Visions and Odium's Champion

[Olmund]

Here's a bit of a prediction -- and let me preface this by saying that while I've been doing a bit of lurking here, I haven't done a thorough search through all the contest of champions topics. If someone else has already come up with something along these lines, I apologize for a redundant theory.

I've been thinking about setup for Odium's champion; narratively, how will Brandon produce Odium's champion in just 10 days (not counting flashbacks)? I feel that the simplest way to give Odium an active role in producing that champion will be to use visions -- it's an established part of his power set, and it's something Rayse already tried with Kaladin. Rayse's methods were very different from Tanavast's; his visions were a raw and brutal attempt to mentally and emotionally shatter a target (not unlike the methods employed with the heralds on Braise), whereas Tanavast's visions were designed to warn, enlighten, and perhaps transform someone by offering them a chance to accept a higher calling. I'm willing to bet that the shard's intent played a large role in how the visions were used, and Rayse was limited due to how long he had held the shard (which is not to say that his attempt to break Kaladin was necessarily a poor choice -- it almost worked, after all). 

Now we have a new vessel, Taravangian. Based on the RoW epilogue, he wants to do something unexpected for his champion selection -- which I think partially precludes El or someone else with established loyalty to Odium (though i admit I could easily be wrong). I predict that he will use carefully edited visions of the past and/or future to create his champion, and here's how I see it happening for a few of our frontrunner candidates:

Szeth - based on his established mental instability, his impending crusade against his own people, and Taravangian's past experience with manipulating Szeth, I think Szeth is the most obvious choice for a turncoat champion (despite his current oath to serve Dalinar). I think that visions involving people from his past (especially people he killed) would prove useful to TOdium, especially if he plants new words into their mouths similar to what Tanavast did at the end of each vision. For example, despite his unwillingness to forgive himself, Szeth still seems vulnerable to someone seeding the idea that he can correct past mistakes by doing X (X being whatever TOdium wants him to do). TOdium could even seek to accelerate Szeth's progress as a radiant, in an effort to help him reach his fifth ideal and thus divorce him from his oath to Dalinar (this is something Rayse would likely never do, which is the main reason I consider it here). Alternatively, he could simply seek to fully break Szeth -- make him turn to Odium for relief from his agony -- though I think that's more of a Rayse method. In any case, we know that we're getting Szeth's flashbacks, which could easily provide in-book context for a TOdium-induced vision to capitalize on.

Gavinor - I include him here (despite the fact that I don't like the child champion theory) because he does have a rather direct route to accepting the role of Odium's champion. Imagine how Gavinor would react if TOdium forced him to watch Dalinar pummel Elhokar and shatter his shardplate, without offering the context necessary to realize that Dalinar was not attempting to assassinate the boy's father? What if that was the final vision in a string of visions where he saw the Blackthorn brutally slaughtering his foes (and sometimes his allies) thanks to the thrill? The boy has a hero complex, and TOdium has plenty of material to work with if he wanted to make the boy believe that his great uncle is a villain. The usual merits of the child champion theory apply, as well (forcing Dalinar to renege on the terms, thus giving TOdium much more freedom and damaging Honor's remaining power -- possibly even killing the Stormfather and making Stormlight difficult or impossible to acquire).

Nalan - You could basically copy and paste my thoughts on Szeth here; he's similarly unhinged and vulnerable to the manipulation of his ideals. He's even working for Odium at this point. The biggest issue with Nale as champion is that I'm fairly certain Taravangian is hoping to achieve more than merely winning the duel.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts for now. Feel free to comment, criticize, and/or offer further speculation.

[Zoey]

42 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Snip

I would say that Vyre would work as a Champion, somebody who once worked for humanity but was turned against them, he also has the Raysium Dagger and a Honorblade. But the arc seems to be focusing on him coming into confrontation with Kaladin, not Dalinar. He doesn't have enough of a connection with Dalinar, iirc, for it to be that emotionally resonant, outside of killing Ehlokar.

Szeth seems like a good choice, as he has a close connection with Dalinar, he also has a history with being manipulated and controlled by Taravangian in order to finish the Diagrams prophecies. So it has precedence. 

Overall, I am not that sure. 

