Black Sphere What We Actually Know.

[Karger he/him]

As usual whenever the black spheres show up theories start flying around.  Everyone including me has some opinion that the facts come together in some obvious and perfect way.  I think stepping back and just looking at when information we have in the black and white.

Gavilar has duplicates.

Spoiler

Jofwu

Gavilar's black sphere. What was inside of it and how many does he have?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it is what you think it is. And he had-- yeah... He had access to several. Did we canonize this Karen?

Karen Ahlstrom

*shakes head*

Brandon Sanderson

No, we haven't canonized it. I'm going to say RAFO on the number, but it is what you think it is and what the third book implies that it is.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

While I don't think we know the exact number duplicates existing implies that it is either not a single great spren like an unmade or the sibling.  The only other possibility is that each one is somehow unique(supported by Navani's description later) but that implies that Gavilar has managed to track down and capture a large number of these.

These duplicates are identical(or at least the same class/type of thing).

Spoiler

chasmfriend

Was the black sphere that Gavilar gave to Eshonai, did it contain the same thing that he gave to Szeth?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! A question I can answer about the black sphere.

chasmfriend

So same contents?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

It is heavily invested.

Spoiler

TheKingOfCarrotFlowers (paraphrased)

The sphere which Gavilar found that Szeth now has--I've been lead to believe that it either is or was heavily invested...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

TheKingOfCarrotFlowers (paraphrased)

Is it still heavily invested?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

TheKingOfCarrotFlowers (paraphrased)

So, it hasn't, like, gone dun or anything?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, it has not.

TheKingOfCarrotFlowers (paraphrased)

And I'm going to take that to mean it wasn't invested with Stormlight--was it invested by Odium?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Something like that.

Firefight Portland signing (Jan. 16, 2015)

Nothing earthshaking but confirmation is good.

It is vaguely but not directly related to the Davar household's situation in Jah Kavad

Spoiler

Questioner

So, what happened to Shallan's family? As in--her brothers--the things that happened to Shallan's family, is that related to the black sphere from Gavilar that Szeth hid in Jah Keved?

Brandon Sanderson

It's vaguely related but not specifically.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

It is not directly so not the unmade directly causing all the issues.

Navani's PoV in her prologue.

Spoiler

...lay a group of spheres. Navani’s breath caught as she saw them. They were arrayed in a variety of colors and brightness, but several seemed strangely off. They glowed with an inverse of light, as if they were little pits of violet darkness, sucking in the color around them...

No variation in size although great variety in color and brightness.  Whatever is in these things variation exists between them.

Szeth's PoV

Spoiler

He pulled out a small crystalline sphere tied to a chain. “You must take this. They must not get it.”

Szeth says this is small.  Honor's drop by comparison. 

Quote

The ruby is the size of a child's head and when infused glows with a blood-red light as bright as daylight.^[1]

Is considerably larger.  Unless one of the other unmade are much much much smaller then this is not an unmade.  A counterpoint is that some of the unmade might be small enough to be contained in this type of housing like Yalig-nar's smokestone.

Rlain

Spoiler

I don’t know what that is, Brightness, he’d said. But it feels painful. Voidlight is dangerously inviting, like if I touched it, my body would drink it in eagerly. That thing… is different. It has a song I’ve never heard, and it vibrates wrong against my soul.

ITS ALIVE!  I really don't see how Rlain could get this impression from something that was not at least sentient.  Kaladin gets impressions from stormlight as well but they are much more vague.

Nem.

Spoiler

Practically flawless,” Nem said, clamping the sphere in some small grips. “This wasn’t grown as a gemheart, I can tell you that. The structure would never align so perfectly. This sphere is worth thousands, Brightness. It will probably hold Stormlight for months without leaking any out. Maybe years. Longer, for Voidlight.”

