Odium moving forward

[LuckyJim]

After watching the livestream, one of the things that stuck out to me most was one of Brandon's comments on how Odium's position will change now that the power is in a new vessel. "Odium will have interesting, different relationships with a lot of different, interesting people in the next book." Obviously, we knew this was going to happen, but I thought it would be interesting to really start to dig into which people will be effected by the switch in vessels, and how their relationship and roles will change.

The Fused

The Fused are probably the biggest group that's going to experience the change. They get their powers directly from Odium, and as his greatest resources, they'll be the first ones Taravangian can use for his plans. I think Taravangian is going to clean house a bit, getting rid of any Fused that are no longer useful, similar to what El did with Leizan, since many have been alive for far too long, and "there's nothing sadder than a tool that has outlived it's purpose". The ones that remain would be like El, who are probably ones that would find the change in management revitalizing, and willing to serve this new Odium to rule the humans and end this war in a way that doesn't involve total destruction.

The Dustbringers

The Dustbringers in general have been built up as loyal to the Diagram, and their loyalty to the coalition has been tenuous at best. I think it would be a waste for that to just been thrown away now that the Diagram has disbanded, since nothing really came of it yet. The Dustbringers are still Radiants, and we don't know what their position within the coalition and new order of Knights Radiant is, but it's likely that they will have some sort of alligiance to the new Odium.

That being said, I expect there to be some Dustbringers who don't ally with Odium, including Ral-na.

Moash/Vyre

Vyre is a pretty major case in this shift, and was the subject of the question asked in the livestream in the first place. His Connection to Odium is unique, and if he's Connected to the shard and not the vessel, it will likely be maintained. I don't think Taravangian will want to get rid of him, even without his eyesight he's a useful tool, and it's possible only humans can use the honorblade. How this affects Moash's character arc, we can only speculate.

Probably the biggest change however, is how Moash responds to the new vessel, considering their goals are no longer in alignment. Moash wants vengeance on humans and their total extermination, Taravangian wants to "save everyone". He'll probably keep Moash in the dark long enough for Moash to remain a useful tool, but I wonder how Moash would react when it becomes clear that Odium now wants to rule the humans, not destroy them (if he survives that long, anyway).

Another possibility, is that Taravangian's new influence on the Odium shard leaks over to Moash, providing him a direction for his passions aside from just mass extermination.

The Unmade

It's hard to say much here, since we don't know a lot about the different unmade. I think he'll have a much better relationship with Sja-Anat than Rayse did, however.

The Iri

This is the one I'm the most interested in, and the more I think about it the worse it gets. We know that the Iri have already allied themselves with Odium's forces, and will likely continue to be in service to Taravangian. We know that Taravangian wants to extend his influence past Roshar. We also know that the Iri are a population of humans that originate from beyond Roshar and Ashyn, and will eventually migrate to a new world. Altogether, this could have some scary implications, not just for the future of Stormlight, but the Cosmere as a whole.

Edited December 20, 2020 by LuckyJim

[Dracnor]

Nice questions !

About the dustbringers. Are we sure that they (as an order) serve the Diagram ? I remembered that we only saw one, which happened to serve the Diagram but can we generalize ?

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, LuckyJim said:

The Unmade

 

It's hard to say much here, since we don't know a lot about the different unmade. I think he'll have a much better relationship with Sja-Anat than Rayse did, however.

Unlike Rayse Taravngian knows that Sja-Anat is a traitor.

1 hour ago, LuckyJim said:

 

The Iri

This is the one I'm the most interested in, and the more I think about it the worse it gets. We know that the Iri have already allied themselves with Odium's forces, and will likely continue to be in service to Taravangian. We know that Taravangian wants to extend his influence past Roshar. We also know that the Iri are a population of humans that originate from beyond Roshar and Ashyn, and will eventually migrate to a new world. Altogether, this could have some scary implications, not just for the future of Stormlight, but the Cosmere as a whole.

Jah Keved

Their kings is not dead, as the treacherous Alethi reported, but ascended to a higher plane. And he apparently can grant arcane powers and immortality. I wouldn't worry about the Iri primarily.

[LuckyJim]

56 minutes ago, Dracnor said:

Nice questions !

About the dustbringers. Are we sure that they (as an order) serve the Diagram ? I remembered that we only saw one, which happened to serve the Diagram but can we generalize ?

Probably not all of them, but it seems the majority of them do. When Taravangian wrote the Diagram, it was determined as an order they'd be likely to ally themselves with the cause. In Dawnshard, when Lopen finds out that Ral-na is a Dustbringer, he advises him to speak to Dalinar, because they're wary of the influence Taravangian has over the Dustbringer Order. In Rhythm of War, relations with the Dustbringers are tense as we see in the meeting with the other leaders and Radiants of the coalition. It's part of why the Dustbringers aren't even considered for the trip to Lasting Integrity.