[Use the Falchion]

58 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Szeth - based on his established mental instability, his impending crusade against his own people, and Taravangian's past experience with manipulating Szeth, I think Szeth is the most obvious choice for a turncoat champion (despite his current oath to serve Dalinar). I think that visions involving people from his past (especially people he killed) would prove useful to TOdium, especially if he plants new words into their mouths similar to what Tanavast did at the end of each vision. For example, despite his unwillingness to forgive himself, Szeth still seems vulnerable to someone seeding the idea that he can correct past mistakes by doing X (X being whatever TOdium wants him to do). TOdium could even seek to accelerate Szeth's progress as a radiant, in an effort to help him reach his fifth ideal and thus divorce him from his oath to Dalinar (this is something Rayse would likely never do, which is the main reason I consider it here). Alternatively, he could simply seek to fully break Szeth -- make him turn to Odium for relief from his agony -- though I think that's more of a Rayse method. In any case, we know that we're getting Szeth's flashbacks, which could easily provide in-book context for a TOdium-induced vision to capitalize on.

Szeth will be heading to Shinovar with Kaladin to help bring sanity back to Ishar and to "cleanse" the country. Unless Szeth and Kaladin's arc - which includes using the Oathgate to get as close as possible to Shinovar, then travelling there by Stormlight, finding out what's going on in Shinovar, finding out how to fix Ishar, solving both of those problems, and then deciding on the fates of the leaders - takes place in less than ten days, I don't think Szeth is a viable option. Sure, Odium's forces could try and grab the Assassin In White and bring him back to Urithiru, but I'm not sure that'd make him a willing champion.

 

1 hour ago, Olmund said:

Gavinor - I include him here (despite the fact that I don't like the child champion theory) because he does have a rather direct route to accepting the role of Odium's champion. Imagine how Gavinor would react if TOdium forced him to watch Dalinar pummel Elhokar and shatter his shardplate, without offering the context necessary to realize that Dalinar was not attempting to assassinate the boy's father? What if that was the final vision in a string of visions where he saw the Blackthorn brutally slaughtering his foes (and sometimes his allies) thanks to the thrill? The boy has a hero complex, and TOdium has plenty of material to work with if he wanted to make the boy believe that his great uncle is a villain. The usual merits of the child champion theory apply, as well (forcing Dalinar to renege on the terms, thus giving TOdium much more freedom and damaging Honor's remaining power -- possibly even killing the Stormfather and making Stormlight difficult or impossible to acquire).

I'm personally a fan of Gavinor being the champion, and have written more than I probably should about it. Honestly, I don't think Gavinor even needs to think that Dalinar is the bad guy. Taravangian can show up and say that he's Dalinar's old friend (truth) stuck in a bind (truth), and he needs help to get out and so he can save everyone (skewed perspective, but not untrue in Mr. T's eyes). Taravangian can note that helping him would be helping Gavinor gain back his own throne (technical truth with omission of context and facts), and more importantly, he can give Gavinor the man who murdered Elhokar. That enough would probably convince the child. 

 

1 hour ago, Olmund said:

Nalan - You could basically copy and paste my thoughts on Szeth here; he's similarly unhinged and vulnerable to the manipulation of his ideals. He's even working for Odium at this point. The biggest issue with Nale as champion is that I'm fairly certain Taravangian is hoping to achieve more than merely winning the duel.

My own personal feelings on this are that Nale has chosen the Singers, not necessarily Odium. So if he gets word of a splinter Singer group - like, say, Eshonai's group - then he'll have to make a choice. (YMMV, as several Sharders don't feel the same.)

[AquaRegia]

Szeth will be in Shinovar - I agree he's not a good option.

Gavinor is not a viable choice IMO.  A 7-year old cannot freely consent to a duel to the death, not even in the Cosmere.

I doubt Nale would ever willingly fight directly for Odium... but of the three you chose, he's most likely.

You have omitted the person I see as the MOST likely candidate - Gavilar.  Link to previous topic, rehashing not necessary:

 

[Olmund]

14 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Honestly, I don't think Gavinor even needs to think that Dalinar is the bad guy. Taravangian can show up and say that he's Dalinar's old friend (truth) stuck in a bind (truth), and he needs help to get out and so he can save everyone (skewed perspective, but not untrue in Mr. T's eyes). Taravangian can note that helping him would be helping Gavinor gain back his own throne (technical truth with omission of context and facts), and more importantly, he can give Gavinor the man who murdered Elhokar. That enough would probably convince the child. 