Whatever is in there is vary valuable, very dangerous or both.  Gavilar would not waste such a secure gemstone for something he could catch easily whenever he felt like it.  A counterargument might be he just needed to transport it over long distances but given "the box" is an interplanetary travel device I would think he could launch from wherever he needed to.

Summery.  It is some type of spren or at least an invested entity.  I think that indisputable as it is a type of Odious investiture that is not voidlight.  It is probably not an Unmade(I can't prove it is not but a lot of evidence points against it).  Different types of it exist, including duplicates, but this one at least is super important and likely would want to escape given the opportunity.

PLEASE let me know if I missed something.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Karger

[+Oltux72 he/him]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

While I don't think we know the exact number duplicates existing implies that it is either not a single great spren like an unmade or the sibling.  The only other possibility is that each one is somehow unique(supported by Navani's description later) but that implies that Gavilar has managed to track down and capture a large number of these.

The Unmade are too well accounted for that. There may be another level of "void god spren" between them and the Fused, but there is no evidence for that. Unless you are proposing that an Unmade has been splintered?

10 hours ago, Karger said:

No variation in size although great variety in color and brightness.  Whatever is in these things variation exists between them.

Gavilar may also have caught some ordinary spren. In fact, if his expeditions to Braize involved some kind of trap he is likely to have tested it on ordinary spren first.

10 hours ago, Karger said:

ITS ALIVE!  I really don't see how Rlain could get this impression from something that was not at least sentient.

Venli got impressions from the voidspren making her a Regal and those are subsentient.

10 hours ago, Karger said:

Whatever is in there is vary valuable, very dangerous or both.  Gavilar would not waste such a secure gemstone for something he could catch easily whenever he felt like it.  A counterargument might be he just needed to transport it over long distances but given "the box" is an interplanetary travel device I would think he could launch from wherever he needed to.

Possibly the quality of the gem is needed for the intended use of whatever is trapped inside it, not for the storage of the content.

 

[+Child of Hodor]

 

8 hours ago, Karger said:

 

  Hide contents

I don’t know what that is, Brightness, he’d said. But it feels painful. Voidlight is dangerously inviting, like if I touched it, my body would drink it in eagerly. That thing… is different. It has a song I’ve never heard, and it vibrates wrong against my soul.

ITS ALIVE!  I really don't see how Rlain could get this impression from something that was not at least sentient.  Kaladin gets impressions from stormlight as well but they are much more vague.

Nem.

  Hide contents

Practically flawless,” Nem said, clamping the sphere in some small grips. “This wasn’t grown as a gemheart, I can tell you that. The structure would never align so perfectly. This sphere is worth thousands, Brightness. It will probably hold Stormlight for months without leaking any out. Maybe years. Longer, for Voidlight.”

Whatever is in there is vary valuable, very dangerous or both.  Gavilar would not waste such a secure gemstone for something he could catch easily whenever he felt like it.  A counterargument might be he just needed to transport it over long distances but given "the box" is an interplanetary travel device I would think he could launch from wherever he needed to.

Summery.  It is some type of spren or at least an invested entity.  I think that indisputable.  It is not an Unmade(I can't prove it is not but all evidence points against it).  Different types of it exist but this one at least is super important and likely would want to escape given the opertuinity.

PLEASE let me know if I missed something.

I agree it has to be some living entity of investiture (spren or similar). The RoW heavily implies they sent the gemstones to Braize and back with the box. The Unmade don't seem to go back to Braize in between Desolations, the Fused do and maybe Odium's less powerful spren as well. Ulim mentions "I am the one who escaped. The spren of redemption" WoR I-3. The lesser voidspren may or may not go back. Unless Ulim was trapped in a gem on Roshar.

To butcher a famous saying "a portion of Damnation is empty and all the Unmade are here". If what's in there was captured on Braize then it wasn't an Unmade.

