Raistlin Posted November 3, 2021 Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) Hi All, I know I'm late to the party, but I've finished RoW only a few days ago and wanted to share my thoughts on it. Overall, I think the best way to describe my impression of the book is to refer to the general from the beginning of it, who said "the world is changing and I'm not sure if I should be happy about it or not". In a lot of ways, I feel like all the building blocks I was given before did create a tower, just for it to be immediately knocked over. And while there were individual awesome moments in the book, the sum of the parts was lesser than the whole. That said, I am aware that it's the 1st readthrough and I'll probably change my mind about some of the things during the re-read I'll try to break down my thoughts per character and hope I manage to cover the main points without forgetting anything (which will probably happen). Warning - Long post Navani "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds" - I didn't feel like she's a strong enough character to be a main POV. For me, her main role in this book is to provide the info dump (of a LOT of new information) and most of her chapters read like a physics lecture (and equally boring). In character personalization terms, I liked her even less. For the entire time we've known her, her thing was that she's "not a scholar". However, with the lack of explanation of what "a scholar" IS, I read it as academic achievement. As is- her expected role in life (noblewoman, wife of the king, etc) prevented her from going to college and getting a degree. I understand that this is sore point for her, apparently to a level where her entire identity is tied in this concept, but I never got a feeling that she's not a scholar because she tried to be and was lacking in some way or that she thinks she's just not smart enough. There was an attempt to bring some other self-esteem issues in earlier chapters but the main beat is still the scholarly thing and it remains to be the beat she marches to for the rest of the book. Once she gets the opportunity to just sit and study, she discards all other concerns and just ENJOYS the opportunity to study (I know that she also makes traps and stuff, but it feels like an afterthought to THE KNOWLEDGE). Her devotion to knowledge for the sake of knowledge (and disregard of any implications and potential harmful uses for her discoveries) actually reminded me of Jasnah and her mindset. This is why I agree with the tower spern- In my opinion, Navani is still not worthy of the bond. I know that she had a personal breakthrough and finally managed to get that desired official MA, but that doesn't relate to the reasons the spern didn't want to bond with her in the first place. The spern has issues with the fact that Navani is developing technology that kills spern. To which Navani constantly replies "sure, we'll find a way to work around it. Someday. In the meantime, look at what new cool thing I discovered, that's potentially even more dangerous to you and spernkind". For me, the only reason Navani managed to bond the tower is that for the tower it was a choice of bonding Navani or dying. Life before death in its finest. Navani's strength as a character, for me, was always the small moments like when she misses her son or being so overwhelmed by grief that she runs outside to write a huge glyph, or fears Szeth (because, honestly, he's terrifying and for some reason everyone else ignores it), and I wish we had more moments like these from her in this book. * Apparently, she's also a genius as she's learned all of science and discovered quantum physics in only two weeks. Dalinar - his time in the book was mostly a setup for the next one so I have nothing much to say about him. I did like his interaction with Syl - it was adorable! I will say that I, as a reader, have no idea what was possible to do or not so stormafather shouting "it's impossible" all the time was pointless after a while. Renarin - It's starting to get annoying how he always shows up, says something cryptic, and then we don't hear about him again until the next time he does it. I suspect that he's not getting any screentime is because spending time with him will reveal some "big secret" that is planned to be grandly revealed in later books. Jasnah - I like her and she's usually one of my favorite characters, but this time I got the feeling that the book is leaning heavily on her superior intellect to a point she's a bit like a computer that's trying to learn human emotions. In a way, she's trying to be more like Navani (emotions over intellect) while Navani is going through the opposite process. She also reminded me of Taravangian, in the way that he has emotions completely separated from intellect (though in his case, the separation is manufactured). However, while the smart Tav belittles the emotions of the stupid Tav, the smart Jasnah is actively trying to learn emotions. Plot-wise I have no idea where she's headed but I don't think she'll stop at being the queen. Maybe she'll pick up a shard? perhaps Odium himself? Adolin- Nothing to say except that he's awesome It is convenient though, that Maya was called as a witness. I wonder what would have happened if it went any other way. His father issues also parallel those of Kaladin in a nice way, though I'm not sure what Adolin thinks Dalinar wants him to be (unlike Lirin, where it's clear what he expects from Kaladin). Shallan - Ugh. Just ugh. I am