I think you're right that Taravangian is going to be more capable of subterfuge than Rayse was, and I don't subscribe to those who knee-jerk reject the child champion theory based on their preconceptions about child agency. However, I do think the particular method you describe could put Odium in a seriously vulnerable position, because if the boy is not truly committed to the fight then he is far more likely to forfeit before Dalinar. You would have to assume that there is wiggle room in the "willing champion" clause (i.e., if they were willing at one point then it doesn't matter if they are no longer willing) -- otherwise Gavinor shows up, is shocked to see that his opponent is his hero/role model/living father figure (provided Dalinar is his own champion), and instantly Odium no longer has a willing champion (meaning Odium was the one who violated the terms, because he has not supplied a willing champion). Even if Dalinar is not his own champion, then I can't see him picking someone who has a 0% chance of convincing Gavinor that he's been duped. Either way, I'm of the opinion that Odium must shatter the boy's affection for Dalinar to make the Gavinor theory work -- and it helps that stoking the boy's hatred would make him more susceptible to the shard's influence.

15 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Unless Szeth and Kaladin's arc - which includes using the Oathgate to get as close as possible to Shinovar, then travelling there by Stormlight, finding out what's going on in Shinovar, finding out how to fix Ishar, solving both of those problems, and then deciding on the fates of the leaders - takes place in less than ten days, I don't think Szeth is a viable option.

I agree that the time limit is probably the most difficult aspect to reconcile with Szeth as Odium's champion theory. I also have a hard time getting my head around how TOdium could use Szeth to nullify the terms of the Champion's Duel (Taravangian's primary goal), which is one of the reasons I have started to begrudgingly accept the child champion theory as a real possibility.

[ScadrianTank]

59 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Szeth will be in Shinovar

16 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Szeth will be heading to Shinovar

There is an Oathgate in Shinovar, so he can get back to Urithiru fast if the plot goes in that direction.

That might also allow Adolin to become a Champion, if he and Shallan will be going to Shinovar as well.

 

[Olmund]

19 hours ago, Zoey said:

I would say that Vyre would work as a Champion, somebody who once worked for humanity but was turned against them, he also has the Raysium Dagger and a Honorblade. But the arc seems to be focusing on him coming into confrontation with Kaladin, not Dalinar. He doesn't have enough of a connection with Dalinar, iirc, for it to be that emotionally resonant, outside of killing Ehlokar.

Personally I can't see Taravangian picking Moash/Vyre after Rhythm of War -- he's failed too often and become a pretty big liability with his psychology-induced blindness.

3 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

You have omitted the person I see as the MOST likely candidate - Gavilar. 

My feelings on the Gavilar theory are fairly complicated. On the one hand, I have (like you) become fairly convinced that he's coming back -- despite the fact that Brandon's talked about the narrative dangers of resurrecting characters. I can also see how Gavilar would lend an interesting twist to the contest of champions (he's someone Dalinar might refuse to kill, and he's someone who would have his own goals which Odium could exploit to end the contest in more favorable terms). I can even forgive Brandon for failing to lay a lot of the necessary groundwork in previous books, because you don't want a twist like that to become common knowledge before the book is even released.

That said, I think it would be a tall order to handle both his resurrection and his reveal as champion without making it seem super contrived -- though I guess if Brandon's committed to bringing him back...in for a penny, as they say.

In any case, I didn't bring him up in the OP because I didn't feel like he would be particularly vulnerable to trajectory-altering visions from TOdium -- which was the focus of this topic. If TOdium selects him, he'll likely do it just by striking some sort of deal -- with both of them trying to outsmart each other. Now that I think of it, I suppose TOdium could create visions of the future for him to test out various possible decisions during his confrontation with Dalinar -- sort of like a slower version of Atium.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Olmund

[AquaRegia]

21 minutes ago, Olmund said:

In any case, I didn't bring him up in the OP because I didn't feel like he would be particularly vulnerable to trajectory-altering visions from TOdium -- which was the focus of this topic.

That's fair, thanks for clarifying.

