The Lord Ruler's Allomantic Strength

[Wispsy he/him]

Maybe it's because he is the only inquisitor who happens to be friends with everyone who may possibly work against ruin?

[happyman he/him]

But truth be told, I'm not sure. Perhaps convenience. Marsh just ended up being in the right places at the right times.

Along these lines, I'd add that Ruin enjoyed killing people, by the end. He was also supremely confident in his ability to control the inquisitors, and for good reason. It was only purest luck that Marsh was in a situation to pull free at the last second. If he got to kill somebody and make one of his minions more powerful, he'd probably do it for lulz.

Id also add that storing age does have some uses. Being able to sneak in or out of a town/city/jail without being recognized would be handy during the early stages of Ruin's campaign to spike people. Imagine if Marsh had been able to get at Elend in a crowd as a child? He'd have had to cover his spikes, I'd imagine, but at the very least, it would change his height, hair or face (below a shroud, obviously).

[Catalyst21 he/him]

Along these lines, I'd add that Ruin enjoyed killing people, by the end. He was also supremely confident in his ability to control the inquisitors, and for good reason. It was only purest luck that Marsh was in a situation to pull free at the last second. If he got to kill somebody and make one of his minions more powerful, he'd probably do it for lulz.

Id also add that storing age does have some uses. Being able to sneak in or out of a town/city/jail without being recognized would be handy during the early stages of Ruin's campaign to spike people. Imagine if Marsh had been able to get at Elend in a crowd as a child? He'd have had to cover his spikes, I'd imagine, but at the very least, it would change his height, hair or face (below a shroud, obviously).

As for why Marsh..... Marsh was a seeker, add a spike to increase that and you can pierce copperclouds. If you can pierce copperclouds you can find the "rouge" mistborn and mistlings. If you find and capture them then you can steal power from them as opposed to someone who could be missed.

<segue>

actually, I am a little surprised that TLR had half-bloods killed at birth. I could understand why if the magic system was like Mythwalker, and power is shared along family lines, but its not.

It kind of makes more sense to have the halfbloods turned over to the steel ministry... Those with power, sacrificed to add power to the steel ministry. Those without, executed, because they would still have the genetic memory, and could pass it to their offspring.

</segue>

[Thor he/him]

Along these lines, I'd add that Ruin enjoyed killing people, by the end. He was also supremely confident in his ability to control the inquisitors, and for good reason. It was only purest luck that Marsh was in a situation to pull free at the last second. If he got to kill somebody and make one of his minions more powerful, he'd probably do it for lulz.

Id also add that storing age does have some uses. Being able to sneak in or out of a town/city/jail without being recognized would be handy during the early stages of Ruin's campaign to spike people. Imagine if Marsh had been able to get at Elend in a crowd as a child? He'd have had to cover his spikes, I'd imagine, but at the very least, it would change his height, hair or face (below a shroud, obviously).

For teh Evulz!!

Back on topic: Sneaking around without being recognized is rather hard if you have spikes in your eyes, no matter your age. Besides, the concept of sneaking around for Marsh and the other Inquisitors is one of not being seen (obligatory Monty Python joke; see what I did there?), as opposed to fooling others. Either way, I'm not sure that Atium allows you to change that much...anyone know more on Atium's Feruchemical limitations? Even if it were possible, a big flaw in that idea is that the spikes wouldn't change size and that would cause lots of problems, even for an Inquisitor. (Having 8 to 10 spikes in your chest as a physically strong adult doesn't take up an excessive amount of spce, but a child would have a quarter or less room for the spikes to fit in...there wouldn't be any room left for organs! And lets not even talk about the Marsh of HoA, with 20+ spikes...) It seems like reversing your age that much is out of its reach too. However, it IS a god metal...

As for why Marsh..... Marsh was a seeker' date=' add a spike to increase that and you can pierce copperclouds. If you can pierce copperclouds you can find the "rouge" mistborn and mistlings. If you find and capture them then you can steal power from them as opposed to someone who could be missed.[/quote']

That would be the reason why TLR/the Canton of Inquisition would choose someone like Marsh, not the reason why Ruin would choose Marsh to be his "champion," for lack of a better word. (Maybe avatar?) As has been mentioned, Ruin can find any Allomancer if he wants to. (He discovered a Coppercloud and sent Marsh to steal his power with a spike during a chapter in HoA.) The question "Why Marsh?" calls into question Ruin's decision to give Marsh the largest number of spikes, as opposed to a Mistborn Inquisitor, since all of the Allomancy spikes would give a MB Inquisitor a much higher strength than a comparable Misting-base Inquisitor, like Marsh. This leads me, and possibly some others, to think that there weren't any MB Inquisitors during WoA and HoA.

