What Khriss knows, and the mysterious Foil

[LiftIRL]

I understtan why people probably don't give the SA ars arcanum too much attention- because knowledge gets piles on it, to get to the new stuff you have to sit through pages of really basic level and a bit outdated-feeling explanations of stuff we're already well familiar with. And honestly, the main reasons I'm really excited about the newest addition to the Ars Arcanum in rhythm of war is not really for its content, which is basic information about Intent and connection with some obvious big neon arrows going "OOOOH LOOK AT WHATTHE STONES DID WITH VENLI, PAY ATTENTION TO THAT". No, the things that interest me in this Ars Arcanum and that I'm suprised to see no one is talking about is information from the way Khriss writes things, and worldhopping.combination magic related information. Three main things got my attention:

1. As far as Khriss knows, this is the first proof of the existence of previously theorized Anti-Investiture!! everybody give a round of applause to Navani coming up with this with much less cosmere awareness as Silverlight scholars.

2. FOIL FOIL WHO IS FOIL! right at the end of the bit, Khriss writes along the lines of "and I think that Foil, deep in his ocean will have to admit this fits my theories more than his". (I can't qoute cuz I don't have the book with me, but I'm surprised people aren't theorizing on this already. The mention of Oceans makes me think maybe this is the name of the specific Avatar of Autonomy to live on Obrodai? but the whole autonomy avatar situation is very vauge and I never liked relying too much on WoBs about it cuz it feels like information we don't have the context to entirely place. Also, I find it odd to think a shard would be engaging in scholarly discourse writing with Khriss

3. Much smaller, but Khriss calls Urithiru "The Mountains of Ur"- that's... an old name to the place, y'know. just how long has Khriss been around?

4. Another small one, but, she has sent her "best agent" amongst the stonewards to investigate. So either this is a place to look specifically for Nazh in the future, or in general a place to look for a worldhopper currently.

5. And I guess the actual topic of the Ars Arcanum is also worth mentioning: what is up with stone Identity and Connection? they seem to really do have more personality and memory, one could even say a consciousness, than your avarage material. Seeing as people have been talking about how maybe Culti's influence on Roshar is in the Crem that makes the ground, and this could be pointing to that. and why Stonewardsand willshapers? I doubt it's related to Taln, but it is odd how these two specific orders stand out in the current order of things, with us seeing very few stonewards up till now, and Willshaper spren taking a unique side in the war and also showing up pretty late, even just from a Doylistic standpoint of- oh, this will probably be a significant twist saved for Later.

So yeah im just here to raise awareness of what i found interesting about this easy-to-overlook segment and see what people have to say about it, cuz I think at least some stuff here is discussion worthy.

[Criggleworth]

I'm super intrigued by Foil. I mean, we know a couple things about him- he lives deep in an ocean (or somehow owns it) and he wants to "control" the aethers. 

I'm hoping Foil isn't an Avatar or a dragon. To me, he'd be more interesting as a new sapient species, to stand (or swim) alongside humans, singers, and dragons. 

And what does control the aethers even mean? Can they not be bonded or is Foil aiming for something much bigger?

[Elegy]

I agree, I'm also a bit confused by how little attention the Ars Arcanum gets. Then again, there might just not be enough to go on speculating, since the things she mentions are mostly very vague. Still, that hasn't stopped the Shard before, has it?

Another interesting thing in the Ars Arcanum is the first canonical mention of microkinetics, the Yolen magic that can manipulate axis. Brandon always said he wanted it to be less overpowered once he writes Dragonsteel, but from what Khriss indicates, the canon version still seems to be very destructive.

42 minutes ago, LiftIRL said:

2. FOIL FOIL WHO IS FOIL! right at the end of the bit, Khriss writes along the lines of "and I think that Foil, deep in his ocean will have to admit this fits my theories more than his". (I can't qoute cuz I don't have the book with me, but I'm surprised people aren't theorizing on this already. The mention of Oceans makes me think maybe this is the name of the specific Avatar of Autonomy to live on Obrodai? but the whole autonomy avatar situation is very vauge and I never liked relying too much on WoBs about it cuz it feels like information we don't have the context to entirely place. Also, I find it odd to think a shard would be engaging in scholarly discourse writing with Khriss

Yep, this is the biggest mystery in there. That said, the oceans in the epigraphs don't seem to allude to Obrodai but First of the Sun (the Sixth of the Dusk world). (Obrodai is related to as "there", while Patji refers to the oceans as "these waters", so he means the place he currently is.)

It would make sense for these "oceans" Khriss mentions to be the same ones that Patji mentions in his letter, but Foil doesn't fit the naming conventions of the Pantheon (Patji and Sori are the names we know). I'm sure there are plenty of other oceans in the cosmere that Khriss could refer to. I guess Foil being on the world of Aether of the Night makes most sense, since such a being would get the most out of controlling the Aethers, I guess. But, as I said at the beginning, there's not much to go on.