[Use the Falchion]

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

However, I do think the particular method you describe could put Odium in a seriously vulnerable position, because if the boy is not truly committed to the fight then he is far more likely to forfeit before Dalinar. You would have to assume that there is wiggle room in the "willing champion" clause (i.e., if they were willing at one point then it doesn't matter if they are no longer willing) -- otherwise Gavinor shows up, is shocked to see that his opponent is his hero/role model/living father figure (provided Dalinar is his own champion), and instantly Odium no longer has a willing champion (meaning Odium was the one who violated the terms, because he has not supplied a willing champion). Even if Dalinar is not his own champion, then I can't see him picking someone who has a 0% chance of convincing Gavinor that he's been duped.

I disagree, especially depending on what Odium can see with his Future Sight and how he predicts Dalinar will act (which Taravangian has done a 50/50 job on so far). If he thinks and sees that Dalinar would kill himself before harming Gavinor, then he could accurately and truthfully say: 

1. Gavinor won't have to fight or hurt anyone. (Since Dalinar would be hurting/killing himself.)

2. He would still be with his grandfather (Since Odium would then have Alethkar and Dalinar's soul.)

3. He would help end his grandfather's war (Since he would be ending the war...in a win to Odium.)

I think if Gavinor was told these facts, had the Contest painted as a way for him to be a hero, and was promised vengeance for his father, then he could easily become Odium's Champion. 

 

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

Even if Dalinar is not his own champion, then I can't see him picking someone who has a 0% chance of convincing Gavinor that he's been duped.

I mean, Dalinar's options are pretty low, and he all but said he'd be the Champion to Kaladin. 

 

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

I'm of the opinion that Odium must shatter the boy's affection for Dalinar to make the Gavinor theory work -- and it helps that stoking the boy's hatred would make him more susceptible to the shard's influence.

And that's fine! But I don't see the point of bringing in new hatred when Gavinor's hatred against Moash (and Moash's well-timed blindness and lack of use) should be enough. 

 

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

There is an Oathgate in Shinovar, so he can get back to Urithiru fast if the plot goes in that direction.

True, but I can't imagine it being used until after Szeth and Kaladin (and hopefully Lift?) finish all they set out to accomplish. Using an Oathgate in enemy territory can have some pretty strange consequences, as we learned in Oathbringer. 

 

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

That might also allow Adolin to become a Champion, if he and Shallan will be going to Shinovar as well.

I try not to say never to Adolin becoming the Champion, but all of Brandon's comments about Adolin and his role in these books makes me think that it's not high possibility. 

 

2 hours ago, Olmund said:

he's someone Dalinar might refuse to kill,

I admit I'm always a bit befuddled when people believe this. Dalinar holds no moral obligation to not kill Gavilar anymore, nor does he hold any guilt over Gavilar's death. We know more about how Gavilar truly was behind closed doors thanks to Navani's POV, and I'm pretty sure if Navani told Dalinar half of that information, The Blackthorn would feel obligated to kill the former king. 

The Way of Kings Prime Spoilers

Spoiler

Besides, it's not like a version of Dalinar wasn't a kin-slayer before. 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Zoey]

8 hours ago, Olmund said:

Personally I can't see Taravangian picking Moash/Vyre after Rhythm of War -- he's failed too often and become a pretty big liability with his psychology-induced blindness.

My feelings on the Gavilar theory are fairly complicated. On the one hand, I have (like you) become fairly convinced that he's coming back -- despite the fact that Brandon's talked about the narrative dangers of resurrecting characters. I can also see how Gavilar would lend an interesting twist to the contest of champions (he's someone Dalinar might refuse to kill, and he's someone who would have his own goals which Odium could exploit to end the contest in more favorable terms). I can even forgive Brandon for failing to lay a lot of the necessary groundwork in previous books, because you don't want a twist like that to become common knowledge before the book is even released.

That said, I think it would be a tall order to handle both his resurrection and his reveal as champion without making it seem super contrived -- though I guess if Brandon's committed to bringing him back...in for a penny, as they say.

In any case, I didn't bring him up in the OP because I didn't feel like he would be particularly vulnerable to trajectory-altering visions from TOdium -- which was the focus of this topic. If TOdium selects him, he'll likely do it just by striking some sort of deal -- with both of them trying to outsmart each other. Now that I think of it, I suppose TOdium could create visions of the future for him to test out various possible decisions during his confrontation with Dalinar -- sort of like a slower version of Atium.

