Mr. T [Discuss]

[+Child of Hodor]

TL;DR Mr. T is not a back 5 villain. He got subbed in for Rayse because Rayse got introduced earlier than originally planned and lost too much. Much like how Amaram was to die in WoR, but Brandon switched it to Torol Sadeas dying and Amaram subbed in as leader of house Sadeas for OB then died when Torol was originally going to die. 

I am convinced Taravangian will be killed by the end of book 5. His big feuds are with Dalinar and Szeth, neither of whom will be a huge part of the back 5. Originally it was going to be Rayse through book 5, but when Brandon decided to switch Dalinar's book to 3 instead of 5, Rayse got introduced earlier, started taking losses earlier and needed to be replaced.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14622

This reminds me of another villain substitution Brandon did in SA. Originally Amaram was going to die at the end of WoR and Torol Sadeas would die in OB. He switched it to Torol Sadeas dying in WoR and subbed Amaram in to do the things Torol Sadeas was originally going to do. Amaram even became the leader of house Sadeas, similar to Taravangian he assumed the same title and power as the person he was subbing in for. You can easily imagine Torol Sadeas doing most all the things Amaram did in OB except maybe fight Kaladin.

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/132/#e1876

These cases seem very similar, Torol Sadeas had failed to kill Dalinar two books in a row and was proven wrong about the voidbringer threat. He was no longer as important or threatening a villain. Amaram hadn't been as thoroughly defeated so he stayed and took over as leader of house Sadeas. Rayse lost two books in a row and it made sense to replace him with a new vessel as a greater threat. 

[AquaRegia he/him]

Well, obviously none of us KNOW, and we'll find out eventually... but I disagree.

I feel that a big part of the reason we got to see Taravangian as a mortal human for 4 novels was so that when he did Ascend, we have a Shard we know not just as a God-level Power, but also as a person.  We hear accounts, mostly from Hoid, about Rayse's character as a person, but we only ever SEE him as Odium.  With TOdium, we have a Vessel we know quite well.  We know where he came from, a lot about his backstory, his motivations, his flaws, what makes him tick.  We also know Cultivation has had her fingers in his pie, so to speak, which I think will turn out to be VERY important in future novels... and I absolutely do mean the back 5.

I think he has been set up very deliberately - and very cleverly - to be a complex, nuanced, and long-running antagonist for our heroes, both present and future.

[Weltall]

Aside from AquaRegia's points, I have one more: Killing TOdium literally one book in would actually do more damage to the narrative than keeping Rayse around after several prominent failures. While the latter lost some of his mystique after being handed two solid defeats, he at least had the whole 'I'm incredibly ancient and Know Things and have had thousands of years to plan' factor that Brandon could have fallen back on to make the fusion of Rayse and Odium remain a threat. If you have TOdium killed so quickly, not only is so much of the setup that got Taravangian to that point wasted but Odium itself ceases to represent a credible threat if its Vessels can be killed off in back to back books like that. It also makes the Shards as a whole look less impressive.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Weltall

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Well, obviously none of us KNOW, and we'll find out eventually... but I disagree.

I feel that a big part of the reason we got to see Taravangian as a mortal human for 4 novels was so that when he did Ascend, we have a Shard we know not just as a God-level Power, but also as a person.  We hear accounts, mostly from Hoid, about Rayse's character as a person, but we only ever SEE him as Odium.  With TOdium, we have a Vessel we know quite well.  We know where he came from, a lot about his backstory, his motivations, his flaws, what makes him tick.  We also know Cultivation has had her fingers in his pie, so to speak, which I think will turn out to be VERY important in future novels... and I absolutely do mean the back 5.

I think he has been set up very deliberately - and very cleverly - to be a complex, nuanced, and long-running antagonist for our heroes, both present and future.

I respect that. I think what Brandon did was very clever and well done. I could see Rayse dying in book 5 and Taravangian ascending to set up the back half as the original plan and Taravangian may well be the Vessel for Odium in the back half. 

3 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Aside from AquaRegia's points, I have one more: Killing TOdium literally one book in would actually do more damage to the narrative than keeping Rayse around after several prominent failures. While the latter lost some of his mystique after being handed two solid defeats, he at least had the whole 'I'm incredibly ancient and Know Things and have had thousands of years to plan' factor that Brandon could have fallen back on to make the fusion of Rayse and Odium remain a threat. If you have TOdium killed so quickly, not only is so much of the setup that got Taravangian to that point wasted but Odium itself ceases to represent a credible threat if its Vessels can be killed off in back to back books like that. It also makes the Shards as a whole look less impressive.

I am not overly fond of Taravangian as the main antagonist for the next 6 books. Taravangian has no mystery to him and he doesn't know anything aside from what the Power was used for previously and whatever Cultivation told him. He's been propped up by Cultivation, his ascension was more her idea than it was his. He's a great villain for book 5, but "Odium's smarter now (yet less experienced)" for 5 books after that doesn't seem like enough of a threat. 

I am expecting Brandon to really shake up Roshar in preparation for the back 5. Like alter the magic system and the balance of power. For example, Odium being picked up by Cultivation would incorporate Odium into the magic system in a way that Odium is not now. This would make Voidbinding an actual thing that matters, giving Brandon a new magic system to show off in the back 5. 

I think Cultivation + Odium held by a dragon who has been a Shard all along is more interesting and more dangerous. I don't think Cultivation would mitigate Odium in the same way Honor might. It would be a different, weird Shard making the back 5 wide open. 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I am expecting Brandon to really shake up Roshar in preparation for the back 5. Like alter the magic system and the balance of power. For example, Odium being picked up by Cultivation would incorporate Odium into the magic system in a way that Odium is not now. This would make Voidbinding an actual thing that matters, giving Brandon a new magic system to show off in the back 5. 

I think Cultivation + Odium held by a dragon who has been a Shard all along is more interesting and more dangerous. I don't think Cultivation would mitigate Odium in the same way Honor might. It would be a different, weird Shard making the back 5 wide open. 

Something I'm curious about is the eventual (possible) existence of Warspren. Like, not just Enlightened Radiant spren, I'm talking proper Spren of the Intent of War. Not "corrupted" in the cosmerical sense, but an actual mixing of Honor and Odium's Investiture, as a sapient Spren.

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I am expecting Brandon to really shake up Roshar in preparation for the back 5. Like alter the magic system and the balance of power. For example, Odium being picked up by Cultivation would incorporate Odium into the magic system in a way that Odium is not now. This would make Voidbinding an actual thing that matters, giving Brandon a new magic system to show off in the back 5. 

I think Cultivation + Odium held by a dragon who has been a Shard all along is more interesting and more dangerous. I don't think Cultivation would mitigate Odium in the same way Honor might. It would be a different, weird Shard making the back 5 wide open. 

This is terrifying, fascinating, and does indeed seem like the kind of thing Brandon might do... I will not be shocked if something like this happens at some point.  Taravangian crashing and burning, followed by Koravellium acquiring a 2nd Shard, would indeed be a kickass ending for SA 7 or 8, and certainly has the potential for ratcheting up the Cosmere-wide danger factor.

I will be surprised if it happens in SA 5... but I'm not betting any spheres now.