That kinda-canon Moash AU

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

Back in-- when was in? Chapter 8, I think? When Renarin did his atium shadow thing at Moash.

If what Renarin works like actual atium shadows-- and why not, similar Cosmere powers tend to work on similar principles-- Protective Moash could have been a thing. I mean, people talk like Moash's character flaws made it inevitable he would go bad, but there was a real possibility, however small the chance, that he would have pulled his head out of his chull and gotten away from Graves's conspiracy before the point of no return.

The possibilities have been haunting me. What would Words of Radiance have been like without Moash as the secondary villain? What sort of redress might Moash have gotten out of Elhokar for the deaths of his grandparents (and he should have had redress, he was absolutely right to be angry at the horrible deaths of the only family he had), and would anything have been enough for him (should anything have been enough for him)? Would he and Kaladin have told anyone about the plot? What would Kaladin's arc look like without killing Syl with potential treason? Storms, would the climax have been Moash saying the Third Oath somehow? Who would Radiant Moash have given away his now-useless Blade to?

If Elhokar hadn't died. Would he have grown into being a better king? Would he have continued with the "highking" business? How would Elhokar have dealt with all the stress and insanity of the Rhythm-era world? Would Wit have taken up a sort of advisor role the way he seems to be doing with Jasnah? Speaking of Jasnah, would Elhokar be open to using the chaos for reforms, or would he have clamped down and tried to hold on to the social order he'd known?

Who would be Vyre? Were there other people among the human slaves with the Passion and martial skills to impress the Fused? Or was Moash an anomaly? Did they need a human to kill Jezrien? If the "Vyre" was a singer, as apparently was traditional, how might things have changed?

I can't stop thinking about this.

 

EDIT: this should probably have gone into character discussion, sorry, mods please move this?

Edited November 13, 2020 by Necessary Eagle

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

This sort of thinking (and indeed, the vision itself) is what makes me hope for a Moash Redemption Arc.

*Immediately Soulcasts a bucket of water in case I get burned at the stake*

But in all seriousness, he's got Jesrien's storming Honorblade. Sure, it makes for a convenient way to have an "evil Windrunner" because he doesn't need Oaths, but at the same time... I just have a feeling about it. They're of HONOR. It's in the NAME.

[Realmatic Shadow]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

This sort of thinking (and indeed, the vision itself) is what makes me hope for a Moash Redemption Arc.

*Immediately Soulcasts a bucket of water in case I get burned at the stake*

But in all seriousness, he's got Jesrien's storming Honorblade. Sure, it makes for a convenient way to have an "evil Windrunner" because he doesn't need Oaths, but at the same time... I just have a feeling about it. They're of HONOR. It's in the NAME.

As much as I would love to see Moash redeemed as a way of showing that, even if you go down the wrong path and are massively on the wrong side of the narrative, you always have a chance to be redeemed, I don't think it will happen. The part Moash has played until now has been a foil for Kaladin, kind of a way of showing what would've happened had he not fallen into his Radiant Oaths as much as he did, not opened his mind to different worldviews, and I think that that is a very important view to have now and into the future.

I would be curious if there are ways you can look into Vyre's character progression now to see hints of what might occur for Kaladin, or if the role as a direct foil has been lost and he is just a human POV that is on Odium's side.

[LuckyJim]

11 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

The possibilities have been haunting me. What would Words of Radiance have been like without Moash as the secondary villain? What sort of redress might Moash have gotten out of Elhokar for the deaths of his grandparents (and he should have had redress, he was absolutely right to be angry at the horrible deaths of the only family he had), and would anything have been enough for him (should anything have been enough for him)?

I've considered this from time to time, and I really can't see any possible resolution to this issue. The problem is no one has the authority to punish Elhokar, except Dalinar and maybe Navani, and Dalinar's response to the Roshone affair was to punish Roshone and hope that everyone else just forgets about it. Even if they could though, I don't think any potential redress would make things alright, even getting revenge wasn't particularly satisfying for Moash, none of that brings his grandparents back. I think what I'm most interested in is Elhokar's feelings on the affair, does it haunt him, or does he think it's not his fault because Roshone told him what to do, or since they were darkeyes it wasn't that bad.

11 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

If Elhokar hadn't died. Would he have grown into being a better king? Would he have continued with the "highking" business? How would Elhokar have dealt with all the stress and insanity of the Rhythm-era world? Would Wit have taken up a sort of advisor role the way he seems to be doing with Jasnah? Speaking of Jasnah, would Elhokar be open to using the chaos for reforms, or would he have clamped down and tried to hold on to the social order he'd known?