I doubt Gavilar is coming back, we saw his corpse being transformed to stone in Oathbringer iirc. Seems very unlikely he would be alive. 

[Olmund]

22 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I admit I'm always a bit befuddled when people believe this. Dalinar holds no moral obligation to not kill Gavilar anymore, nor does he hold any guilt over Gavilar's death. We know more about how Gavilar truly was behind closed doors thanks to Navani's POV, and I'm pretty sure if Navani told Dalinar half of that information, The Blackthorn would feel obligated to kill the former king. 

That's the thing, though. Navani hasn't told Dalinar, in part because she decided to "be the better person" and honor Gavilar in spite of his despicable behavior, and also probably because she knows how much Dalinar still respects his brother. There's very little time and no motive for her to change that before the champion's duel -- and do you think that Navani will somehow manage to get a message to Dalinar mid-duel if Gavilar shows up? Even if she tries to do so, the odds of Dalinar actually getting the message are low, and on the off chance that he gets it, the odds of him being receptive to that message are practically 0% (given that he would be isolated, potentially mid-combat, and processing the fact that his brother is somehow alive).

You also seem to be greatly underestimating the psychological toll it would take on Dalinar to fight (let alone kill) his brother. Remember the time that he almost killed his brother while under the influence of the thrill? That was emblematic of the Blackthorn -- the man he has sworn to never be again. I also strongly disagree that he no longer holds "any guilt over Gavilar's death," -- he has chosen to learn from his mistakes and try to build himself into a better man, but that does not mean he has absolved himself of culpability for any of his past actions. Part of the reason he relentlessly chastises Adolin is precisely because he can't forgive himself, and he doesn't want Adolin to tread the same path he did.

I'm not saying he would never kill Gavilar (hence why I said he "might" refuse to kill him), but if I were to place bets I'd say Dalinar either forfeits or loses the champion's duel if his brother is his opponent. I still think the strongest case against Gavilar being Odium's champion is that it requires several extraordinary things to be true:

1. Gavilar survived, probably as a cognitive shadow stapled to some previously-prepared vessel (which is not impossible -- thanks to his secret interactions with heralds & worldhoppers, his ambition to become a god, and his comment to Szeth "Tell Thaidakar he's too late," -- it would just be extraordinary if true);

2. Gavilar has either been off-world or skulking in the shadows without leaving any obvious clues about himself for years (which we would have to chalk up to narrative expediency -- Brandon didn't show us his actions because he wanted to keep the surprise for later).

3. Gavilar is willing to strike a deal with TOdium that involves betraying his brother (also not impossible, we've seen his naked ambition through Navani's eyes and if TOdium offers him something like god-like rule over Roshar in exchange for his services then I could easily see him accept).

As for your thoughts on Gavinor, you still seem to be operating under the assumption that he would be completely unphased when he sees his opponent in the Champion's Duel and/or that "willing participant" only applies at the beginning of the contest. Offering him Moash's head would probably be enough to get him there (and I wouldn't be surprised if TOdium gives him that), but it would not be enough to make him a permanently willing participant in the contest. Do you think Dalinar (or his substitute) would not try to reason with the boy? ...and assuming Dalinar can forfeit (which seems to be TOdium's end goal, since he doesn't like the terms), shouldn't it also be possible for Odium's champion to forfeit?

Even if all of your assumptions are true ("willing" only applies at the beginning of the contest, and no forfeit is possible -- the contest must end with one of the parties dead), then TOdium's goal would be to make sure Dalinar reneges on his agreement before the contest happens -- remember, Rayse was the one who was willing to trade everything for the Blackthorn. TOdium doesn't like those terms at all. 

Also, the reason I keep bringing up a substitute champion is because despite Dalinar's intention to be his own champion, nothing is set in stone until the contest begins. I have a sneaking suspicion that TOdium may make it impossible for Dalinar to arrive himself (because not supplying a willing champion would also constitute a violation of the agreement, thus achieving TOdium's end goal) -- so Dalinar may be forced to send someone else in his place.