Could be a Fused

Outside chance it is a Fused in there. Gavilar specifically told Eshonai he's returning their gods when he gives one of the gems. The Fused were on Braize, they don't have bodies of their own anymore, Braize is an ice planet with only cognitive shadows living on it per Khriss in Arcanum Unbounded's Roshar essay. They'd be in their investiture form most likely. Or at least the ones that are sleeping would be. The Fused were asleep or a lot of them were and they don't necessarily the status of the others. Leshwi is shocked that the "Lady of Wishes" is out.  The Fused do fuss about the humans being close to figuring out how to trap a Fused in RoW Ch. 14. 

Quote

“One way or another,” Raboniel said, “this is the final Return. The humans will soon discover how to imprison us.

Maybe Gavilar did it already and the Fused don't realize it, they assume the imprisoned ones are still sleeping on Braize. Or the Fused know what Gavilar did and they know Navani has the black gemstone and is studying it. 

 

There are still some reasons to think there is an Unmade in there:

Aesudan Said Gavilar Found One Unmade

Aesudan says Gavilar "found" 1 Unmade, but never figured out how to bond it. Then bragged she has multiple Unmade and "solved the riddle" of how to bond one (OB Ch. 84). Since she is bragging about having multiple Unmade, it could be interpreted as her getting several that weren't the one Gavilar had. She didn't inherit the one Gavilar found, that one was not available she got 3 new ones. Sja-Anat, Ashertman and Yelig-nar (who she bonded). It's also possible she inherited one and attracted the other two. 

King's Drop and Unmade Size Variety (Yelig-Nar fit in a small smokestone)

Navani first mentions having seen Gavilar's black sphere(s) upon seeing The Thrill trapped in The King's Drop. Which feels like a clue. As you mentioned the King's Drop is massive while the dark spheres Gavilar had are not.  The size of Unmade may vary and we've seen some evidence that it does. The mindless spren with a large area of effect could be massive, like Nergaoul. The Unmade we've seen that alter people directly by touch or bonding are more human / Singer sized. We've seen Sja-Anat in mirrors as a woman-sized figure and she alters individual spren she "touches".   We've seen Yelig-Nar (standing next Odium near the end of OB) and he's man-sized black smoke who can fit in a single smokestone and bonds a single person. So at least one Unmade can fit in a small gemstone. 

Ba-Ado-Mishram provided forms and Voidlight between Desolations

Ba-Ado-Mishram was the source of the problem during the False Desolation. She could Connect directly the Singers providing forms of Power normally not available when Braize was locked up, she could also provide Voidlight. Ado in her name means light, like Adolin means "Born unto Light" https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ba-Ado-Mishram

In the RoW prologue Gavilar mentions warping a connection to transport things to Braize and back in his box experiment. I assumed it was the Heralds connection that makes them go back when they die, but it could be Ba-Ado-Mishram's connection. She was getting the Voidlight to Roshar in between Desolations pre-Everstorm, somehow. She may have the ability to pull it from Braize when she's free. The box experiment may have been to send the gemstone(s) with her inside to Braize using the box and see if she could pull Voidlight in despite being trapped. 

Ba-Ado-Mishram Size, Multiples

She's got the best of both Unmade types we've seen: Smart like Sja-Anat and power to alter individuals, but with a massive area of effect. She had the ability to Connect all the Singers on Roshar during the False Desolation, minus the Listeners, and provide them with what I assume were various forms. She's not like The Thrill that does the same thing to everyone, she can Connect a ton of people at once and give them different things. She might be really big or she might be take the form of multiple entities that are really one. Re-Shephir does this, most of her is hanging out around the pillar in Urithiru while she sends her mimics out. 

It's possible she could fit in one like Yelig-nar. Or the multiple gemstones could contain parts of her either because she has multiple separate forms or she's too big to fit in one of the flawless gems the old KR had on hand when they imprisoned her, so they used several. If mere mortals (at the time) can split Adonalsium in 16, Radiants can split a spren. 