47 minutes ago, LiftIRL said:

3. Much smaller, but Khriss calls Urithiru "The Mountains of Ur"- that's... an old name to the place, y'know. just how long has Khriss been around?

In the section about "Windrunning and Lashing", Khriss says her knowledge about Windrunning is derived from information about Szeth's abilities from his time as Assassin in White. So she doesn't seem to have been around before the Recreance to witness Radiant powers first-hand before Szeth used their abilities when they already were mythological to the Rosharan cultures.

Thank you for making this topic! The Ars Arcanum is oddly overlooked!

[seriodor]

A thought I just had, in the preview for the Sixth of Dusk sequel:

Spoiler

Dusk says that he's going to search the Darkness for allies against the Scadrians and the Rosharans. The oceanic nature of First of the Sun and the way Vathi offers to send him with a crew makes it seem like it will be an ocean voyage. The context of the conversation these things are mentioned in seems to indicate that the Darkness is First of the Sun's cognitive realm. An enormous dark cognitive realm ocean seems like a good place for this mysterious Foil to live.

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by seriodor
added a spoiler

[Shuffel]

My favorite theory is Zu is the stonewarden agent. There is also a character named Zu in Emperor's soul

[Serack]

12 hours ago, LiftIRL said:

what is up with stone Identity and Connection? they seem to really do have more personality and memory, one could even say a consciousness, than your avarage material. Seeing as people have been talking about how maybe Culti's influence on Roshar is in the Crem that makes the ground, and this could be pointing to that.

I suspect this is related to the underlying in world mechanics for how the continent of Roshar is modeled after a 2d slice of the Julia Set (relevant WoB below) and how the Stormfather says he provided the crem and force that shapes the land.  
 

In other words there is something fundamental about the nature of Roshar that causes its stone to form in a very specific topology.  I suspect this fundamental dynamic is related to the “tones” of Roshar, which flows into the concept of Dawn Singers and their attunement  to these tones on a level that allows them to manipulate the very stone of the land.  
 

It is also directly related to the harmonic patterns that form into the shapes of the major cities of Roshar.  
 

Quote

Questioner

You used the Julia Set as a basis for the map of Roshar; Is there any meaning beyond it, using the Julia Set? Or is more, "This is striking to me-"

Brandon Sanderson

The meaning is my fascination as a layman with fractals and equations. It is supposed to mean something in world; that Roshar was grown with a mathematical equation.

Questioner

But not specifically that one?

Brandon Sanderson

Not specifically the Julia Set. You can't learn much from the Julia Set.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

[Dawnshard]

21 hours ago, Shuffel said:

My favorite theory is Zu is the stonewarden agent. There is also a character named Zu in Emperor's soul

Zu was named in the Emperor's Soul, but there were other more cosmere aware characters.

 

On 12/8/2020 at 6:01 AM, LiftIRL said:

I understtan why people probably don't give the SA ars arcanum too much attention- because knowledge gets piles on it, to get to the new stuff you have to sit through pages of really basic level and a bit outdated-feeling explanations of stuff we're already well familiar with. And honestly, the main reasons I'm really excited about the newest addition to the Ars Arcanum in rhythm of war is not really for its content, which is basic information about Intent and connection with some obvious big neon arrows going "OOOOH LOOK AT WHATTHE STONES DID WITH VENLI, PAY ATTENTION TO THAT". No, the things that interest me in this Ars Arcanum and that I'm suprised to see no one is talking about is information from the way Khriss writes things, and worldhopping.combination magic related information. Three main things got my attention:

1. As far as Khriss knows, this is the first proof of the existence of previously theorized Anti-Investiture!! everybody give a round of applause to Navani coming up with this with much less cosmere awareness as Silverlight scholars.

2. FOIL FOIL WHO IS FOIL! right at the end of the bit, Khriss writes along the lines of "and I think that Foil, deep in his ocean will have to admit this fits my theories more than his". (I can't qoute cuz I don't have the book with me, but I'm surprised people aren't theorizing on this already. The mention of Oceans makes me think maybe this is the name of the specific Avatar of Autonomy to live on Obrodai? but the whole autonomy avatar situation is very vauge and I never liked relying too much on WoBs about it cuz it feels like information we don't have the context to entirely place. Also, I find it odd to think a shard would be engaging in scholarly discourse writing with Khriss

3. Much smaller, but Khriss calls Urithiru "The Mountains of Ur"- that's... an old name to the place, y'know. just how long has Khriss been around?

4. Another small one, but, she has sent her "best agent" amongst the stonewards to investigate. So either this is a place to look specifically for Nazh in the future, or in general a place to look for a worldhopper currently.