 

[Use the Falchion]

4 hours ago, Olmund said:

That's the thing, though. Navani hasn't told Dalinar, in part because she decided to "be the better person" and honor Gavilar in spite of his despicable behavior, and also probably because she knows how much Dalinar still respects his brother. There's very little time and no motive for her to change that before the champion's duel -- and do you think that Navani will somehow manage to get a message to Dalinar mid-duel if Gavilar shows up?

Or once the Champion reveals themself before the Duel proper starts. (Although if Gavilar is using a different body, then probably not.)

Also, Navani does hint to Dalinar that Gavilar wasn't all he was cracked up to be.* (I thought the quote was in OB, but I can't find it. It may be in one of the first two books then.) Now that she's married to Dalinar - and that any trace of defending Gavilar's legacy would be thrown out the window if he joins up with Odium - I don't see why she'd hold back. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Olmund said:

That was emblematic of the Blackthorn -- the man he has sworn to never be again.

Yeah, and Dalinar doesn't need to be The Blackthorn to stop his brother from winning as Odium's Champion. In fact, that would be his sworn duty as a Knights Radiant to do so. 

 

4 hours ago, Olmund said:

I also strongly disagree that he no longer holds "any guilt over Gavilar's death," -- he has chosen to learn from his mistakes and try to build himself into a better man, but that does not mean he has absolved himself of culpability for any of his past actions.

Words of Radiance, Chapter 85 "Swallowed by the Sky"

Quote

Dalinar did not fight for his life. His life hadn't been his own for years.

He fought for Gavilar. He fought as he wished he had all those years ago, for the chance he had missed. In that moment between storms - when the rain stilled and the winds drew in their breaths to blow - he danced with the slayer of kings, and somehow held his own.

xxxx

In that instant he knew a truth he should always have known.

If I'd been there, on that night, awake instead of drunk and asleep...Gavilar would still have died. 

I couldn't have beaten this creature. I can't do it now, and I couldn't have done it then. 

I couldn't have saved him. 

It brought peace, and Dalinar finally set down that boulder, the one he'd been carrying for over six years. 

That certainly seems like guilt to me...and guilt let go of, among that. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Olmund said:

Even if all of your assumptions are true ("willing" only applies at the beginning of the contest, and no forfeit is possible -- the contest must end with one of the parties dead), then TOdium's goal would be to make sure Dalinar reneges on his agreement before the contest happens -- remember, Rayse was the one who was willing to trade everything for the Blackthorn. TOdium doesn't like those terms at all. 

I'm aware of that. I don't think there's much that TOdium can do to make Dalinar renege before the Duel starts - wouldn't any attempt simply be read as ODIUM attempting to break the contract?

 

4 hours ago, Olmund said:

Part of the reason he relentlessly chastises Adolin is precisely because he can't forgive himself, and he doesn't want Adolin to tread the same path he did.

The path of a bloodthirsty warlord and drunkard. The path of a less honorable man - the path of Taravangian, as Dalinar puts it. While that's not entirely separated from Dalinar's feelings of Gavilar, they aren't really the same either. 

 

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

you still seem to be operating under the assumption that he would be completely unphased when he sees his opponent in the Champion's Duel and/or that "willing participant" only applies at the beginning of the contest.

I'm under that assumption because it makes sense with how Taravangian and Rayse have acted before (as grandfatherly figures to less assuming individuals), and how much information along with what type I Gavinor would be fed. If Gavinor thinks that everything is going to end well, why would be be worried about facing down his grandfather? He knows Dalinar would never hurt him, and he is promised to spend more time with him. (If my theories about how he would be convinced to be Odium's Champion are correct.)

 

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

Do you think Dalinar (or his substitute) would not try to reason with the boy? ...and assuming Dalinar can forfeit (which seems to be TOdium's end goal, since he doesn't like the terms), shouldn't it also be possible for Odium's champion to forfeit?

Oh I'm sure reasoning would come up, and then quickly thrown out of the window since the Duel has begun, and there's no more stopping that than there is the Everstorm at this point. Speaking of assumptions, you're assuming that TOdium and Dalinar can forfeit. Contracts bound by Shards and Intent are binding, and I don't see any reason why this would be any different. 

