Shardcast: Lord of Scars


We have an in-depth, meaty Shardcast for you this week, on the Lord of Scars. Big Rhythm of War and cosmere spoilers in this. Like really. Also, some of the things we discuss here were in the Brandon episode last week, but hopefully you don't terribly mind.

This week we have Eric (Chaos), Ian (Weiry), Evgeni (Argent), Alyx (Feather), and Matt (Comatose)! Thank you to Alyx for editing this. There were some pretty significant rendering issues this time. Thaidakar really didn't want this episode out, I suppose.

0:00:00 - Introduction
0:01:37 - Who is the Lord of Scars, exactly?
0:08:42 - The Body Issue
0:38:08 - Morality, Character in Context, and Feather has Complicated Feelings
1:09:13 - Short spoilers for The Prestige
1:10:29 - Cognitive Shadows and Intent
1:20:49 - Avatars
2:15:08 - Harmony and Southern Scadrial
2:26:05 - Relationship with Marsh
2:37:46 - Final Thoughts
2:44:52 - Who's That Cosmere Character
2:51:57 - Sign Off

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Actually swore and laughed when I saw the run time! Hilarious and amazing! Keep up the good work! 

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Spren of Kindness

Posted (edited)

Yay!  I've been bored for hours, now I have something to engage me!

Edit: This just in: Kelsier is a PowerPuff Girl.

Edited by Spren of Kindness
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teknopathetic

Posted (edited)

I wonder if a divine breath wish could give the Lord a body? A soulstamp using those connection cables? The metal chain and divine rights from Threnody?

Edited by teknopathetic
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If Kel had the Bands of Mourning, is it possible TLR had some knowledge about Hemalurgy stored in his copperminds? That would give Kelsier a big advantage in figuring out what he does so quickly.

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2 hours ago, JesterLavorre said:

If Kel had the Bands of Mourning, is it possible TLR had some knowledge about Hemalurgy stored in his copperminds? That would give Kelsier a big advantage in figuring out what he does so quickly.

WoB is that TLR did not create the BoM. The Sovereign was involved. I ran into that one by accident.

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Kingsdaughter613

Posted (edited)

Worth noting: Kelsier wonders why he can’t bring himself to go Beyond, then stops that train of thought abruptly. And, unlike Vin, Kelsier was twice Commanded to Survive by Preservation. I think those Commands had a much greater effect than holding Preservation.

Brandon has clarified that Kelsier did care about the Skaa and it was part of his motivation. 

“Kelsier is definitely a heroic figure. He did a lot of right things. But Kelsier is much closer to being a villain than people see, because he was in the best place for him possible, which is being capable of burning something down. He is just really good at tearing stuff down, and he is a great agent of chaos in that regard, and great at coming up with masterful ways to mess up what other people are doing to get what he wants. And what he wanted in that story happened to align very well with the needs and interests of the general population, and he genuinely wants to do good and right by them. It's not like he's some antihero who is accidentally doing the right things. But he is arrogant; he is very, very driven; and he is very, very dangerous; which are a combination that could have led to disaster in other circumstances.”

My daughter has the same problem as the Southerners, btw. Her’s was caused by a TBI. She can literally freeze in mildly cold weather. She has been cold in 90 degree weather so...

Also, from 2019 on Brandon has said RAFO! to whether or not Kell will appear on screen on Roshar.

Edit: Also, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it’s obviously a chicken.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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6 hours ago, JesterLavorre said:

If Kel had the Bands of Mourning, is it possible TLR had some knowledge about Hemalurgy stored in his copperminds? That would give Kelsier a big advantage in figuring out what he does so quickly.

Vin says in Well of Ascension that they ended up destroying the Lord Ruler's bracers to get out the little bit of atium that was in them. I think that the legend of the Bands being the Lord Ruler's was a big red herring that Kelsier set up to distract people.

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20 minutes ago, Marethyu316 said:

Vin says in Well of Ascension that they ended up destroying the Lord Ruler's bracers to get out the little bit of atium that was in them. I think that the legend of the Bands being the Lord Ruler's was a big red herring that Kelsier set up to distract people.

Ah, all right. Forgot about that.

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I don't buy the mistwraith theory at all. It is wishfull thinking.

  • I doubt there are any mistwraiths post-catacendre. Harmony presumably restored them to people.
  • Even if you posit some occult hemalurgic bindpoint on an essentially formless creature, why should this be any more effective than say, spiking a cow? Per MeLaan, biologically speaking humans are much closer to cows than mistwraiths/kandra.

Which gives me this funny image now of Spook stalking the plains of the Elendel basin hemalurgic spike in hand, trying to stab a wild cow in the eye, getting chased off by bulls, Beldre increasingly questioning her life choices...

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Child of Hodor

Posted

Great show! A few thoughts:

Cognitive Shadow Insanity

What Vasher was talking about with intent changing them over time is different from what's up with the Heralds. Vasher is of Endowment, gift giving etc. and since coming to Roshar he gave up Nightblood by "mistake" (probably he went to the Valley to swap Light for Breath and they made him leave the sword as the Bane) and then became an Ardent. They are effectively slaves who legally own no property. So he gave away everything he owned. As Ardent he is a teacher of sword He is much more giving now than he probably was at the start. 

Vasher warns Kaladin not to trust the Fused because they are of Odium and the intent influences them more and more over time. We see that isn't all consuming, because Leshwi was able to preserve some of her integrity and sense of right and wrong. She doesn't let revenge or hatred rule her.  

Herald Madness

The Heralds madness is

1) They are cognitive shadows who endured thousands of years of constant war and torture. They are all afraid of ever having to endure it again and have been living with that fear for 4,500 years. 

