Happy ending

[Gwilia]

Do you think the 5th book will have happy ending?

The events of the last chapters of Rhythm of War (Hoid losing memories, T. becoming Odium, the terms of the duel) and the following discusses here make me consider an option, that the 5th book won't go well for our heroes. Is it a real possibility? Or is Sanderson only doing great work as always and it's just for high stakes and more tension before the "last" book?

I want our heroes, who suffer and grow so much, to be happy and satisfied at the end of book. (For example Kaladin not being dead, not sacrifiing himself to go to Braize, but instead helping himself and others with psychotherapy etc) And yes, I know, jorney before destination, but where is the hope otherwise?

[Alatar he/him]

Sanderson's stories always have a "good" ending, he's not a grim dark writer. Sometimes the main characters die, sometimes the villain kind of wins... But the end is, at least, hopeful.

That said, no way book 5 is going to be happy. Mainly, because this is a 2-series story, so this isn't really the end. Also, because this story is very Cosmere relevant and we need Dalinar out there, so he has to lose the duel and be tied to Odium. Furthermore, Kaladin will probably "die" one way or the other, maybe to save the day, maybe to reforge the Honorpact, or to become Honor's Vessel or...

Well, as I see it, the end is going to hurt. Anyway, I think BS has confirmed that some of the youngsters here, like Lift, will be main characters in the second SA series, so book 5 is kind of a season finale, not really the end.

Disclaimer: all of the above are opinions and assumptions, you're free to believe in a happy ending book 5

[Aminar]

Yeah. It kind of has to given we're getting an Age of Legends by the time the back half hits. So we get a good ending, a magi-technological revolution, and then a new conflict arises out of that in the back half. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

4 hours ago, Alatar said:

That said, no way book 5 is going to be happy. Mainly, because this is a 2-series story, so this isn't really the end.

I have been thinking about this more after this book and I do not think I agree with this. I think we will see something similar to the MB books between era 1 and 2. There will be a distinct conclusion/resolution after book 5 with some lingering implications like we saw in MB. The reason I feel strongly about this is there will be some considerable time both in world and out of world between the two series. I just do not see Brandon letting doom and gloom linger that long. For sure some characters will not have a "happy ending" but overall I think book 5 will end on a positive note. Of course just like you said it is all opinions at this point and man so many of ours have been wrong here on the shard 

Edited December 2, 2020 by StormingTexan

[+Bliev she/her]

15 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I have been thinking about this more after this book and I do not think I agree with this. I think we will see something similar to the MB books between era 1 and 2. There will be a distinct conclusion/resolution after book 5 with some lingering implications like we saw in MB. The reason I feel strongly about this is there will be some considerable time both in world and out of world between the two series. I just do not see Brandon letting doom and gloom linger that long. For sure some characters will not have a "happy ending" but overall I think book 5 will end on a positive note. Of course just like you said it is all opinions at this point and man so many of ours have been wrong here on the shard 

This is my thought too. Brandon has said he wants it to feel like a finished series, but one you want more of, and i feel that means we wll have a satisfying conclusion for at least most of our 5 mains, though it seems likely we will lose some people,  I can't see it being grim dark GRRM style. Not for a whole decade+ of waiting. 

Two thinks to think abut though, for me, are the following WOBs:

Quote

And actually the ending of the entire series of the ten books is somewhere in those two books (WOR/WOK i believe he means)

Quote

Dalinar's flashbacks would work very well for book five for reasons I can't explain yet--but it became clear to me that I needed them for this book, despite the outline looking at the Szeth/Kaladin dynamic

So now I'm pouring over epigraphs and death rattles haha. But also, what is the theme for Dalinar's flashbacks and how is this this going to be related to what happens plot-wise in Book 5. 

 

[Rorzikel]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Yeah. It kind of has to given we're getting an Age of Legends by the time the back half hits. So we get a good ending, a magi-technological revolution, and then a new conflict arises out of that in the back half. 

I don't agree with this. Brandon's talked about magitech revolution, but that in no way guarantees a happy ending for the front half or that Todd will be thrown out in a single book. Technological progress being the future of Roshar's magic doesn't mean our heroes win or win without a grave and bitter cost because science is neither good nor evil. We could easily be shooting for a cyberpunk cold war, still locked in conflict with Odium all the way into book 10.

[Leuthie]

Book 5 will end with a win with significant cost, few major dangling threads, and more hope than dread. Each individual book has ended that way, there's no reason to think the first half of the series, going into a IRL 5 year (?) hiatus, is going to end much different. There's also a big time skip between book 5 and book 6, which hints at some kind of victory or stalemate leading up to that break.

[Aminar]

50 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I don't agree with this. Brandon's talked about magitech revolution, but that in no way guarantees a happy ending for the front half or that Todd will be thrown out in a single book. Technological progress being the future of Roshar's magic doesn't mean our heroes win or win without a grave and bitter cost because science is neither good nor evil. We could easily be shooting for a cyberpunk cold war, still locked in conflict with Odium all the way into book 10.

The ending has to reflect how we're supposed to feel at the beginning of the back half(at least if you want to avoid a Starwarsesque backlash). And that's supposed to be wondrous. That doesn't mean their won't be costs. But losses don't make an ending sad. People need to differentiate between an ending that moves the world forward in a happy way and saccharine endings where nothing has consequence and the good guys win effortlessly. It's going to be an ending with hope for the future of Roshar and the major conflicts resolved. 

