Hoid really was tricked

[Trusk'our he/him]

                Alright, I know that this topic has been discussed and argued about a lot already, and the points that I’m about to bring up may have already been used, but I recently re-read Rhythm of War, and I think that I found some good points regarding this debate.

                In chapter 99, “Not Bound”, it is shown that Hoid (Wit) wrote up a contract to bind Odium in the contest of champions. Part of this contracts would protect Hoid from Odium’s attacks, as he would be counted as a liaison for Honor for the duration of the agreement. Hoid also mentions that he knows Rayse, and seems to very, very confident in his knowledge.

                In chapter 112, “Terms”, Odium surprise visits Dalinar to make final terms on the contest of champions. Dalinar shows the contract made by Hoid to Odium, but Odium doesn’t accept the terms set out on it. Instead, he and Dalinar come up with a different agreement together, one that, as it so happens, doesn’t protect Hoid. In this very chapter (page 1173), Dalinar thanks Renarin in his mind for making his future unknown to Odium, but this also reminds us, the readers, that Hoid can’t see what’s going to happen here either, due to Renarin’s interference.

                Later, in chapter 113, “Emotion”, Taravangian ends up replacing Rayse as the Vessel of Odium, but Taravangian’s future is also currently being protected by Renarin (and Odium himself, since he also has future sight), so Hoid wouldn’t be able to foresee this event either.

Finally, in the Epilogue, “Dirty Tricks”, Hoid goes to meet Odium, who he still presumes to be Rayse, who he knows well and understands. Unfortunately, Hoid doesn’t know Taravangian nearly as well (if at all; I can’t remember them ever meeting before), and he doesn’t even know that Taravangian is the new Odium, after all. This lack of knowledge combined with the actual deal that was made between Dalinar and Odium left Hoid open to attack, allowing Odium to remove some of Hoid’s memories, hiding the truth that Rayse was replaced, and that someone who abilities were far more unknown was now holding the reigns.

Now, to be fair, in chapter 99, one of the things that Hoid likes so much about Jasnah is that she’s paranoid, which likely reflects Hoid’s own paranoia. I would not put it past Hoid to have somehow made copies of his memories in case an event like the one between him and Taravangian ever occurred (perhaps using copper feruchemy compounding?), but I don’t see enough evidence for it currently to be thoroughly convinced either.

Anyway, I enjoyed coming up with this explanation of what I think really happened, and I hope that you guys enjoyed it as well!

(As a side note, this is the longest post I’ve ever made!)

[EddyJ he/him]

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e14990

Yeah, Brandon has confirmed that Hoid was tricked by confirming that he will figure it out in the early chapters of Stormlight 5. (See link above)

[+mdross81 he/him]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

In chapter 112, “Terms”, Odium surprise visits Dalinar to make final terms on the contest of champions. Dalinar shows the contract made by Hoid to Odium, but Odium doesn’t accept the terms set out on it. Instead, he and Dalinar come up with a different agreement together, one that, as it so happens, doesn’t protect Hoid.

This has been debated elsewhere, but I don't agree with this take, that the terms ultimately settled upon do not protect Hoid.

Rather, it seems to me they used Hoid’s contract as a starting point from which to negotiate. Odium pointed out certain terms that he couldn’t agree to from that proposal and they went back and forth from there. I mean he does “wave dismissively” at it, but the next line is about how he doesn’t want any more talk of delays or half measures, meaning they scrap the 1,000 year portion of the original. But otherwise the crux of it seems the same.

Plus, if Hoid were no longer protected by the contract, then these lines in epilogue wouldn't make sense:

Quote

I noticed your touch on the contract, a dramatic voice said in his head.

"You've always been a clever one," Wit said. "Was it my diction that clued you in, my keen bargaining abilities, or the fact that I included my name in the text?"

and later, here's Odium thinking:

Quote

Let me see ... I cannot harm you. But here, you have used this other Investiture to store your memories, haven't you? Because you've lived longer than a mortal should, you need to put the excess memories somewhere. I can't see your mind, but I can see these, can't I?

...

I don't believe this will cause you actual harm ... Odium said. Yes, it seems my predecessor's agreements will allow me to -

Seems to me that the final terms still include Hoid as a contractual liaison.

I suppose it's possible that Odium just needs to make it seem like he can't hurt Hoid so that Hoid continues to believe he is protected. But given the historical animosity and Hoid's previous references to needing hide from Odium, I feel like Odium would just attack him here if Hoid were not, in fact, protected.

Also, FYI, this probably should go in either the Stormlight or Cosmere forums because it's got spoilers and seems to be a theory rather than a question.

[Chaos he/him]

I moved this to the Stormlight Archive as this wasn't really a question and more a theory.

[Going_North_cal]

10 hours ago, EddyJ said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e14990

Yeah, Brandon has confirmed that Hoid was tricked by confirming that he will figure it out in the early chapters of Stormlight 5. (See link above)

you got me reading through this WoB instead of theater homework.

Should I be angry,  or happy, or both?

[EddyJ he/him]

11 hours ago, Theldragor said:

you got me reading through this WoB instead of theater homework.

Should I be angry,  or happy, or both?

Happy, hopefully. Glad to help!

[Going_North_cal]

6 hours ago, EddyJ said:

Happy, hopefully. Glad to help!

We'll say happy, because it was a good distraction, and I was still able to finish my work before it was due

[daypast17]

We do know one thing Wit was wrong/fooled about. He was completely convinced Rayse was the true danger and not the shard Odium. Both Sazed and the unnamed dragon attempt to correct him in their response letters.

He refused to see Rayse as wounded, desperate, and never as clever as he assumed.

Edited December 1, 2021 by daypast17

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

In pretty the "unnamed dragon" is called frost, and is a long term acquaintance of hoid