<segue>

actually, I am a little surprised that TLR had half-bloods killed at birth. I could understand why if the magic system was like Mythwalker, and power is shared along family lines, but its not.

It kind of makes more sense to have the halfbloods turned over to the steel ministry... Those with power, sacrificed to add power to the steel ministry. Those without, executed, because they would still have the genetic memory, and could pass it to their offspring.

</segue>

The problem with stealing powers from a young child/baby (if you ignore the obvious ethical issues...but these are Inquisitors we are talking about) is that you cannot know what Allomantic metal they have, if they even have one, as they haven't snapped yet. And you have to know what metal they have in order to steal it, since the metal of the spike (and bind point) varies with each metal. I suppose the Ministry could kidnap them, let them grow old enough to snap and then turn them over to the Inquisitors... That is pretty creepy. I am glad I don't live in TFE.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Thor

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

The thing about the spikes taking up too much space is that a hemalurgic spike effectively replaces organs that it punctures. Thus why Inquisitors, with their spiked eyes, aren't complete vegetables; the spikes in their heads effectively replace brain tissue. This principle applies with spikes placed in other parts of the body. Thus, if he reversed his age to the point of being a child, the spikes would probably replace even more organs during that time.

[Thor he/him]

The thing about the spikes taking up too much space is that a hemalurgic spike effectively replaces organs that it punctures. Thus why Inquisitors, with their spiked eyes, aren't complete vegetables; the spikes in their heads effectively replace brain tissue. This principle applies with spikes placed in other parts of the body. Thus, if he reversed his age to the point of being a child, the spikes would probably replace even more organs during that time.

Hmmm, I thought that the spikes just moved the organs around, by physically changing the anatomy of the creature, so much that a spike through each eye socket merely moves the brain around and a spike that should go through a lung or heart doesn't because the organs have moved. Though I can't seem to find anything that outright supports this...

[Satsuoni he/him]

I wonder if a Nicrosil misting could kill TRL while he was burning atium to replenish his youth storage. Imagine: a Nicrosil misting touches TLR , bursting his youth production to the level when the excess youth goes into him, rather than his bracers - TLR becomes a Zygote on the spot and dies horribly... Probably impossible, but a nice image.

As for the spikes/organs: It was said somewhere (probably in annotations) that the physiology of a spiked being does change, so the vital organs are displaced. I don't think it is instant, though. The spike does go through the brain/heart, and, if it has Hemalurgic charge it does not kill (usually), but may give some power if placed correctly, or nothing,if placed wrongly or is nearly discharged. The spirit of the being (or part of it, captured in spike) becomes stapled to the recipient's soul. The spike starts to change physiology afterwards. Some spikes become vital organs by themselves: removing them kills instantly. Others are redundant, like eye spikes of the Inquisitor - removing one does ot kill, removing two does. Yet others, like Vin's earring are easily removable without adverse effect (excepting the power loss).

The physiology change varies with spike, placement and stolen power (I assume), resulting in : gross (external) disfigurement (Koloss, spikes steal human strength), sentience (possibly specific to Kandra), and/or a lot of internal changes (Heart/brain displacement,etc) but few(er) external: Inquisitors. Some physiology changes may lead to death in the long run (again, Koloss), because they are not balanced (strength/ body mass without increasing heart endurance proportionally).

It is implied that the spike must pierce something in order to work:

TenSoon lay down, commanding the skin of his shoulder to part, and absorbed the spikes into his body. He moved them through muscles and ligaments—dissolving several organs, then re-forming them with the spikes piercing them.

, so I assume that the changes take place afterwards, with survival being dependant on the additional soul attached, rather than intact organs.

As for the TLR strength - I concur that he probably boosted himself, at least somewhat, by the power in the well, when he was rebuilding the world.

By the way, could anybody remind me, who were the original Allomancers? They were not terrismen (became Kandra), but why would Rashek give power to companions of Alendi? He seemed to dislike them...

[CrazyRioter she/her]

the original allomancers were various important people that helped TLR conquer the world.

[darniil he/him]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that they weren't any of Alendi's droogs. The Party line is that they were people who supported TLR, as CrazyRioter says, although there's no evidence that they were given their lerasium beads immediately after TLR reshaped the world. There was a lot of fighting right afterwards, and I imagine they all came at various points over the century or two that followed Rashek's use of the Well.

