size, encompassing and slowing more objects. I'd say the second option is nearly necessary, at this point, given the alternative. Do any other possibilities spring to mind for anyone? Bendalloy within Cadmium: And now we get to where I was trying to get for the FTL thread. I do hope you understand why I thought this needed its own thread What if Wayne was off to the side at the perimeter of Marasi's slow bubble: encompassed himself, but with about half of his speed bubble protruding. What happens to his bubble? The parts inside Marasi's bubble are getting their normal flow of energy, so they ought to be fine. But the parts outside are getting 1/100th what they expect. Disparate compression factors still don't make sense, so it seems we're left to shrinking the real-time portion of the bubble to cover 1/100 the area it normally does. But what if Wayne was standing on the outside of Marasi's bubble's perimeter? In that case, the half inside the slow bubble would be getting 100 times more energy than usual. So what does it do? Balloon out to 100 times its normal volume, it would seem. All of this is well and good, but things can get... weird. Weird Scenarios: (WTLR?! FTL? Here!? HOW!!!!!???) EDIT: Tell a lie! I got a bit ahead of myself. Overlapping regions that don't touch the bubbler should just cancel out, ala canon. Duh. Although... maybe they "cancel out" because of bubble-extension, to a certain extent, or bubble-extension is still a factor. I'll leave the text here, because I wrote it and it may still be applicable, but it's by no means as sure as I erroneously thought a few minutes ago. EDIT 2: I suppose the cancellation is just a 1v1 battle for space-time-warping supremacy. In that case, the time distortion is an effect on an area, rather than the objects within that area... But that doesn't mesh with the Cognitive nature of time-bubble occupancy, really, since bubbles seem to work on the level of objects. This does require some thought. --- Scenario: Wayne outside Marasi's bubble, at the perimeter. Marasi has walked to near the perimeter of that self-same bubble, but is on the inside and out of range of Wayne's normal speed bubble. Wayne casts his bubble. The half in the bubble expands drastically. Marasi is encompassed, now experiencing 1s/s--or she would be, if this didn't increase the size of her slow bubble. So Wayne is now encompassed by Marasi's slow bubble. His energy delivery to his own speed bubble normalizes, shrinking it back down to normal. So now Marasi is outside of its effects. So her bubble shrinks too. So now Wayne is outside her bubble's effects, so the half of his bubble inside Marasi's slow bubble expands. So Marasi is encompassed... Yeah. And this all might happen in a split second each time, if not instantaneously. I suppose a slower-than-instant expansion/collapse of the bubbles would allow for a stable oscillation between states, but still, this isn't a good thing. .... Or this stable oscillation between states just unlocked the real secret to FTL. Meaningfully, in such a scenario, we have a constantly expanding and collapsing Cadmium bubble. Expanding by tens of times in volume, mind you. Might do some funky things to space-time, I'd say. Maybe a way to actually achieve a warp field? We've now reached beyond the scope of my (pseudo-) competency. Physics dudes? ---- We still have nested Slider/Slider and Cadmium/Cadmium to consider... Maybe later. This is getting long enough as is. --- Aw, why not. It should be fast. Bendalloy within Bendalloy: Bubble of bubbled misting(s) expands. Could get oscillation with this as well, I believe. Cadmium within Cadmium: Bubble of bubbed misting(s) shrinks. Also a chance of oscillation. Wow, long. Sorry. Really. Any thoughts, anyone? EDIT 3: Oh yeah, I kind of forgot the reason I'd started all this. In my defense, it is an involved and fascinating topic. So in my FTL thread, I have a ship within a Cadmium bubble within a duralumin/nicrosil-induced massive Bendalloy bubble. So both bubblers are encompassed by the other's bubble. So by the logic I've outlined already, the Cadmium bubble should expand--a lot--when the Pulser is hit by the Bendalloy bubble. The Bendalloy bubble should then proceed to shrivel when it hits any area outside the influence of the Cadmium bubble, since it's getting less energy than it needs. So the full size and effectiveness of the Bendalloy bubble is only realized when it's in contact with the Cadmium bubble. I guess we're lucky the Cadmium bubble is traveling with the ship, then. I think we're still good.

I believe he normally wears average noblemen's clothing. If you have the MAG, there's a (not-technically canonical) illustration from Inkthinker on page 490. Here's an illustration of a noble wearing a suit (second from the right), also. EDIT: As for colors, noblemen's clothing is normally described as being "subdued" or the like, I believe.

Here are the interior illustrations for the Rithmatist, if you haven't found them yet.

Perhaps. It's "based on how large the curve of their wave is", which is a tad unclear. I discussed this with Weiry a while back. The point remains the same either way, so I suppose it doesn't matter in this context.