Meta-Reasons

Wouldn't it be funny if it's just Ulim's brother in there? For a mystery object that has seemed important since the book 1 prologue it would be a bit of let down if it was an entity less significant than an Unmade or a Fused. We didn't exactly know the Fused existed until book 3, so there could be some other important entity we aren't aware of yet. 

[Karger he/him]

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Unmade are too well accounted for that. There may be another level of "void god spren" between them and the Fused, but there is no evidence for that. Unless you are proposing that an Unmade has been splintered?

I am not although I suppose that is also a possibility.

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Gavilar may also have caught some ordinary spren. In fact, if his expeditions to Braize involved some kind of trap he is likely to have tested it on ordinary spren first.

Why would he show off a collection of ordinary spren?

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Venli got impressions from the voidspren making her a Regal and those are subsentient.

Sentient rather then sapient.

38 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Wouldn't it be funny if it's just Ulim's brother in there? For a mystery object that has seemed important since the book 1 prologue it would be a bit of let down if it was an entity less significant than an Unmade or a Fused. We didn't exactly know the Fused existed until book 3, so there could be some other important entity we aren't aware of yet. 

A lot of what you say makes sense but not all of it can be proved.  I will try and include Aesudan's comments and your smokestone point is also relevant.  However I do not find your meta point compelling.  The significance of the sphere does not need to be what is in them but rather how and why Gavilar made them in the first place.

38 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Aesudan says Gavilar "found" 1 Unmade, but never figured out how to bond it. Then bragged she has multiple Unmade and "solved the riddle" of how to bond one (OB Ch. 84). Since she is bragging about having multiple Unmade, it could be interpreted as her getting several that weren't the one Gavilar had. She didn't inherit the one Gavilar found, that one was not available she got 3 new ones. Sja-Anat, Ashertman and Yelig-nar (who she bonded). It's also possible she inherited one and attracted the other two. 

I just checked Aesudan's comment and well

Quote

“Have you seen my Radiants?” Aesudan asked. She grinned. “The Queen’s Guard? I’ve done what your father could not. Oh, he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it. But I, I have solved the riddle.”

could just as easily be the stormfather.  It does not have to be an unmade.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Karger

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Why would he show off a collection of ordinary spren?

As a control group

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

We've seen Yelig-Nar (standing next Odium near the end of OB) and he's man-sized black smoke who can fit in a single smokestone and bonds a single person. So at least one Unmade can fit in a small gemstone. 

Yelig-Nar went into that stone voluntarily. Concluding that a stone that can house him could also trap him is daring.

[Karger he/him]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

As a control group

Maybe. 

20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yelig-Nar went into that stone voluntarily. Concluding that a stone that can house him could also trap him is daring.

But not impossible

[+Bzhydack he/him]

59 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yelig-Nar went into that stone voluntarily. Concluding that a stone that can house him could also trap him is daring.

Probably... it can. If noone would swallow Gem after he entered it, Yelig-Nar would be trapped in it.

[+Bliev she/her]

@Karger you make excellent points here. I think given this evidence, it suggests a voidspren. or a Fused. The strange song Rlain had never heard makes me think of the songs that Venli couldn't understand that the 9 were humming. It would make sense that the perfect gem might have been needed for transport from Braize--maybe a less than perfect "house" would exacerbate connection issues and make it harder to get something off world? It would explain how Gavilar thinks this is a singer "god" and also why the perfect gem would be what Gavilar wants to keep away from the secret societies on Roshar?

[+Child of Hodor]

47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

As a control group

Yelig-Nar went into that stone voluntarily. Concluding that a stone that can house him could also trap him is daring.

5 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Probably... it can. If noone would swallow Gem after he entered it, Yelig-Nar would be trapped in it.

The flawlessness of a gem is what traps them, not the size. It's about the natural structure of the gem at a microscopic level combined with how it's cut. Navani says the spren they've been using in fabrials can't escape as long as you don't mess up the structure of the gem. She's talking about short term though, she hasn't observed one trapped for centuries. I think Yelig-nar would escape from a gem eventually if it isn't flawless. Re-Shephir was trapped and then escaped at some point.  Someone could have let her out I guess. 