[happyman he/him]

Back on topic: Sneaking around without being recognized is rather hard if you have spikes in your eyes, no matter your age. Besides, the concept of sneaking around for Marsh and the other Inquisitors is one of not being seen (obligatory Monty Python joke; see what I did there?), as opposed to fooling others. Either way, I'm not sure that Atium allows you to change that much...anyone know more on Atium's Feruchemical limitations? Even if it were possible, a big flaw in that idea is that the spikes wouldn't change size and that would cause lots of problems, even for an Inquisitor. (Having 8 to 10 spikes in your chest as a physically strong adult doesn't take up an excessive amount of spce, but a child would have a quarter or less room for the spikes to fit in...there wouldn't be any room left for organs! And lets not even talk about the Marsh of HoA, with 20+ spikes...) It seems like reversing your age that much is out of its reach too. However, it IS a god metal...

It's a valid objection. You'll note I did talk about the "eyes" problem. Being roughly two feet shorter than usual could help you hide, even if you need to keep your face hidden the whole time. As for the organs and metallic spikes and age---that's trickier. I don't know all the answers. It would be kind of cool, though, if Atium could change the size of the spikes to make an "mini-inquisitor". It is a god metal, it's not completely out of the question.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

It's a valid objection. You'll note I did talk about the "eyes" problem. Being roughly two feet shorter than usual could help you hide, even if you need to keep your face hidden the whole time. As for the organs and metallic spikes and age---that's trickier. I don't know all the answers. It would be kind of cool, though, if Atium could change the size of the spikes to make an "mini-inquisitor". It is a god metal, it's not completely out of the question.

This brings up a good question... does the size of the spike matter?

some examples that suggest not:

Vin's Earring

Spook's Spike

The other "stealth spikes" similar to spooks

Kandra Spikes

Koloss Spikes

So if size doesn't matter.... why the oversize spikes for the inquisitors?

I can see where the eyespikes would be a useful intimidation, but what about the rest of them?

Would it be possible for TLR to make a "stealth inquisitor" using tiny spikes, that are fully embedded (ie pierce the back of the eye and the brain) such that they could then wrap their face (similar to what spook did) and present themselves as blind?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

the size of the spike determines how much of a charge it can hold, but even a small spike is enough to give Ruin influence over the person which was the goal with the "stealth spikes". The Inquistor's spikes were also meant to make them powerful agents, for TLR originally and then for Ruin, to do that, large spikes were necessary.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

the size of the spike determines how much of a charge it can hold, but even a small spike is enough to give Ruin influence over the person which was the goal with the "stealth spikes". The Inquistor's spikes were also meant to make them powerful agents, for TLR originally and then for Ruin, to do that, large spikes were necessary.

Vin's Earring and the Kandra spikes seem to defy that logic.

[darniil he/him]

Where were the sizes of the Blessings mentioned? I was under the impression that they were around 6" - 8" long.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

Where were the sizes of the Blessings mentioned? I was under the impression that they were around 6" - 8" long.

I'll see if I can find a quote tonight.

[Thor he/him]

I believe that it is mentioned somewhere that the size of the spike doesn't matter (though I can't seem to find any reference.) Steel Inquisitor spikes are specifically mentioned as being large to be intimidating, but a much smaller spike applies the same amount of power (ala Vin.) The larger spike that the Inquisitor in the beginning of HoA uses to try and spike Elend with is larger so it can be used as a weapon, same with the spike that Marsh uses to kill the Coppercloud and spike Penrod with.

For the Kandra blessings to work they need to fit in the shoulder of a kandra posing as a human, so they can't be too big. (I've always thought of the blessings being 2"-4" myself, same as the Koloss spikes, which are mentioned in an annotation as being small: HoA annotation for Chapter 37 part 2.)

Each Hemalurgic spike driven through a person's body gave Ruin some small ability to influence them. This was mitigated, however, by the mental fortitude of the one being controlled.

In most cases—depending on the size of the spike and the length of time it had been worn—a single spike gave Ruin only minimal powers over a person. He could appear to them, and could warp their thoughts slightly, making them overlook certain oddities—for instance, their compulsion for keeping and wearing a simple earring.

From a chapter Epigraph in HoA (I don't know what chapter it is from, got it off the wiki.) This suggests that the spike size makes a difference for the "backdoor" weakness of a Hemalurgic creation, nothing on power though...

I can't seem to find a reference to the size of a spike relating to the maximum amount of power it can steal (only references to the size of anything influencing its power that I can find is the size of a Metalmind being proportional to the maximum amount of an attribute you can store in it.) Anyone else have any luck?

[Zas678 he/him]

The size of a spike doesn't matter- unless you are carrying a spike around before spiking someone. Then a smaller one will "leak" more than a larger one.