The Cold War thing is Not an Age of Legends. Age of Legends is a specific call to a time of peace, prosperity, and wonder in the Wheel of Time. It's an idyllic Utopian thing. Not just a magi-tech revolution. It falls apart into madness eventually because of arrogance and over-reach but it's not going to be a cold war with Odium or anyone else. That wouldn't be an Age of Legends. 

[Alatar he/him]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

The ending has to reflect how we're supposed to feel at the beginning of the back half(at least if you want to avoid a Starwarsesque backlash). And that's supposed to be wondrous. That doesn't mean their won't be costs. But losses don't make an ending sad. People need to differentiate between an ending that moves the world forward in a happy way and saccharine endings where nothing has consequence and the good guys win effortlessly. It's going to be an ending with hope for the future of Roshar and the major conflicts resolved. 

The Cold War thing is Not an Age of Legends. Age of Legends is a specific call to a time of peace, prosperity, and wonder in the Wheel of Time. It's an idyllic Utopian thing. Not just a magi-tech revolution. It falls apart into madness eventually because of arrogance and over-reach but it's not going to be a cold war with Odium or anyone else. That wouldn't be an Age of Legends. 

Would you please explain that to the millions of fans who love Mistborn EXCEPT FOR THE END? I'd rather you started with my wife, who keeps saying those exact words, more than 10 years later

That's why I said no happy ending, I think that for the cosmere Dalinar acting as Odium's servant is much more interesting, so he has to lose. Of course, I think Brandon surely knows that we expect this, and I bet he already has something prepared to surprise us. Which doesn't mean they won't still lose the duel, of course, but nothing is that simple, and there's always another secret, specially since we know Scarred Boy is lurking in the background.

[Kvothe the Bloodless he/him]

My guess is it's going to be an Avengers: Infinity War/Endgame sort of thing. The good guys will sort of lose in book five, but come back to fight again in part 2 of SA.

Then again, Brandon was surprised us so many times, I've lost count, so anything could happen.....

 

*cue ominous music*

[Harkain he/him]

3 minutes ago, Blood Of My Fathers said:

My guess is it's going to be an Avengers: Infinity War/Endgame sort of thing. The good guys will sort of lose in book five, but come back to fight again in part 2 of SA.

Then again, Brandon was surprised us so many times, I've lost count, so anything could happen.....

 

*cue ominous music*

I'm expecting for them to lose in some big capacity (Odium gets out or most of Roshar gets destroyed, etc) and a lot of character deaths (I am 100% expecting Dalinar to end up fused) but for them to also earn themselves some form of respite/peace.

[Aminar]

42 minutes ago, Alatar said:

Would you please explain that to the millions of fans who love Mistborn EXCEPT FOR THE END? I'd rather you started with my wife, who keeps saying those exact words, more than 10 years later

That's why I said no happy ending, I think that for the cosmere Dalinar acting as Odium's servant is much more interesting, so he has to lose. Of course, I think Brandon surely knows that we expect this, and I bet he already has something prepared to surprise us. Which doesn't mean they won't still lose the duel, of course, but nothing is that simple, and there's always another secret, specially since we know Scarred Boy is lurking in the background.

I don't think Dalinar under Odium is interesting. It's a betrayal of his arc and all the wonderful work Brandon did humanizing his trauma. But Kaladin dying and having Syl with a new Radiant in the back half has a ton of potential. Dalinar doesn't have to make it either. And Kaladin's noble sacrifice fits his arc, even though I don't want to see him die. Shallan is likely being set up as our World hopper. If she loses Adolin she becomes untethered from Roshar pretty well, especially if there's a little princesseling she wants to free from Kholin expectations. Either way we're going to hit a trajectory where there's peace and harmony leading into the back half and Navani has to live for that to happen. Possibly

[kaellok he/him]

Sanderson has said openly before that he writes his stories to have more optimistic endings to them to stand in contrast to the darkness that pervades the works of GRRM, Abercrombie, and others.  (And that this take is done intentionally.)  If we look at the body of his work, a series (and Book 5 of SA will be the end of a series) has always ended with the world in a more hopeful place than it began.  In general, we'll also see that each book will end with the surviving characters in a better place than they began.  There is still sacrifice, there is loss, but above all else there is hope that tomorrow will be better than today.

[ftl]

Brandon typically writes endings of the form "The heroes win... but turns out that was the easy part" or "The heroes win... but at a cost." With the former being more common mid-series. We don't have many series endings from him (just Mistborn), though.

The endings of series/books that I can think of him writing -

Mistborn era 1: Ending restoring the planet to green plants, with Sazed ascending. At the cost of Elend and Vin dying.

Warbreaker: War averted, Siri/Susebron in control of Hallandren, but Lightsong and Blushweaver die.

Elantris: Elantris restored (but a bunch of people die, including Hrathen who switches from badguy to goodguy).

Not counting endings of ongoing series (W&W, Stormlight) or novellas...

 

So I'm expecting in book 5, the heroes are going to successfully defend Roshar from Odium, and Dalinar's gonna beat Taravangian. But I think in that book, especially in the ending, none of our characters are safe and any ones of them could actually die (I personally am expecting Kaladin to have a sacrifice, but Dalinar is also a possibility of course).