 

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that TOdium may make it impossible for Dalinar to arrive himself (because not supplying a willing champion would also constitute a violation of the agreement, thus achieving TOdium's end goal) -- so Dalinar may be forced to send someone else in his place.

This theory has also been discussed, and (surprise, surprise) I'm not a fan of it. 

Somewhere in Rhythm of War:

Quote

He took a deep breath. "Final terms are these:

A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system - but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way."

"Agree," Odium said. "But if I win, I keep everything I've won - including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms."

"And I," Dalinar whispered. "I agree to these terms."

"It is done."

If Dalinar is the champion and TOdium tries to stop him, TOdium is breaking the rules of the contest.**

 

 

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

Even if she tries to do so, the odds of Dalinar actually getting the message are low, and on the off chance that he gets it, the odds of him being receptive to that message are practically 0% (given that he would be isolated, potentially mid-combat, and processing the fact that his brother is somehow alive).

*Dalinar's arc in this series has been twofold: 

First is about becoming a better person, and all that entails (how it can inspire those around you, how it means that you have to face up to what you've done in the past, atonement, forgiveness, change, etc)

The second is about how to be idealistic in the face of broken pedestals. Dalinar had to learn that the High-Princes weren't as honorable as he thought they were; Dalinar thought Sadeas and Taravangian were his friends while they were actively betraying him; Dalinar had to re-experience his own past in order to break the view he had of himself in order to reforge it into a true person. Dalinar has had to grapple with the fact that his sons are different men than he is, particularly Adolin. All of these involve Dalinar holding someone up to a standard, them not meeting that standard, and Dalinar reassessing. Gavilar would simply be the capstone experience for this arc, and one that ultimately would fit with Dalinar's treatment of them all. 

 

5 hours ago, Olmund said:

Also, the reason I keep bringing up a substitute champion is because despite Dalinar's intention to be his own champion, nothing is set in stone until the contest begins.

Heck, depending on what Dalinar learns from Ishar (if Kaladin and Szeth help out in time), nothing is set in stone as the Contest is ongoing. Just because I think Dalinar and Gavinor will be the starting Champions for each side doesn't mean I think they'll be the ending Champions. Ishar has shown the ability to rip Connection from one person and give it to another. If Dalinar learns that ability...well, that's a theory for another time. 

 

**The contest rules also inform me that TOdium could make the promise of Alethkar and Dalinar to Gavinor as concessions if he wins, and be 100% truthful. 

[Use the Falchion]

23 hours ago, Zoey said:

I doubt Gavilar is coming back, we saw his corpse being transformed to stone in Oathbringer iirc. Seems very unlikely he would be alive.

IIRC, the general theory is that he was so Invested upon his death (particularly with Breaths, as some of actions to some read like Life Sense and/or someone incredibly Invested) that he was able to survive on the Cognitive Realm long enough to stabilize. After that...well, I have no idea what he'd be up to, but if his experiences on Braize are any clue...nothing good. 

The corpse thing holds little weight given what we know about Cognitive Shadows and how they can return to the Physical Realm. 

All of this isn't me saying I'm for Gavilar coming back - I'm pretty neutral, although I do lean towards the idea that if Gavilar returns, it'll be at the end of Book 5 and he'll be a major character for the second half of the series, not as Odium's Champion - I'm just attempting to explain the theory a little more. 

[Zoey]

20 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

IIRC, the general theory is that he was so Invested upon his death (particularly with Breaths, as some of actions to some read like Life Sense and/or someone incredibly Invested) that he was able to survive on the Cognitive Realm long enough to stabilize. After that...well, I have no idea what he'd be up to, but if his experiences on Braize are any clue...nothing good. 

The corpse thing holds little weight given what we know about Cognitive Shadows and how they can return to the Physical Realm. 

All of this isn't me saying I'm for Gavilar coming back - I'm pretty neutral, although I do lean towards the idea that if Gavilar returns, it'll be at the end of Book 5 and he'll be a major character for the second half of the series, not as Odium's Champion - I'm just attempting to explain the theory a little more. 

I see... well I do actually hope that he doesn't return... as it doesn't seem to have enough foreshadowing to the non-Cosmere aware. Brandon wouldn't make a twist be foreshadowed just through things only Cosmere-Aware people would make out. So yeah, not in favour of this theory.