Quote

All gemstones leak Stormlight at a slow rate—but so long as the crystal structure remains mostly intact, the spren cannot escape. RoW Ch. 14 Epigraph

Flawless or perfect gems hold Stormlight indefinitely.

Quote

"At Celebrant the moneychangers have perfect gemstones that can hold light indefinitely." Ico in OB Ch. 99

The King's Drop is described as holding Stormlight for an extremely long time and is used to trap the Thrill.

Quote

"What made the King's Drop unique was that it was still glowing --over two hundred years after first being locked in the vault." OB CH. 

The scholar with Navani describes the black sphere as being able to hold Stormlight for years. 

Quote

“Practically flawless,” Nem said, clamping the sphere in some small grips. “This wasn’t grown as a gemheart, I can tell you that. The structure would never align so perfectly. This sphere is worth thousands, Brightness. It will probably hold Stormlight for months without leaking any out. Maybe years. Longer, for Voidlight.” RoW Chapter 16

Karger's point was that the gem Gavilar had is much smaller gem than the one containing The Thrill, so we don't know if it's large enough to contain something like the Thrill. I'm saying some Unmade are small enough to fit in regular stones, so a smaller flawless gem that holds Stormlight indefinitely could be big enough for a different Unmade because the Unmade aren't necessarily all the same size. 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

18 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Karger's point was that the gem Gavilar had is much smaller gem than the one containing The Thrill, so we don't know if it's large enough to contain something like the Thrill. I'm saying some Unmade are small enough to fit in regular stones, so a smaller flawless gem that holds Stormlight indefinitely could be big enough for a different Unmade because the Unmade aren't necessarily all the same size. 

Yeah, but size of Unmade seems to reflect how wide is his influence. Yelig-Nar can influence one person, Nergaoul can influence entire army. Even Armies. Moelach seems to have wide area of influence, but Sia-Anat isnt much larger than human and mostly can change only spren who is close to her - but her influence is permanent.

According to that, Ba-Ado-Mishram should be massive, because he was able to influence whole race!

[Karger he/him]

28 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The flawlessness of a gem is what traps them, not the size. It's about the natural structure of the gem at a microscopic level combined with how it's cut. Navani says the spren they've been using in fabrials can't escape as long as you don't mess up the structure of the gem. She's talking about short term though, she hasn't observed one trapped for centuries. I think Yelig-nar would escape from a gem eventually if it isn't flawless. Re-Shephir was trapped and then escaped at some point.  Someone could have let her out I guess. 

I think the point is that you need a gemstone of sufficient size to contain a spren the size of an unmade.  It does make sense(to me at least) that a larger gemstone would also be better because you could avoid "compression."  This is speculative anyway

Why are also a bit unsure of the mechanics involved with Yalig-nar.  Odium calls it a "housing" not a prison(like the kings drop) so I would say he could escape.  Also if all of the Yalig-nar was in there he must be pretty small by unmade standards.  This would fit with his MO though.  One single concentration of great power.  Appealing to the arrogance of an individual idiot.

35 minutes ago, Bliev said:

. It would make sense that the perfect gem might have been needed for transport from Braize--maybe a less than perfect "house" would exacerbate connection issues and make it harder to get something off world?

Possibly?  I suppose the transport or trapping process could have just required a perfect gem but I really don't see how.  We have no indication that they work any way but what we are told.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Karger

[+Child of Hodor]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

could just as easily be the stormfather.  It does not have to be an unmade.

I see what you are saying, but I really don't think that's what "ancient spren" was meant as there.

There are 9(!) times the phrase "ancient spren" is used in OB:  2 by Aesudan, 1 by Wit in his "Girl Who Looked Up" that's described as "an ancient spren that can live inside her brain".  Every other time that phrase is used it's to refer to the Unmade. 