Another thing I've thought, as a hypothetical situation, let's say Elhokar isn't sent to Shadesmar with the others, Kholinar still falls and he has to help the citizens escape like Skar and Dhrey did at the end of Oathbringer themselves. I think the biggest problem they'd face is keeping the citizens from killing Elhokar, he basically abandoned them to play warrior king while Kholinar fell, even before the Everstorm they were only one dead ardent away from a full on peasant revolt, so things were pretty bad. It would have been interesting to see how he overcomes this challenge.

As for overturning the social order, I don't think he'd do as much as Jasnah, if anything at all. Elhokar is pretty insecure, and he'd likely just clamp down to maintain order over his kingdom and his own position. Jasnah's motivation for social reform seems morally motivated to a decent degree, which is likely because she's so much more worldly experienced than Elhokar. Of course, there is the possibility that he starts using his Lightweaving to disguise himself as a commoner to avoid potential assassins, and in doing this becomes more conscious of the difficulties faced by darkeyes.

[Rainier]

14 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Protective Moash could have been a thing. I mean, people talk like Moash's character flaws made it inevitable he would go bad, but there was a real possibility, however small the chance, that he would have pulled his head out of his chull and gotten away from Graves's conspiracy before the point of no return.

I don't see why this is a surprise. Moash and Kaladin are the same person. They are two sides of the same coin. That's why Kaladin agreed to help Moash in the first place/

That's also why I'll defend Moash endlessly. Kaladin's mistake was pledging to protect Elhokar, not promising to kill him. Elhokar was a crap character and a worse king, I'm glad he got what was coming to him for his years of misrule. He, more than any other, is the reason why Alethkar fell to the singers.

14 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Who would be Vyre? Were there other people among the human slaves with the Passion and martial skills to impress the Fused? Or was Moash an anomaly? Did they need a human to kill Jezrien? If the "Vyre" was a singer, as apparently was traditional, how might things have changed?

I'm guessing Moash was an anomaly, and that they did need a human to kill Jezrien, probably because the Oathpact was a pact with very clear racial lines. Humans on one side, singers on the other. Honor pledging to protect humans from the singers means that a singer killing Jezrien would have just continued the Oathpact cycle.

It remains to be seen how this gets explained, but I'm excited for it.

12 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

But in all seriousness, he's got Jesrien's storming Honorblade.

Moash is one of the new Heralds that many expect to be created? I could get behind it. There's your redemption arc everyone: he gets to be tortured for eternity, but he saves humanity doing so.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

Moash is one of the new Heralds that many expect to be created? I could get behind it. There's your redemption arc everyone: he gets to be tortured for eternity, but he saves humanity doing so.

Precisely. Who better to take Jesrien's place than the person who got rid of him and, in the opinion of many, deserves the torture?

[LuckyJim]

On 11/13/2020 at 0:30 PM, Rainier said:

That's also why I'll defend Moash endlessly. Kaladin's mistake was pledging to protect Elhokar, not promising to kill him. Elhokar was a crap character and a worse king, I'm glad he got what was coming to him for his years of misrule. He, more than any other, is the reason why Alethkar fell to the singers.

Spicy take, but I can get behind it. On a related note, I kind of despise the idea of Moash being a dutiful member of Bridge 4. On one hand, it would be kind of interesting for Elhokar to have a constant reminder of his crimes right in front of him, but on the other that would require Moash to sacrifice his dignity and his ideals. Why should he relegate himself to protecting the leader of a system that consistently abused and oppressed him and people like him?

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

58 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

Spicy take, but I can get behind it. On a related note, I kind of despise the idea of Moash being a dutiful member of Bridge 4. On one hand, it would be kind of interesting for Elhokar to have a constant reminder of his crimes right in front of him, but on the other that would require Moash to sacrifice his dignity and his ideals. Why should he relegate himself to protecting the leader of a system that consistently abused and oppressed him and people like him?

Maybe non-fallen Moash would have been a better fit for a different order. Okay, that's straying a bit from the premise of my OP, but just because he was in Bridge Four doesn't mean he was Windrunner material. People keep speculating that Rlain or Rock, for example, are going to join the Willshapers or Bondsmiths or what-have-you. Maybe Dustrunner-- "I will obtain self-mastery" seems to be a a good complement to Moash's flaw of not accepting responsibility for himself.

 

But I agree, Windrunner-Moash would present a lot of issues that I'm not good enough at AU's to untangle. Something would have to give, and would have to do so in a constructive manner.