46 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Unlike Rayse Taravngian knows that Sja-Anat is a traitor.

Jah Keved

Their kings is not dead, as the treacherous Alethi reported, but ascended to a higher plane. And he apparently can grant arcane powers and immortality. I wouldn't worry about the Iri primarily.

He knows that, but he doesn't necessarily want the same things that Rayse wants. He could potentially try to work out a better arrangement with Sja-Anat, rather than work against her. Granted, we don't exactly know what Taravangian's plans are at this point, so it could go either way.

As for the Iri, my main concern is that he may enlist them as an army to carry out his will across the Cosmere, rather than just on Roshar. The Iri will eventually make a mass pilgrimage off of Roshar, and Brandon has stated that they will have an influence in the space age of the Cosmere.

[coolsnow7]

I’m not sure Moash would want to serve Taravangian at all - Taravangian is/was a king! Kaladin grew out of his hatred of the nobility whereas Moash is letting it consume him. Indeed, remember that the moment he gave up on humanity in Oathbringer was when he went to the Singer camp and found that a lighteyes of high rank had managed to manipulate the other humans into serving him. No, I don’t think Moash and Taravangian are gonna see eye to eye at all.

Another interesting question: what happens if Odium reveals himself as Taravangian to Jah Keved? Does he immediately gain their allegiance? That would make the 10 days between now and the contest much much more consequential! It might force the humans to up the stakes of the contest. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by coolsnow7

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I’m not sure Moash would want to serve Taravangian at all

I very much doubt his wishes are relevant. The alternative is being a blind, defenseless man, whom many dislike and to be known for being god's enemy. There are less painful ways of suicide.

[WasingtheWhy]

I think that Moash is being primed for a redemption arc down the line.

It is going to be interesting going forward with future books, since now that Taravangian has ascended, will we still get POV chapters and interludes from him? Aside from climactic points in other books, we don't see a lot of things from the eyes of a Shard Vessel. That being said, I've never been a huge fan of POV chapters of antagonists in other books, as sometimes they can seem like a lot of mustache twirling and foreshadowing.

Mostly I feel that the next book is going to be spent showing just how dangerous Taravangian is now. Rayse was single minded in that he wanted to be the only Shard, and we know that Shards influence their Vessels a lot. It's about to get very Cosmere-heavy, so brace yourselves people!

[LuckyJim]

Moash's relationship with Odium is moving forward is going to depend on a lot of factors. Whether or not Taravangian decides to keep him in the dark on his ascension, how useful of a tool he assesses Moash to be, whether Moash is willing to follow a human leader at this point, whether or not he can find an other option, or whether or not he can even be considered to have free will at this point.

[Osvibu]

11 hours ago, WasingtheWhy said:

I think that Moash is being primed for a redemption arc down the line.

That... that would be a hard sell, at least for me. He is way past redemption. Which is odd as I love Dalinar and I loved his redemption arc. I just think that we got really close to it when he lost his connection to Odium. That was his chance and he blew it as he didn't felt bad about what he had done, he felt bad about feeling. I think he can't go back from that.

I don't know... maybe in the back 5 books if he does something splendid in the next one? I'd rather not anyway. 

 

11 hours ago, WasingtheWhy said:

It is going to be interesting going forward with future books, since now that Taravangian has ascended, will we still get POV chapters and interludes from him? Aside from climactic points in other books, we don't see a lot of things from the eyes of a Shard Vessel. That being said, I've never been a huge fan of POV chapters of antagonists in other books, as sometimes they can seem like a lot of mustache twirling and foreshadowing.

Mostly I feel that the next book is going to be spent showing just how dangerous Taravangian is now. Rayse was single minded in that he wanted to be the only Shard, and we know that Shards influence their Vessels a lot. It's about to get very Cosmere-heavy, so brace yourselves people!

True! If someone can do bad people POV is Brandon though, we have had Sadeas -and Ialai, maybe- in the past. Even Sja-anat. But I think we won't see them for the same reason we don't have Renarin POVs. They both see the future and therefore know too much.

[WasingtheWhy]

It's hard saying whether or not it will be a true redemption arc for Moash. I just feel like he is a catalyst going forward. It might be less of a redemption arc, and more of a single action that he might take to tip the scales. (Maybe spoiler for some.)

Spoiler

Kind of like Marsh at the end of Mistborn Era 1. Granted he was being controlled by Ruin, but he still felt responsible for his actions.