"His minons, ancient spren" Stormfather describing the Unmade OB Ch. 1

"This ... this is a thing from long ago. Long, long ago ,,,"  "An ancient spren of Odium. Delightful" Shallan and Pattern discussing what the source of the wrongness in Urithiru that ends up being an Unmade. 

"It was a different Unmade here; another ancient spren of Odium"  OB Ch. 62

"They're likely ancient spren, primal,"  Shallan reading a book on the Unmade OB Ch. 77

"How could they trust an ancient spren of Odium?" OB Ch. 85 Shallan thinking about Sja-Anat

"One of the Unmade certainly. An ancient spren of Odium" Venli looking at the Thrill OB CH. 116

Also, Taravangian refers to an Unmade as "An ancient, evil spren" in WoR I-14.

Back to Aesudan, she said Gavilar "found" an ancient spren. The Stormfather finds you. He was ordered to seek out people to bond. It's not like the Stormfather is unheard of, something to "find" and rediscover. The Unmade were thought by most to never have existed or been gone a long time. 

She says he didn't know how to bond the one he found. Gavilar bonded the Stormfather. He was farther along in the bond than Dalinar was as of WoR.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2509

I concede she might not know that he bonded the Stormfather. It's not like you can look at someone and tell. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Karger he/him]

4 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I see what you are saying, but I really don't think that's what "ancient spren" was meant as there.

That is not admittedly what she might mean but she is also a certified idiot who I doubt Gavilar confided in much.  Think through the rest of the statement.  Why on earth would Gavilar want to bond an unmade?  He was already bonded to the stormfather!  Also finding an unmade is not exactly hard on Roshar.  Anyone who has read Hessi's mythica can find the thrill, and moalach just using a few informants and some mathematical modeling.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Karger

[+robardin he/him]

Good summary.

As I noted somewhere at the bottom of a post in the recent Ch 16 thread, the way that Gavilar behaves towards Navani and Jasnah -- coldly angry, cruel without being directly violent, and insisting that Jasnah marry Amaram because he wills it so and she must obey -- are spot on to how Lin Davar acts... But only after Gavilar is killed.

Shallan noted in Ch 61 of WoR ("Obedience"), a flashback to "one and a half years ago" not long before she kills her father, that this "darkness in his eyes" was related to this "new anger of his", as well as his sudden desire to become rich and influential. It sure feels like something malevolent was influencing Gavilar to desire power and domination, and then moved on to the Davar household.

As for the spheres, why did he hand only this specific one to Szeth and not his entire bag? Which was later found empty by Navani. It's almost as if, as he lay dying, he realized this one in particular was especially dangerous, yet that someone In The Know would come looking for them after he died and an empty bag would be far more noticed than a bag containing many spheres but missing one (a full tally perhaps not being known).

What that would imply for this one, that warps space and feels like it as an evil rhythm to Rlain where even the ruby containing Nergaoul evidently did not, we don't know yet. All we know is, it's not simply a perfect (non-leaky) gem containing Voidlight - they already have Voidlight in spheres and this is not the same. Perhaps it's an imprisoned Thunderclast?

And yes, what was the "ancient spren" that Aesudan knows, or thinks she knows, that Gavilar found? She speaks here like she was high up or in with the Sons of Honor.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That is not admittedly what she might mean but she is also a certified idiot who I doubt Gavilar confided in much.  Think through the rest of the statement.  Why on earth would Gavilar want to bond an unmade?  He was already bonded to the stormfather!  Also finding an unmade is not exactly hard on Roshar.  Anyone who has read Hessi's mythica can find the thrill, and moalach just using a few informants and some mathematical modeling.