2) They are of Honor and they broke their big Oath.

3) 4,500 years of living with the guilt of having abandoned their friend to torture and lying to the world about it.

I think a big part of it is they hate themselves now and these thoughts directly influenced them in a more profound way than they would a human due to their Cognitive Shadow nature. They've inverted from what they once were. 

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On the topic of Kelsier's body being somehow being formed from a mistwraith: could the fact that mistwraiths were originally formed from Terris feruchemists partially explain how he then gained feruchemical powers? Interesting line of thought. 

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Czernobog

Posted (edited)

Tangential thought, having just finished a reread of Bands yesterday, Khriss says in the ars arcanum

Quote

On Scadrial, someone with one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power is called “Twinborn.” The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study.

Does this extra "effect" only arise for natural-born blendings of Investiture, or does hemalurgy also grant the same sorts of effects? Tying it back to Kelsier, does he possess the extra "effects" from blending allomancy and feruchemy?

Edited by Czernobog
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7 hours ago, Czernobog said:

Tangential thought, having just finished a reread of Bands yesterday, Khriss says in the ars arcanum

Does this extra "effect" only arise for natural-born blendings of Investiture, or does hemalurgy also grant the same sorts of effects? Tying it back to Kelsier, does he possess the extra "effects" from blending allomancy and feruchemy?

Since he's a Mistborn and has all sisxteen powers he doesn't get those effects.  There's a Wob on that.

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8 hours ago, Nesh said:

Since he's a Mistborn and has all sisxteen powers he doesn't get those effects.  There's a Wob on that.

Mixing of allomantic abilities is not what Khriss was referencing with respect to blending investiture leading to an added effect, I think. It was specifically in reference to Twinborn, which is mixing allomancy and feruchemy.

My more general question is whether or not hemalurgic allomancy blended with hemalurgic feruchemy would lead to that added effect.

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48 minutes ago, Czernobog said:

Mixing of allomantic abilities is not what Khriss was referencing with respect to blending investiture leading to an added effect, I think. It was specifically in reference to Twinborn, which is mixing allomancy and feruchemy.

My more general question is whether or not hemalurgic allomancy blended with hemalurgic feruchemy would lead to that added effect.

Quoting from the resonance article which is the mechanic to which you are referring:

Quote

An individual with many powers, such as a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist, may lose this added effect.[6] With so many powers, the individual powers effectively wash out any resonance. It is still possible for such people to have a resonance, but it would be much less pronounced.[7] Temporarily gaining additional powers, such as from the Bands of Mourning, would not deprive someone of a resonance they previously had. Someone with one power who began using the Bands of Mourning might develop a resonance between their original power and the Bands.[5] It is possible for a Surgebinder with multiple Honorblades/Nahel Bonds to develop a resonance or resonances between the four Surge

With the sheer amount of powers Kell might have at this point, any resonance would likely be negligible.

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Okay soooo I am new here are all cosmere spoilers allowed? 

You guys started to talk about Dawnshards and then you all stopped! Why?? I feel like its pretty clear from the way the "shivers" scene is written that Kelsier is now a dawnshard with the command SURVIVE.  I don't know if it was "used" on him in the pits and then given to him when Fuzz died or like partially given to him in the pits?  I think either way, the entire time we have known Kelsier, he has been imbued with this command.  

The reason I consider this important is that from the novella we get the sense that the dawnshards are going to impact their host in a similar way that the regular shard's intents do.  So Kelsier, the entire time we've known him, has been Commanded (capital C) to Survive.  I don't think he refuses to move on because he himself didn't want to move on and be with Mare and Vin, I think he couldn't.  And that's an important distinction regarding his character and speaks positively for him.  

Kelsier is interesting because he is the character who my opinion of has been impacted the most by WoBs.  If I hadn't read any of Brandon's continuous comments on how fantastic of a villain Kelsier would be, I would think of him in the same way that I think of Shallan/Vin/Kaladin/Siri/the rest of our protagonists.  But still, I mean, any character could be a villain in the right circumstance.  To many soldiers and Listeners, Kaladin is an evil mass murderer, and he's one of the cleaner characters, morally speaking.  

I think that Brandon's words have swayed us all to think of Kelsier as more of a potential villain than we normally would.  Based on his canonical actions, he is flawed but overall good (I was frustrated with secret histories in a similar way that Feather was).  He is on the same moral ground as like Vin and Dalinar and Shallan.  Maybe not Taln/Kaladin level lol. 

I don't think he is going to end up as a villain in the same way that Rayse and the Toad and Moash are.  I think he may do dumb things and I think his dawnshard is going to drive him to do more dumb things, but at the end of the day he's going to be a positive force in the cosmere.  I think Brandon is pushing us to consider him a villain because he will at some point be acting counter to our other main characters, but I think that's just a middle piece of his journey.  I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the day Kelsier actually is the main hero of the cosmere.  It'll just be a rocky road getting there.

Edited by RustSharertheWise
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when I saw this shcardcast showing up I couldn't wait to watch it. It's still long, so I wasn't able to finish it last night, but I am excited to. I don't really have any theories to share, but I look forward to hearing yours. (the panelists' and the listeners')

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If I had to apply a single word to Kelsier it wouldn't be good or bad, it would be reckless.

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On 2/9/2021 at 11:07 AM, Hoid's Brother said:

If I had to apply a single word to Kelsier it wouldn't be good or bad, it would be reckless.

This. Just this. He is so reckless. But he’s also a planner. I think he’s at his most dangerous when his planning and his recklessness coincide.

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16 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This. Just this. He is so reckless. But he’s also a planner. I think he’s at his most dangerous when his planning and his recklessness coincide.

Totally agree. It’s a great description

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