so done with her. I know there are theories that she's going to be a world hopper, and what can I say except- bon voyage, Shallan. Bon voyage. Storywise- I did think that formless was the spy and that she wrangled Pattern and the others to play along with her and the truth seemed a bit underwhelming since the formless buildup seemed waisted. I also thought that the big secret she's trying to forget was the existence of another (now dead, by Shallan's hands) sibling. Or that the mom is not her real mom (since the real mom is dead, again, by Shallan). The second spern reveal is also underwhelming, mainly because it was an option that was never presented to us. They did meet the deadeye earlier in the book, but without any context to the meeting, the final reveal felt disconnected. It is believable, in terms of world-building, but it felt like it came out of the blue just for the surprise effect. I also have a question about the early bond- I know we haven't seen any children boding spren (aside from Lift, but she didn't say the ideals until much later) and I certainly don't belittle the pain of a lonely child, but shouldn't the ideals come with INTENT? I mean, it's not enough to just say the words. They also have to mean something so that implies an understanding of greater ideals, something I'm not sure a child under 11 is capable of. In the end, I feel like Shallan didn't make much progress herself. She did react to outside events that forced her to face whatever issues she had, but that's because she had absolutely no other choice. No change felt like it originated from within her and any personal growth and healing. When left to her own devices, her progress was actually going backward and hiding (to a point she created yet another persona). Honestly, the best part was when even Veil (a fragment of Shallan herself!) was so fed up with Shallan that she threw the towel and just LEFT. Hilarious! ** We all remember that Shallan killed Ilai, right? which is funny since Shallan's husband killed Ilai's husband. Perhaps it's a couple's thing? A couple that murders another couple together and all? Going forward, I want the two of them to break up, perhaps on the grounds of her going traveling while he doesn't want to/ can't join. I don't actually mind them together that much but this breakup will provide him a chance to stand up for himself (and not play along with whatever crazy new idea she got) and for her to have a conflict from her "new life" that's not directly connected to her past trauma. Let's see how she manages in life when she doesn't have the past to fall back onto as an excuse. Venli- Just like Navani, I feel like her main purpose as a main character is the info dump, just from another point of view. Just like Navani, Venli is also not a strong character to pull of so much screen time since both were extremely passive throughout the book. However, Unlike Navani, who at least was passionate about science, I didn't get any driving forces in Venli that could make for an interesting read. We did get the flashbacks that were engaging, but today's Venli just wants to run and hide somewhere and cares for little else. Even the underground group she formed feels like a side effect of her wish to run away and less like a determined goal to save the listeners. It does change towards the end of the book, especially after she discovers her Listeners powers (which are really cool btw) but still, the overall arc was not an engaging read. Just to clarify, I did like her story and her personal struggles with her past self and the end resolution, I just think it's not enough to hold for half of the book. ** It is nice that some of the fused decide to go with her to search for the lost tribe, but how will that work? Aren't their powers directly tied to Odium? what will happen when they're not connected to him anymore? And aren't their powers directly tied to Odium? As in, he can pinpoint them regardless of where they are? Is that a good idea to take them to the same people who try to hide from him? Kaladin- I will confess that I did try to read the book when it just came out and had to stop. The problem was that I started reading it when I was in a difficult place in my personal life, and Kal's story was too difficult for me to handle at the time, especially since there were no other characters strong enough to provide a counter view to his encompassing depression. Now that I did finish the book, all I can say is that - that's some really depressing stuff. Seriously, how much abuse can he take? Poor Kal. I'm glad that we finally got the 4th ideal but thematically, I expected it to be something else. I know that the ideal was guessed for a while now, but based on the struggles he went through in this book specifically, I thought it would be something like "I accept that not all should be protected in the same way" or something similar to this idea. I mean, he did invent mental health! Either way, 4th ideal. Yay! (and another convenience that Dalinar chose this specific storm to join stormfather). ** Lirin - I get the hate. I really do. For me, it's less about the pacifism and more about how it's tied with the image he has of Kal. Nothing aside from Kal being a surgeon will ever be good enough for Lirin, regardless of the number of weapons involved. I mean, Kal could have decided he wants to be a merchant but it still would disappoint Lirin. I do find it interesting though, that for both of them (father and son) there is only one idea of what fighting