Hessi's Mythica isnt popular and is questioned by many scholars. We know it is true, but on Roshar their Scholars dont. Also, Nergaoul and Moelach are present mostly in Cognitive Realm, as well as Ashertmarn or Sia-Anat.You can see their influence, but you canot "find" them, because they are not in Physical Realm. Re-Sephir was present in Physical Realm, but we know exactly where, so she is out. This leaves us Yelig-Nar - he may be the easiest to pull into PR, maybe because of his small size?

Also, is another ancient entity what normaly have shape of spren.

Sphere may contain Thunderclast.

[Karger he/him]

37 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Hessi's Mythica isnt popular and is questioned by many scholars

Many scholars who did not know a desolation was coming and that the unmade were real.  Gavilar could understand both.

38 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, Nergaoul and Moelach are present mostly in Cognitive Realm, as well as Ashertmarn or Sia-Anat.You can see their influence, but you canot "find" them, because they are not in Physical Realm

Gavilar is aware of how to get to the CR.  If he pinpointed their physical location he could easily send a group of people to the other side.

39 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, is another ancient entity what normaly have shape of spren.

Sphere may contain Thunderclast.

I count Thunderclasts as spren.  I do think that what is in the sphere is somewhat similar.  To use the video game logic that keeps pooping up in my mind.  Warform singers are easy to mow down even with limited experience but you have to level up a bit before you can take any of the standard fused or regal.  More important/powerful fused serve as min bosses along with thunderclasts.  We know from Venli that the singer hierarchy includes other weird high level beings at a similar level to thunderclasts.  Perhaps this is a smaller type of spren that operates more based on magic then on strength?

[+Bzhydack he/him]

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Gavilar is aware of how to get to the CR.  If he pinpointed their physical location he could easily send a group of people to the other side.

So why he didnt do that, if it is so easy?

And how you know that he knows how to get into Shadesmar? He knows how to teleport stuff on Braize, but, as we saw in Oathgates case, that teleporting device can be restrictet, if you want to use it to get into Shadesmar. His device may not allow him to travel into Shadesmar (too small?), and his other possibilities are:

- Perpendicularity - on Horneaters Peaks. Far away and Horneaters arent friendly.

- Oathgate- locked.

- Battar's or Kalak's Honorblade. In Shinovar. Even less available than Perpendicularity.

- Elsecaller or WIllshaper. Horay, he has Elsecaller nearby, and she is his dauther!

So, maybe he is aware of Jasnah's powers and this is why he wants to forced her to marry Amaram?

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

So why he didnt do that, if it is so easy?

Because he did not want to?  The unmade probably did not factor into his plans.  The ability to find, talk to, and potentially bond with an unmade were probably not appealing to him.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

And how you know that he knows how to get into Shadesmar?

A number of clues indicate he has some breath.  Additionally the Heralds both know and he is talking to them(no way they do not know), the GB's know and he is aware of them, we know Resteres knows(Mraize says they were confidants).  Heck even Amaram had budding cosmere awareness according to WoBs.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

- Perpendicularity - on Horneaters Peaks. Far away and Horneaters arent friendly.

They are not super unfriendly.  Mraize and co just don't want to deal with them.  Travel to and from Roshar is pretty common.  Plenty of people manage it.  There is even trade.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

Because he did not want to?  The unmade probably did not factor into his plans.  The ability to find, talk to, and potentially bond with an unmade were probably not appealing to him.

So why Aesudan is talking that he found Ancient Spren? To found something you have to search actively for. He was also interested in Braize. Why he transported his box there? It could be Ashyn as well. Heck, Ashyn will be better - is inhabitated, accesable from Shadesmar, you can send team on other side and check what happens, is something go wrong. If he is cosmere-aware, he would know that there are still men there .But he chooses Braize.

