What if Elsecallers ideals are actually about actions?

[IcaroRibeiro]

First, I want you to forgive any typos, english is not my first language. With that in mind, let's go to the thread

On his description of Orders Sanderson used very specific words to talk about Elsecallers ideals:

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Elsecaller oaths are, like those of the Lightweavers or Skybreakers, themed toward the individual. In this case, the theme is progress—becoming better with each oath, seeking to explore their true potential and reach it. Because of this, the Order is open to many different types, so long as they want to improve themselves.

Lightweavers have no specific ideals, instead they speak truths, each one personal to each Radiant. Skybreakers have words with some meaning... well until the second ideal. Third ideal is about making an oath to follow someone, as each person is individual this can lead do Skybreakers following completely different concepts of laws. The fourth ideal is about fulfilling a quest, and is deeply personal, the oath is only accepted after the quest is finished. The fifth ideal is about becoming a law, it has a clear concept, but the meaning each Radiant can give it is so profoundly different that this makes this Idea just as personal as Lighweavers truths

 

So if Elsecallers ideals are themed towards individual, they mostly are about people "Reaching their Potential", step by step, rather than swearing specific words of honor. How much a Radiant can progress depends on how much they are actually able to improve themselves and also how much their Spren perceive their progression. Inkspren seems to have titanic standards to humans, as Ivory said to Jasnah he regards her as superior to other humans. Perhaps an evidence of this is a specific scene in the end of Oathbringer where I think Jasnah progressed to her fourth Ideal, the moment she decided to spare Renarin:

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Jasnah, this is right. Somehow it is. It is not what makes sense, yet it is still right. How. How is this thing?

Even though concerned with logic, Inkspren seems morals as things of uttermost importance, as they are so far the only kind of spren that completely avoided forming any kind of bonds, except Ivory himself. The have a less idealized and romanticised version of Honor compared to Honorspren, for Inskpren. Seems like Inkspren need humans who can go as far as necessary to archive what they perceive as the Great Good, without being devoided of the emotions that makes them humans. More than anything this scene seems a moment of understanding for both Jasnah and Ivory, for Jasnah it was a moment for her to see that a Great Good can come with an expense of her Humanity and no matter how Rational, Powerful, Learned, Fair and Discerning she is she still needs to respect her own sense of morality as she stated in Rythmn of War

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"I seek the line of action that does the most possible good for the most people. This is in keeping with my moral philosophy"

And with this, Jasnah reached her 4th ideal, reach her potential os being at the same time Mighty and Forbearing 

 

So in the context the "potential" of the order can be, although not restricted to, accomplishments of any sort necessary to trigger an Inkspren to realize the Radiant reached their own potential. With such each radiant path can change drastically. This also aligns with what is stated about the members of the order:

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They seek self-improvement and personal betterment in their lives, but aren’t limited to one specific theme or set of Ideals. This makes them one of the most open and welcoming of orders, though they do tend to attract those who are less flamboyant. They have their share of scholars, and often a large number of theologians, but also attract those who are interested in leadership. They are good at encouraging others, but some are known to set their sights upon the things they want and then seize them.

 

So, this is it. We can now speculate what specific actions triggered Jasnah progression towards each ideal. I suspect she was already at her third ideal when she met Shallan, I guess this is debatable because she seemed unable to elsecalling before the incident with her ship in Words of Radiance, but her chapter being noncanonical put this argument in check. If she was already able to elsecalling (which I believe she was) then she was probably on her third ideal

[Honorless]

37 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Skybreakers have words with some meaning... well until the second ideal. Third ideal is about making an oath to follow someone, as each person is individual this can lead do Skybreakers following completely different concepts of laws. The fourth ideal is about fulfilling a quest, and is deeply personal, the oath is only accepted after the quest is finished. The fifth ideal is about becoming a law, it has a clear concept, but the meaning each Radiant can give it is so profoundly different that this makes this Idea just as personal as Lighweavers truths

A correction: the third Skybreaker Ideal, the Ideal of Dedication isn't necessarily about following a person, it can be a code or a philosophy.

[Truthwatcher94]

2 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

So, this is it. We can now speculate what specific actions triggered Jasnah progression towards each ideal. I suspect she was already at her third ideal when she met Shallan, I guess this is debatable because she seemed unable to elsecalling before the incident with her ship in Words of Radiance, but her chapter being noncanonical put this argument in check. If she was already able to elsecalling (which I believe she was) then she was probably on her third ideal

I believe it was the lack of stormlight that detained her in Shadesmar, not the inability to use the surge of Teleportation, IIRC. And we can’t just assume that the use of the second surge equates to swearing the third Ideal. Kaladin can already use the three lashings before his third. Venli, I think, has been using Cohesion several times in RoW and attempting a lesser version of Teleportation before her second. Dalinar has also demonstrated the use of both Tension and Adhesion before his third. Shallan’s progress is a mess, so her experience as a Radiant is unreliable. The only Order that has said that their second surge can be utilized after their third Ideal are the Skybreakers. I’m too lazy to quote their references, so just feel free to correct me. 
 