is. Not one of them raises the option of other ways to fight, like being a lawyer, for example (and inventing the justice system), or being a reporter (and inventing journalism), or even doing underground graffiti (and inventing graffiti, I guess). ** Syl- she's still great. I'm looking forward to seeing how her relationship with Kal evolves now that she's a grownup. *** I think Kal is destined to die. I hope I'm wrong, but he's the Stormblessed and now people follow his ideal. I think he'll be Kelzeir of this world - will become the legend to fuel the resistance for the second arc of the war. Notable mentions: New Odium- So cool. Did not see it coming at all. What will that mean for the magic systems? From what I understood, the magic rules were made by the shards, but designed by the beares. What will happen now when someone else has the shard? Szeth- Was he always this crazy? I also mentioned this before, but how is it that Navani is the only one to fear him? I feel like it's the natural response to him (aside from the assassin thing, he's also extremely creepy). Also, to think that all this could have ended if he just told Dalinar that Taravengian wants to talk with him for some reason. Boo Szeth. Lift- has a chicken now! She's also growing up, and it will be interesting to see how she deals with it. I imagine with a lot of grace and poise. Moash- F* Moash. But also, when he got blind, I couldn't help but remember the Melorian books by D.Eddigns where some people got permanently blind after seeing "the true face of god". I'm sure there are many other literary (real or fiction) pieces that mention similar things, but the Melorian is what came to my mind. Wit - I admit that I didn't like the world-hopping existence in previous books, but I was fine with it now since it's finally part of THIS world and not just a basket of easter eggs. I'm not a fan of wordplays or the smug all-knowing-but-will-not-tell-you-just-because characters so Wit never held any special interest for me and was even annoying at times. I am happy that he lost his memories since now it feels like a fair playing ground for everyone. It also indicates that the cosmere rules have been changed, which might provide an unexpected advantage for the heroes. Speaking of World hoppers - I understood that the leader was confirmed to be Kelzier. Now, I remember him being sided with the good guys (even though he went about it in a very roundabout way), so I'm guessing the GB will be the misunderstood ones and their goals are actually very philanthropic. My guess is that they're trying to resurrect the original god/ create a new one but they want to be the only ones to do it (that's why they're targeting others who know about the cosmere). Why would they want to do it? Not sure. Perhaps because they want to have one true god since "things were better back then", or "this is the natural state of the world and what we have now is an abomination". In any case, this is the danger to Roshar everyone is referring to because for the creation of the god there will be a need to combine all shards, and what will happen to the worlds they created when the shards are called home? Edited November 3, 2021 by Raistlin 2
Olmund Posted November 3, 2021 Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) Okay, I was super confused until your mention of the "tower spren" -- your topic title should read "RoW" (Rhythm of War, i.e., Book 4) rather than "WoR" (Words of Radiance, i.e., Book 2). Re:Navani, I think your issues do make sense -- though the fact that she's an artifabrian has been a part of her character since Book 1. Still, I can see how you'd be thrown a bit by having her turn into a super genius in this book and seemingly single-handedly make universe-altering discoveries. That said, she did have a bit of a "cheat," if you will -- she already knew inverse light was possible thanks to Gavilar's sphere, so it didn't really harm my suspension of disbelief while reading. Re:Stormfather, I think that his proclivity to declare things "impossible" is actually an important plot (and character) point -- Dalinar's choices to override these "laws" have had serious consequences (both good and bad), and I'm sure it will be a big aspect of the next book (as you say, RoW involves a lot of setup). Re:Shallan, I do agree that both she and Kaladin feel like they've regressed a great deal as characters in this book because of Brandon's (laudable) goal of semi-realistically depicting mental illness, and their greatest "victories" in this book involve a fair amount of deus ex machina (Shallan fusing with Veil, Kaladin's conversation with Tien). Re:Szeth, yes, he's been this crazy for a while (and worse in certain parts of previous books). Re:Wit, I'm also happy he got knocked down a peg during the epilogue. Edited November 3, 2021 by Olmund
AerionBFII he/him Posted November 3, 2021 Posted November 3, 2021 I was wondering how the hell you knew about a new Odium when you only read WOR. I thought I had missed some glaring foreshadowing. I had the exact quote running through my head when Navani was messing around with Anti Light. I agree with some if not all of your points about characters but people tend to gravitate to certain viewpoints. My friend who has too much of a social life to sign up to the 17th Shard - loves Venli and hates Kaladins viewpoints when he is not doing something awesome. I grew quickly bored of Venli and love Kaladin. It is great to vent after such a colossal read through though.