I believe that TLR could possibly make a "stealth Inquisitor", but he probably wouldn't want to. First of all, as has been said, they wouldn't be able to use them very well as Metalminds. Next, the intimidation factor. Nothing is quite as scary or as intimidating as a being with giant spikes driven through their head. Also, (and I don't have a quote on this) I think that the bigger the spike is the easier it is to get in and control them. But that's just my gut speaking.

[Chaos he/him]

I was under the impression that the size did matter to how much charge they could have, so I'd be interested in seeing confirmation there. Though, Vin's earring definitely suggests that.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Here, from Sazed's:

They then no longer required a fresh supply of spikes. I often wonder what effect the constant reuse of spikes had on their population. A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so they could not create spikes that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from. However, did the repeated reuse of spikes perhaps bring more humanity to the koloss they made?

So - there is a limit of power. It does not mention size, but there probably is correlation similar to feruchemy. Yet, IMO, the limit is rather high - so, for example, Vin's earring may be able to store Bronze ability of one person (or somewhat less, due to decay), just barely enough to give her piercing ability, while the Inquisitor's spikes can potentially hold much more power, but do not, usually, since that would require killing several people at once (or in succession) , which they seemed not to do. Also, some inquisitor powers are strange (their sight feels like they not only burn steel constantly, but also have the ability to see metal inside bodies, yet i doubt they actually burn metal for this, and they cannot pull/push it), and may require spikes piercing specific larger areas.

[EDIT]: If what Zas says is true (about leaking), and if the leakage is exponential (the more charge the faster), then there is an upper limit to charge essentially given by equilibrium between leakage (which happens even when driven directly into a body) and accumulated charge. This limit will then depend on size.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Satsuoni

[Asha'man Logain]

Here, from Sazed's:

So - there is a limit of power. It does not mention size, but there probably is correlation similar to feruchemy. Yet, IMO, the limit is rather high - so, for example, Vin's earring may be able to store Bronze ability of one person (or somewhat less, due to decay), just barely enough to give her piercing ability, while the Inquisitor's spikes can potentially hold much more power, but do not, usually, since that would require killing several people at once (or in succession) , which they seemed not to do. Also, some inquisitor powers are strange (their sight feels like they not only burn steel constantly, but also have the ability to see metal inside bodies, yet i doubt they actually burn metal for this, and they cannot pull/push it), and may require spikes piercing specific larger areas.

[EDIT]: If what Zas says is true (about leaking), and if the leakage is exponential (the more charge the faster), then there is an upper limit to charge essentially given by equilibrium between leakage (which happens even when driven directly into a body) and accumulated charge. This limit will then depend on size.

I always thought this had more to do with "savant-ism" than anything else. First of all they have more steel/iron ability than normal, as Vin did bronze. Second they no longer have eyes, so the only way they can see is by burning steel or iron, to gain the temporary 'magical' sight of blue lines. If you combine both these actions, the contsant burning of a metal with the super-ability to use it, their savant-ness could be vastly greater than either Spook's special tin abilities or Vin's special bronze ability.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Asha'man Logain

[Satsuoni he/him]

I always thought this had more to do with "savant-ism" than anything else. First of all they have more steel/iron ability than normal, as Vin did bronze. Second they no longer have eyes, so the only way they can see is by burning steel or iron, to gain the temporary 'magical' sight of blue lines. If you combine both these actions, the contsant burning of a metal with the super-ability to use it, their savant-ness could be vastly greater than either Spook's special tin abilities or Vin's special bronze ability.

Well.. this does not seem to fit, since they rely on this ability to see since their making, before they could get savantism. Does that mean that for a while, they are largely blind? Also, why do you think they have more steel ability (can you quote this)? And even then, why cant they push or pull this metal, but only see it? If they have increased ability that penetrates body protection, they should be able to push it, as well, and they never do.

[Chaos he/him]

I'd argue that Inquisitors have to be iron or steel savants. I recall that in an annotation, Brandon said anyone can learn to see like an Inquisitor [citation needed]. The only logical mechanism that exists for that is by becoming an Allomantic savant. It certainly is not a Hemalurgic effect. Zane had enhanced steel power with his spike, and that lent him extreme precision with his Pushes, but not the ability to see like an Inquisitor.

So, yeah, Inquisitors would be blind for a while after their creation. Since they could only see with iron and steel, I figure they would be flaring constantly, and it wouldn't take them long to at least get a feel for their surroundings.