This lack of information from other Orders frustrate me, too. Elsecallers and the other four Orders are to be discussed further in SA 6-10. I’m just hoping that the truth they will uncover in Shinovar from book 5 contains detailed information on all the Orders so we don’t have to wait five years for them. Anyway, happy waiting everyone! 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Truthwatcher94

[mathiau]

10 hours ago, Truthwatcher94 said:

I believe it was the lack of stormlight that detained her in Shadesmar, not the inability to use the surge of Teleportation, IIRC. And we can’t just assume that the use of the second surge equates to swearing the third Ideal. Kaladin can already use the three lashings before his third. Venli, I think, has been using Cohesion several times in RoW and attempting a lesser version of Teleportation before her second. Dalinar has also demonstrated the use of both Tension and Adhesion before his third. Shallan’s progress is a mess, so her experience as a Radiant is unreliable. The only Order that has said that their second surge can be utilized after their third Ideal are the Skybreakers. I’m too lazy to quote their references, so just feel free to correct me. 
 

This lack of information from other Orders frustrate me, too. Elsecallers and the other four Orders are to be discussed further in SA 6-10. I’m just hoping that the truth they will uncover in Shinovar from book 5 contains detailed information on all the Orders so we don’t have to wait five years for them. Anyway, happy waiting everyone! 

I think OP was talking about her ability to elsecall TO Shadesmare, which actuality came from the fact her spren didn't want to get her there.

Also, her inability to get back to the PR is not simply due to a lack of light, even now she still has trouble doing it.

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The only Order that has said that their second surge can be utilized after their third Ideal are the Skybreakers. I’m too lazy to quote their references, so just feel free to correct me. 

Dustbringers also don't get everything from the start according to the quiz

[Honorless]

Well, Division is a very dangerous Surge. Strange that Soulcasting isn't similarly regulated... or not, Soulcasting had way more uses and was way too useful during the Desolations for food supply, I'd imagine.

Yup, the Skybreakers got access to nothing from First Ideal. Second, gave them access to inhaling Stormlight and the Surge of Gravitation, which they could swear as Squires. Third, required a spren Bond, and from here on they get access to Division. Iirc, Windrunner Squires get access to both Surges from the beginning. Lightweaver Squires could breathe in Stormlight and also had access to Lightweaving, iirc but I don't remember anyone Soulcasting without a spren.

 

Elsecaller Ideals being actions rather than words is kind of beautiful and fits with their core philosophy of reaching one's potential. And sparing Renarin being one of her Ideals does make Ivory's dialogue seem to make more sense. It fits thematically. I like it! 

[Truthwatcher94]

45 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also, her inability to get back to the PR is not simply due to a lack of light, even now she still has trouble doing it.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that WoB, there was a reason why Jasnah is having trouble with coming back to the Physical Realm. I don’t recall if that reason was disclosed by Brandon later on. She needed to find a Perpendicularity to cross realms, even though she doesn’t need one, right?  Nevertheless, she can Elsecall and we still can’t confirm how far along she was on her ideals back then. 

50 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Dustbringers also don't get everything from the start according to the quiz

Maybe because of how dangerous Division actually is. Even now, I can’t picture out how the Skybreakers fight with this surge while flying. I’ve read some theories on how Gravitation and Division work together but so far none have impressed me. Well, book 5 is Szeth’s book, so maybe we can see how this works. I would love to see that and every other combinations of the two surges that make one Order distinguishable. 

32 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Well, Division is a very dangerous Surge. Strange that Soulcasting isn't similarly regulated... or not, Soulcasting had way more uses and was way too useful during the Desolations for food supply, I'd imagine.

I disagree with Soulcasting not similarly regulated. We have seen Pattern warn Shallan repeatedly about how dangerous and how not ready she is when using this surge and Cryptics are less uptight than Inksprens. Its just Jasnah makes it look so easy. 

I still think that Elsecallers’ oaths are words spoken, same as every Order we’ve seen. Idk if there was a WoB about this or I have read this in the books, but all Orders, with the exception of the Lightweavers with their Truths, speak Ideals to progress. So, most likely, Elsecallers do, too. But, I agree that this would be consistent with how Inksprens expect more from their Radiants. I can imagine them asking their Knights to prove whatever Ideal they have just spoken with action and not just lip-service. That would be funny.