Frustration Posted November 3, 2021 Posted November 3, 2021 A few things You spelled Spren Spern a few times, not a big deal, but thought I'd mention HARD agree with Navani and Venli, especially Navani 2 hours ago, Raistlin said: ** It is nice that some of the fused decide to go with her to search for the lost tribe, but how will that work? Aren't their powers directly tied to Odium? what will happen when they're not connected to him anymore? And aren't their powers directly tied to Odium? As in, he can pinpoint them regardless of where they are? Is that a good idea to take them to the same people who try to hide from him? Odium cannot remove their power directly, or if he can we have only his bragging to back it up And he can't find them whenever he wants, except maybe in the Everstorm.
Tglassy Posted November 4, 2021 Posted November 4, 2021 I don't know, I liked all the Stormlight Physics lessons in the book. I'm interested in how it all works, so having a lot of Navani stuff where she's learning all that was some of my favorite parts. I actually wound up liking Raboniel, or however you spell her name. I could just FEEL how tired she was when she killed her daughter, and was like "No more rebirths!" It really drove home how LONG this war has been going on. I was never a huge fan of Venli and Eshonai. I mean, I like them ok, and they do provide a good perspective, so they're certainly necessary, but I just never got the love. Though, I do feel for Eshonai, just wanting to go out and see the world but not being able to. I don't really understand what Timbre sees in Venli, but whatevs. And Kaladin...goodness, I feel him. I've struggled with Depression for a long, long time. It just hits me. And it feels exactly how it's described here. I go through Kaladin sections and I just FEEL it. I relate so hard. The crushing agony, which is eventually replaced with a profound numbness to everything and everyone. And how in that place, the dark thoughts come, making you believe it was ALWAYS dark. No one EVER cared. Goodness. He got that nailed right on the head. At first, I was horrified at Kaladin being relieved of duty, but it just makes sense for the character. And as I read, I began to get excited about the prospect. Because he was trying to help people who feel like me. I don't have battle shock, but Depression can make it feel like that, sometimes. I've posted this elsewhere, but I think that Windrunners can't get to the 4th ideal until they've left the battlefield. But that's another topic. Lift has grown on me. And finding out WHY she asked the Nightwatcher what she did hit me in the feels. It's the type of thing a kid worries about. Growing up. Becoming someone different. Before they realize that we all become different people throughout our lives, even throughout the same year. It's just part of who we are. As for Shallan...I actually enjoy much of her stuff. In the first book, her chapters were a nice change of pace, being less about epic battles and more about this girl getting in over her head. In the second book, she was learning to stand on her own two feet, and learning her powers. She provides a nice counterpoint to Kaladin, and has different issues, which help her feel real. In book three, she started the whole Persona thing, and I wasn't a huge fan, and now, in book 4, she's full blown psychotic, basically. Having listened to the books over again, there are definitely signs that Pattern wasn't the same cryptic she'd bonded the first time, and there were definitely clues that she'd killed her spren. But she did seem to have a breakdown in this one. I suppose that's needed, though, to progress to the next ideal, in any Order. You have to break more. Kal had to not only admit, but accept, that he couldn't save everyone, and Shallan had to finally admit the last secret she'd been refusing to acknowledge. The previous Ideals were all hard to admit, and each one required the soul to break a little further in order to get to a place where they COULD say those ideals. So it makes sense that the anti would be upped when going for this next one. And I love Wit. I just love him. And I absolutely love that he is bonded, permanently as far as we can see, to Design, a Spren who has absolutely no imagination and calls him out on all his dumb sh*t. He totally deserves that. Either way, I enjoyed the book. It was a needed addition. Much was explained, and the characters developed well. 2
Inquisitor #5 Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: For the entire time we've known her, her thing was that she's "not a scholar". However, with the lack of explanation of what "a scholar" IS, I read it as academic achievement. I mean, she consistently downplays her own achievments and thinks about how she just enables other people to make advances. She's got major impostor syndrome and doesn't think she's worthy of being called a scholar because of it. And judging from earlier books, a scholar sits somewhere between a natural philosopher and proper scientist. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: The spern has issues with the fact that Navani is developing technology that kills spern. If you're talking about the fabrials, we have no evidence that they kill or even harm the spren. Other than possible psychological harm from being trapped. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: For me, the only reason Navani managed to bond the tower is that for the tower it was a choice of bonding Navani or dying. Life before death in its finest. That's fair, even if I disagree in part. But the threat obviously influenced the Sibling's choice. We also know that a Radiant can be a bad fit for their order, see Venli. Journey before Destination. Basically nobody starts out a perfect example of their order, the journey is more poignant that way and can reflect their growth. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Apparently, she's also a genius as she's learned all of science and discovered quantum physics in only two weeks. I mean, back in Way of Kings, Shallan rattles off her schooling to Jasnah, and she's from a backwater. Obviously Vorin noblewomen are supposed to have a certain level of schooling. Also, is it that hard to believe that Jasnah's mother is also intelligent? Also also, paired fabrials already do something like quantum entanglement at a macro level, so she might have had a leg up. Though I can't recall what exactly she does that could be called quantum physics. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: I, as a reader, have no idea what was possible to do or not so stormafather shouting "it's impossible" all the time was pointless after a while. I think that's kind of the point, the restrictions are falling away, the old rules don't apply and we're in uncharted territory with incredible and dangerous powers. It might also be a bit of a thing with how Dalinar keeps overruling the Stormfather, he might be straining the bond or playing with forces he can't begin to comprehend. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Jasnah She's wearing a mask pretty much all the time, so we're not used to seeing the overworked woman who tried desperately to save the world, only to come back to everything overturned and all the things she was working for snatched out from under her. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Plot-wise I have no idea where she's headed but I don't think she'll stop at being the queen. Maybe she'll pick up a shard? perhaps Odium himself? Ehh, I don't see that kind of ambition in her at all. And I highly doubt that Odium's Vessel would die again in short order. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: I did think that formless was the spy and that she wrangled Pattern and the others to play along with her and the truth seemed a bit underwhelming since the formless buildup seemed waisted. Before I start talking about this I want to make clear that I am not a system, so I will defer to any systems who wish to comment on the topic or correct me. That said, having read some discourse and statements from actual systems, I was hoping throughout the book that Formless wasn't the killer/spy, as IIRC the "evil alter" is a common media trope and I was hoping that Brandon's wish to represent things like neurodivergence in his books well, as well as sensitivity readers, would make him not take that path. Though I do think how you reacted is exactly how Brandon wanted you to react. Formless is set up as suspicious, but it's misdirection. And to be fair, Shallan denies that Formless is real, and that turns out to be true. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: The second spern reveal is also underwhelming, mainly because it was an option that was never presented to us. They did meet the deadeye earlier in the book, but without any context to the meeting, the final reveal felt disconnected. Huh, I found the foreshadowing of that so heavy-handed that I basically immediately thought that was the case. And I didn't even notice her "what if Adolin and Pattern knew the real her, what she'd done" bit from part one when I first read it. Seeing as Pattern has no problem with her killing her parents or being a (prospective) Ghostblood, it'd have to be something that he'd find bad, at least in her mind. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: I also have a question about the early bond- I know we haven't seen any children boding spren (aside from Lift, but she didn't say the ideals until much later) and I certainly don't belittle the pain of a lonely child, but shouldn't the ideals come with INTENT? I mean, it's not enough to just say the words. They also have to mean something so that implies an understanding of greater ideals, something I'm not sure a child under 11 is capable of I mean, when she recalls it, she thinks something like "truths spoken with the solemness of a child." The Cryptics only seem to care that the Truth be important to you, not that it exemplifies some lofty ideal. Also, Tien was on his way to bonding a Cryptic as well, soo... On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Honestly, the best part was when even Veil (a fragment of Shallan herself!) was so fed up with Shallan that she threw the towel and just LEFT. Hilarious! Uhm, did we read the same scene? She was an alter that Shallan created to protect herself. She decided that Shallan no longer needed that protection and reintegrated. (Which I've seen some systems have negative opinions on and some not.) On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: We all remember that Shallan killed Ilai, right? Yes On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Going forward, I want the two of them to break up, perhaps on the grounds of her