5. And I guess the actual topic of the Ars Arcanum is also worth mentioning: what is up with stone Identity and Connection? they seem to really do have more personality and memory, one could even say a consciousness, than your avarage material. Seeing as people have been talking about how maybe Culti's influence on Roshar is in the Crem that makes the ground, and this could be pointing to that. and why Stonewardsand willshapers? I doubt it's related to Taln, but it is odd how these two specific orders stand out in the current order of things, with us seeing very few stonewards up till now, and Willshaper spren taking a unique side in the war and also showing up pretty late, even just from a Doylistic standpoint of- oh, this will probably be a significant twist saved for Later.

So yeah im just here to raise awareness of what i found interesting about this easy-to-overlook segment and see what people have to say about it, cuz I think at least some stuff here is discussion worthy.

My bet that the agent sent by Kriss is actually Shai, with a tongue in cheek nod to her lesser nemesis from that story by taking the name Zu. She used an essence mark to become rosharan and then formed a connection to a spren. As long as she keeps up stamping within the time frame she has her bond. Also if by the time she swears the 5th Ideal then maybe she won't even need the stamp. Also Adolin said that her background was suspicious but that she had training. Secondly this is the most cosmere connected book yet. There are Feruchemists, World Hoppers, Hoid, Heralds, and Returned. Not surprised that Sel is coming out to play. I think Zu, Kriss, Jasanah and other scoloarly types will get along better (not perfectly), than Hoid and the boys (who seem to not get along with each other, even Vasher thinks he's an ahole). Hahaha love the connections.

[Lightdancer]

On 12/8/2020 at 8:01 AM, LiftIRL said:

And I guess the actual topic of the Ars Arcanum is also worth mentioning: what is up with stone Identity and Connection? they seem to really do have more personality and memory, one could even say a consciousness, than your avarage material.

Nobody's mentioned it yet, but the Shin won't walk on stones. It seems like they worship them in some way? Szeth does seem to ascribe them some sentience (he says that, as Truthless, his soul "would be given to the stones" for torment after death). He also says that Urithiru is the only stone that he can walk on? (I'm working all from memory, here.)

Anyways, from what I've seen, the Shin know way more than Roshar gives them credit for, so it doesn't surprise me that stones have significance.

[coolsnow7]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:01 AM, LiftIRL said:

 

5. And I guess the actual topic of the Ars Arcanum is also worth mentioning: what is up with stone Identity and Connection? they seem to really do have more personality and memory, one could even say a consciousness, than your avarage material. Seeing as people have been talking about how maybe Culti's influence on Roshar is in the Crem that makes the ground, and this could be pointing to that. and why Stonewardsand willshapers? I doubt it's related to Taln, but it is odd how these two specific orders stand out in the current order of things, with us seeing very few stonewards up till now, and Willshaper spren taking a unique side in the war and also showing up pretty late, even just from a Doylistic standpoint of- oh, this will probably be a significant twist saved for Later.

So yeah im just here to raise awareness of what i found interesting about this easy-to-overlook segment and see what people have to say about it, cuz I think at least some stuff here is discussion worthy.

Keep in mind the Stone Shammanate of the Shin: one very important component of Shin religion is the holiness of stone. Combine that with the pointer from Kelek about Ba Ado Mishram’s capture doing damage to the planet. These are all clearly related and going to be at least one of the main themes of book 5 when we finally explore Shinovar. 

[Lightdancer]

On 12/10/2020 at 0:58 AM, coolsnow7 said:

Keep in mind the Stone Shammanate of the Shin: one very important component of Shin religion is the holiness of stone. Combine that with the pointer from Kelek about Ba Ado Mishram’s capture doing damage to the planet. These are all clearly related and going to be at least one of the main themes of book 5 when we finally explore Shinovar. 

I'm excited.

[StormFather!]

I think that Kriss calls Urithiru the mountains of Ur is because she learned about it from a book at Silverlight, not from the natives, who would have called it Urithiru. Also, Kriss is way old. Probably around 1150 years based on the scale of the timeline I found. Her book was about  100-200 years after the LR came into power. SA is only a few years before Wax and Wayne, so around 1150 years.

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by StormFather!

[nerpspren]

Thanks for starting this thread, I was very curious about this too! With the mention of aethers I also thought about Aether of Night, though I don't know much about it at all.

[Honorless]

Foil might be the same guy as Xisis

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

Foil might be the same guy as Xisis

Who? 

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Who? 

 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

41 minutes ago, Honorless said:

 

Ah that explains why I couldn't find a coppermind entry

[Honorless]

38 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Ah that explains why I couldn't find a coppermind entry

There isn't an article yet? That's strange, they're really good at putting up new pages fast, go talk to a Keeper

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

44 minutes ago, Honorless said:

There isn't an article yet? That's strange, they're really good at putting up new pages fast, go talk to a Keeper

oh wait, no there is. It's xisis, I was reading "xsis" which apparently was enough that google didn't give any results