Also, why do you think they have more steel ability (can you quote this)? And even then, why cant they push or pull this metal, but only see it? If they have increased ability that penetrates body protection, they should be able to push it, as well, and they never do.

I don't think those two abilities come from the same source, though (which gets us back on the topic of the Lord Ruler and lerasium Mistborn). I'm under the impression that any lerasium Mistborn could Push on metals inside bodies, given enough flaring. Maybe they need to be savants, too, but I don't think so. The Lord Ruler's base Allomantic strength was something all the original Allomancers had.

That means you can Push on metals inside bodies, but not see like an Inquisitor. Pushing on metals inside someone's body just requires a huge amount of unadulterated Allomantic power which Inquisitors lack. Inquisitor-sight and Pushing on metals inside the body don't need to be correlated effects.

[Satsuoni he/him]

One might note, that when Vin was burning mists, she also only saw two lines:

She drew upon the mists.

Two new lines appeared. She screamed, Pulling with a strength she had never known before. She flared her iron higher and higher, the Lord Ruler’s own Push giving her the leverage she needed to Pull against his bracelets. Anger, desperation, and agony mixed within her, and the Pull became her only focus.

. So she still only sees large pieces of metal, not on the molecular level.

Yet, from Kar's POV:

He turned and smiled toward the group of Ministry priests, knowing full well the discomfort the gaze of an Inquisitor could cause. He couldn’t see anymore, not as he once had, but he had been given something better. A command of Allomancy so subtle, so detailed, that he could make out the world around him with startling accuracy.

Almost everything had metal in it—water, stone, glass . . . even human bodies. These metals were too diffuse to be affected by Allomancy—indeed, most Allomancers couldn’t even sense them.

With his Inquisitor’s eyes, however, Kar could see the iron-lines of these things—the blue threads were fine, nearly invisible, but they outlined the world for him. The obligators before him were a shuffling mass of blues, their emotions—discomfort, anger, and fear—showing in their postures. Discomfort, anger, and fear . . . so sweet, all three. Kar’s smile widened, despite his fatigue.

He refers to his powers as "given", and thinks that he sees with his eyes.So this may imply that the powers appeared after he was made inquisitor, rather than developed over time. Of course, it may be that spikes through the eye grant an instant savant status. Hm. BTW, does that mean that using duralumin would blind inquisitor by depleting his iron/steel? (Maybe they did not even have that power. I mean, how would one find an Duralumin gnat, anyways?).

That still does not explain why they see metals inside bodies , but cannot pull on them. I mean, ok, savant status gives you sensitivity and detail. That is easy to agree with. High power gives you ability to sense metals in bodies and interact with them. But inquisitors obviously only have half of the second ability. Also, Zane, who has powered steel, does not seem to be able to sense metals in bodies like Vin pierces copperclouds.

And one more thing I have just notices about TLR: from the above quote: "Two new lines appeared.". Where is the third line? Two lines for two bracelets, ok. But if he was burning metals, he should have had some inside him, which should have been revealed by preservation-powered Vin. Yet it did not. Why? Digested metals don't really work - so he should have had at least flakes in around the same place (stomach), but they did not show. That may be explained by very small flakes, maybe, but it still strikes me as strange.

[EDIT] Come to think of it, we know little about TLR's abilities beyond obvious. For example: his actual age was around 1000 yo. Yet when Vin saw him charging his youth (supposedly) he looked.. well, not that old. So, was he charging oe atiummind while draining another? If that is possible, why did he bother getting older at all? Also, I don't think Feruchemist can drain metalmind while sleeping (not sure about that). So, did he sleep? Or did he use the same trick for wakefullness to stay awake forever (for a 1000 years)? Or is it, after all, possible to drain metalmind at precise rate while sleeping? (Pewter is, for example, just burned automatically, and the rate is stable for a person on a standard burn. Yet metalmind can be drained at any rate.)

Sorry for a long post.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Satsuoni

[darniil he/him]

That still does not explain why they see metals inside bodies , but cannot pull on them.

Actually, I think the passage you quoted does explain that:

These metals were too diffuse to be affected by Allomancy....

[Satsuoni he/him]

Ok, to clarify: Lord Ruler can do this:

Vin felt a powerful . . . something crash into her. It felt like a Steelpush, slamming against the metals inside her stomach—but of course it couldn’t have been that. Kelsier had promised that no Allomancer could affect metals that were inside of someone’s body.

The inquisitor can see all metals inside your body, but cannot affect them. Boosted Vin can see and affect them (excepting ones in the stomach). This does not mesh well with the fact that seeing the steel lines usually allows one to interact with them (unless they are too small, perhaps).