Social consequences of cognitive phenomena prior t the Recreance

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Let me make up an extremely short story:

"You stand accused of murdering your wife"
"I did not kill her"
A Willshaper recreates a cognitive memory.
"Your floor says otherwise. String him up. Next case"

OK, I hope Rosharan judicial procedures were a bit more evolved, but after what the Honorspren did, I have my doubts.
Now seriously, after wat we have seen Stoneshaping, we must wonder how they could even have difficulties reconstructing the past. Is the development of history as a scholarly discipline of post Recreance thing.

In fact, during a trial can your spren be used against you? I mean if your are showing creation spren while telling the court what you did on that fatefull night, the judges may not be quite so inclined to believe you.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

I wonder how far this could be taken... Willshaper museum guides anyone? "These ancient ruins have seen a lot of history... Literally" *conjures stone spirit to do the tour guide job for you like a boss*

But seriously this is actually a real interesting idea. Regarding the court, are Guiltspren a thing? 'Cos that would make determining the truth a lot easier. Or just get a Cryptic to 'taste' the lies in someone's testimony? So many possibilities....

Thanks for mentioning this  

[Honorless he/him]

And that is how the Skybreakers lost their jobs, kids!

 

*damn, outta my 20 upvotes limit again, just you wait, will come back later, you've earned it* done! 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Honorless

[+Oltux72 he/him]

35 minutes ago, Honorless said:

And that is how the Skybreakers lost their jobs, kids!

And Navani took the rest of their purpose away with her flying ship. Why did you think thay have switched sides?

Though now that you mention it, what happens if a young Skybreaker- adept reads "Das Kapital" or worse and swears to it?
 Hail Hydra, anyone?

Now that I think about it, the story about Nohadon and the shepherd murderers cannot be genuine. But basically with Soulcasters and Cohesionists isn't everybody on Roshar potentially under 24/7 surveillance - retroactively? And you cannot even lie about your emotions. "Honey, do you love me?" is even more of a silly question on Roshar. "Does my ass look attractive in those pants?", no use asking. And so on ...

 

[Honorless he/him]

Oof, the burn! Something's burning and it isn't the Skybreakers' misuse of Division

*Cohesionists, they'll probably be called Stoneshapers, since Cohesion was called the Surge of Stoneshaping

Maybe the Nohadon story isn't true but we do get that bit in the in-world Words of Radiance where the Skybreakers were dividing the innocent from the guilty resulting in an argument with the Windrunners. The Skybreakers did take the job of policing, that's what their Ideals were themed towards. Wonder why the other Orders, some of which had powers more suited to this didn't ally with the Skybreakers towards this purpose.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 7.6.2021 at 11:52 AM, Honorless said:

Maybe the Nohadon story isn't true but we do get that bit in the in-world Words of Radiance where the Skybreakers were dividing the innocent from the guilty resulting in an argument with the Windrunners. The Skybreakers did take the job of policing, that's what their Ideals were themed towards. Wonder why the other Orders, some of which had powers more suited to this didn't ally with the Skybreakers towards this purpose.

Who would that be? Willshapers are by their oaths rather defense lawyers. Elsecallers have a rather utilitarian view of the law. As far as Lightweavers are concerned, it would be best to look at Shallan's Pattern, who called the idea of reasons a lie. They are predisposed to toss out the concept of guilt.

[Honorless he/him]

42 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Who would that be? Willshapers are by their oaths rather defense lawyers. Elsecallers have a rather utilitarian view of the law. As far as Lightweavers are concerned, it would be best to look at Shallan's Pattern, who called the idea of reasons a lie. They are predisposed to toss out the concept of guilt.

And? Defense lawyers are part of the legal system. Elsecallers aren't necessarily all utilitarian, they are about self-improvement, with a tendency towards being logic-oriented rather than being emotional in their decision making, owing mostly to the nature of their spren preferring people with that type of mentality. They'd both have been well-suited to that role. I doubt the whole Radiant internal police force was always made up of Skybreakers. "Predisposed to toss out the concept of guilt" excuse me? What? 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

22 hours ago, Honorless said:

And? Defense lawyers are part of the legal system.

They are a part of our system. Rosharans and the Radiants of old may have thought otherwise. Basically I'd consider the relation between the Willshapers and the Skybreakers not one of the best.

22 hours ago, Honorless said:

Elsecallers aren't necessarily all utilitarian, they are about self-improvement, with a tendency towards being logic-oriented rather than being emotional in their decision making, owing mostly to the nature of their spren preferring people with that type of mentality. They'd both have been well-suited to that role.

But not interested. You need not have perfect justice to be perfectly efficient.

22 hours ago, Honorless said:

I doubt the whole Radiant internal police force was always made up of Skybreakers. "Predisposed to toss out the concept of guilt" excuse me? What? 

Cryptics are interested in sincerity and are equipped to deal with cause and effect. The concept of justice is a very human thing. We are not talking about simple fairness.

Remember how hard Pattern was pressed when he needed to explain why he had secret communications. To him there were a number of factors that made it a good idea and some factors that made it a bad idea.

[Honorless he/him]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They are a part of our system. Rosharans and the Radiants of old may have thought otherwise. Basically I'd consider the relation between the Willshapers and the Skybreakers not one of the best.

But not interested. You need not have perfect justice to be perfectly efficient.

Cryptics are interested in sincerity and are equipped to deal with cause and effect. The concept of justice is a very human thing. We are not talking about simple fairness.

Remember how hard Pattern was pressed when he needed to explain why he had secret communications. To him there were a number of factors that made it a good idea and some factors that made it a bad idea.

Pretty good points. Actually Cryptics might accidentally take things way too far and make things awkward. The other Orders might've been content to let people go unpunished so long as they improved themselves or made themselves useful and that might not have sat well with the Skybreakers. The Knights Radiant were also an old organization, with divine backing based on solid codes of morality and divided into specific roles, their cultural viewpoint might've stagnated into "this is how it's always been done", and so the Skybreakers did as they always did and so did the rest of the Orders.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

The Knights Radiant were also an old organization, with divine backing based on solid codes of morality and divided into specific roles, their cultural viewpoint might've stagnated into "this is how it's always been done", and so the Skybreakers did as they always did and so did the rest of the Orders.

A tower-city the size of Urithiru needs a police force, a judiciary and somebody who enforces court decisions. It may be that the orders of Knights Radiant were policed by their spren, but the Knights Radiant were a minority in Urithiru. If a Knight Radiant did not pay his bills or the Stonewards had a bar brawl or whatever, the enforcers would need to include Surgebinders. I am sure any mentally competent Knight Radiant who spent more than a few weeks in Urithiru would understand that.

But that does not mean they would need to like it or like the people who gladly did that job.

[Honorless he/him]

Just noticed, in OB, Pattern says that the meeting room in Urithiru has memories in Shadesmar.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 25.6.2021 at 7:03 PM, Honorless said:

Just noticed, in OB, Pattern says that the meeting room in Urithiru has memories in Shadesmar.

That raises a point. Are we indeed talking about Stoneshaping? Or was Venli actually only special in that she made the stones act out the memories, but the act of getting the memories would be possible to anybody who got the right bead?