going traveling while he doesn't want to/ can't join. I don't actually mind them together that much but this breakup will provide him a chance to stand up for himself (and not play along with whatever crazy new idea she got) and for her to have a conflict from her "new life" that's not directly connected to her past trauma You are aware they are married? And seem to love eachother? And that he's Highprince and how much of a scandal that would be? We also see that he does think for himself, it's not like Shallan put him up to snapping a Dalinar. Also, even if she travelled the world(s) without him, that wouldn't necessitate a breaking of their relationship. I also don't know when he has just done what she wants. He was made ambassador, not her, for instance. In addition, Vorin couples are very much a unit, we've heard remarks about how someone should get married so that he'd have a proper scribe. Shallan also has a lot of trauma to work through, aknowledging it is good, but you're not done with it just because of that. And seeing as therapy was basically invented, err, now, she doesn't have too much help available. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Let's see how she manages in life when she doesn't have the past to fall back onto as an excuse. Some people are just differently able. My own grab bag of diagnoses makes me unable to work a full 8 hour day, for instance. Not in that I couldn't do it, but I couldn't be functional if I did. And Shallan might be scarred by her past forever, just like Kaladin might always have PTSD. Given her ability to keep going as is, I'd think that she'd be highly functional if she managed to process her traumas in a healthy way. Also, I should note that I'm one of those people who never disliked Shallan. The closest was on my initial read of Way of Kings, when I found her chapters a boring break from the action at the Shattered Plains. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: I didn't feel like she's a strong enough character to be a main POV. For me, her main role in this book is to provide the info dump (of a LOT of new information) and most of her chapters read like a physics lecture (and equally boring). I can definitely see this being the case for people. Personally I loved the magic mechanics stuff, but then again, that is my favourite parts of these books. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Just like Navani, I feel like her main purpose as a main character is the info dump, just from another point of view. It is nice to get an insight into the Fused, their powers, administration, engineering, etc. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: However, Unlike Navani, who at least was passionate about science, I didn't get any driving forces in Venli that could make for an interesting read. To me her conflict comes from the interplay of her cowardice, her ego and her desire for freedom from the entire war, as well as her growing a conscience for all that she's done. She's a terribly flawed person having done terrible things, but she's trying to be better. Also, keep in mind that just like Navani and the Sibling and Hoid and Design, Venli and Timbre was a bond of desperation. But hey, to each their own. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: It does change towards the end of the book, especially after she discovers her Listeners powers (which are really cool btw) but still, the overall arc was not an engaging read. What listener powers? Or is that listener's? I'm not sure what this means. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Just to clarify, I did like her story and her personal struggles with her past self and the end resolution, I just think it's not enough to hold for half of the book. To be fair, it quickly turns into the Navani show, which, while highly enjoyable, isn't what the major focus of the Willshaper book should be. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Aren't their powers directly tied to Odium? what will happen when they're not connected to him anymore? Seeing how much Rayse blustered about taking back power from the Fused and how alive Leshwi and co are, seems like it was mostly bluster. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: I will confess that I did try to read the book when it just came out and had to stop. The problem was that I started reading it when I was in a difficult place in my personal life, and Kal's story was too difficult for me to handle at the time, especially since there were no other characters strong enough to provide a counter view to his encompassing depression. That is entirely fair. Personally the scene when Kaladin gets back to his rooms and, IIRC, collapses against the door, hit like a ton of bricks. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: I know that the ideal was guessed for a while now, but based on the struggles he went through in this book specifically, I thought it would be something like "I accept that not all should be protected in the same way" or something similar to this idea. We know from the scene where Lirin decides that Kaladin'll be a surgeon IIRC, that that still counts as protecting. So therapy would probably also count under that. And seeing as Kaladin's struggle from book 1 has been that he can't let go, it fits very well. It also fits with how he knows the words, essentially being at the fourth, but is unwilling to admit what they stand for. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: and another convenience that Dalinar chose this specific storm to join stormfather Isn't he just talking to the Stormfather to get intel on Urithiru? Then the Stormfather says that Kaladin jumped, Dalinar asks to see it and then insists he grant Kaladin more time. Or do I entirely misremember? If so, the convenience is more that that entire sequence happens during a highstorm. But media is full of conveniences, so it's not that big a deal if there are a few. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: I think Kal is destined to die. I hope I'm wrong, but he's the Stormblessed and now people follow his ideal. I think he'll be Kelzeir of this world - will become the legend to fuel the resistance for the second arc of the war. I really hope neither of these are true, for one, giving the character with depression a heroic death seems... iffy. For the other, I feel like it's too much of a retread of Mistborn, which would be boring. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: What will that mean for the magic systems? From what I understood, the magic rules were made by the shards, but designed by the beares. What will happen now when someone else has the shard? Pretty sure nothing will change unless the Vessel makes conscious alterations. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Szeth- Was he always this crazy? I mean, he spent something like seven years with the mindset that he had to do basically anything the holder of his Oathstone said, but that he was still responsible for actions he was comitting on their behalf. Then he started questioning his place in the world after his first encounter with Kaladin, then, once he comes to terms with that he was never Truthless, he thinks he could have stopped at any time, leading to him giving up his life at the end of Words of Radiance. Then Nale ressurects him against his will and recruits him. Then after spending time with Nale's cult and the unhinged Herald himself, they all choose to follow the singers. Then he sees Ishar with his father's Blade and gets told that his people apparently betrayed their principles (handing the Honorblade back) and that his father is dead. And over the course of the books he also sees a lot of people dead at his hands, and there's something wrong with you if that doesn't affect you. He already snaps twice towards the end of Words of Radiance, once when he decides to kill Adolin and once when he screams his lungs out about being named Truthless unfairly. Add to that that he's seen smart Taravangian and that he's apparently really gotten under Szeth's skin and he's even more off his rocker than usual when they interact. So no, probably not always this unhinged, but definitely so now. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Navani is the only one to fear him? I feel like it's the natural response to him (aside from the assassin thing, he's also extremely creepy). Might just be most people not interacting with him in any meaningful capacity, as well as the Radiants returning making him less of an inexplicable abstract murder machine. Add to that that he seems content to sit pretty in prison and the end of the world happening outside, and he might not be the kind of concern he once was. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Speaking of World hoppers - I understood that the leader was confirmed to be Kelzier. Of the Ghostbloods specifically, yep, Thaidakar is Kelsier. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: Now, I remember him being sided with the good guys (even though he went about it in a very roundabout way), so I'm guessing the GB will be the misunderstood ones and their goals are actually very philanthropic. I don't think the people who are fine with murder and putting children in cages will turn out to be misunderstood, personally. Kelsier was also only a hero by context, the Final Empire was just that bad. Kelsier enjoyed his work and justified killing of skaa who worked for the Lord Ruler as killing traitors. Kelsier wanted to kill a member of the rebellion as a show of power. He can't even answer the question of wether he did what he did for the skaa or for himself. And even if all they do is in service of a noble goal, I don't think the ends justify the means. On 2021-11-03 at 4:00 PM, Raistlin said: My guess is that they're trying to resurrect the original god/ create a new one but they want to be the only ones to do it (that's why they're targeting others who know about the cosmere). Why would they want to do it? Not sure. Perhaps because they want to have one true god since "things were better back then", or "this is the natural state of the world and what we have now is an abomination". Given Kelsier's reaction to supposed gods, I highly doubt it. They also wouldn't know what it was like back then. I think that Mraize is being truthful, even if he's not telling the whole truth, when he says power. Control of the most accessible and plentiful source of Investiture would be an incredible bargaining chip. I definitely think they're bad news for Roshar, I'm pretty sure they'd be fine if the entire planet burned as long as the highstorms keep blowing and (possibly) the spren exist. So yeah. That's my take. ¤_¤
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