He knows where Nightwatcher is, so he didnt need to find her. He knows where Stormfather is, so he didnt need to find him. He even starts to bond him, so Aesudan words about Ancient Spren are not about Stormfather. Also, godspren never are described as "Ancient Spren" (they are ancient, of course, but they are never described by this phrase). Also, Gavilar didnt figured out how to bond  Ancient Spren doesnt mean he himself wants to bond it - maybe he wants bond it to someone else.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

They are not super unfriendly.  Mraize and co just don't want to deal with them.  Travel to and from Roshar is pretty common.  Plenty of people manage it.  There is even trade.

Trade is on every Shardworld besides Taldain. If travel to and from Roshar is as common, why we didnt see any Rosharan worldhopper? We know about Nalthians (Scholars+Vivienna+Nightblood), Scadrians (Yiatil, Demoux, Felt and misterius kandra), Taldainians (Khriss, Baon), even Threnodians (Nazh) and Selish (Galladon, Riino - is in CR, but still its Rosharan CR) plus Mraize (we dont know from). No Rosharans.

Also, Horneater Peaks are in Vedenar, this is still foreign country. Also, other thing to go trade with Horneaters, and other to try swim i their oceans. This is not something what Horneaters allow strangers to do, if I remember correctly.

[Pathfinder]

52 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Trade is on every Shardworld besides Taldain. If travel to and from Roshar is as common, why we didnt see any Rosharan worldhopper? We know about Nalthians (Scholars+Vivienna+Nightblood), Scadrians (Yiatil, Demoux, Felt and misterius kandra), Taldainians (Khriss, Baon), even Threnodians (Nazh) and Selish (Galladon, Riino - is in CR, but still its Rosharan CR) plus Mraize (we dont know from). No Rosharans.

Also, Horneater Peaks are in Vedenar, this is still foreign country. Also, other thing to go trade with Horneaters, and other to try swim i their oceans. This is not something what Horneaters allow strangers to do, if I remember correctly.

Just dropping by to say there is a WoB that confirms that way back when, elsecallers were world hoppers. Will add it in a bit. On my phone now.

 

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

On a similar note, since Elsecallers can physically go to Shadesmar and have access to Transportation surge, can all Elsecallers worldhop?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that is one of the Elsecaller powers.

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

In hindsight this seems like a really obvious question now *laugh*, but I think it's really interesting that Elsecallers can travel to other planets too--we didn't know that before.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There are hints in the names on the map of Shadesmar.

Minicon 2015 (April 2, 2015) Edited October 22, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Lemiltock]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

So why Aesudan is talking that he found Ancient Spren? To found something you have to search actively for. He was also interested in Braize. Why he transported his box there? It could be Ashyn as well. Heck, Ashyn will be better - is inhabitated, accesable from Shadesmar, you can send team on other side and check what happens, is something go wrong. If he is cosmere-aware, he would know that there are still men there .But he chooses Braize.

He knows where Nightwatcher is, so he didnt need to find her. He knows where Stormfather is, so he didnt need to find him. He even starts to bond him, so Aesudan words about Ancient Spren are not about Stormfather. Also, godspren never are described as "Ancient Spren" (they are ancient, of course, but they are never described by this phrase). Also, Gavilar didnt figured out how to bond  Ancient Spren doesnt mean he himself wants to bond it - maybe he wants bond it to someone else.

Trade is on every Shardworld besides Taldain. If travel to and from Roshar is as common, why we didnt see any Rosharan worldhopper? We know about Nalthians (Scholars+Vivienna+Nightblood), Scadrians (Yiatil, Demoux, Felt and misterius kandra), Taldainians (Khriss, Baon), even Threnodians (Nazh) and Selish (Galladon, Riino - is in CR, but still its Rosharan CR) plus Mraize (we dont know from). No Rosharans.

Also, Horneater Peaks are in Vedenar, this is still foreign country. Also, other thing to go trade with Horneaters, and other to try swim i their oceans. This is not something what Horneaters allow strangers to do, if I remember correctly.

Mraize is confirmed to be from Roshar fyi

Quote

Khyrindor

So, I was hoping to get a confirmation on Mraize's age?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd probably-- Well, what did I say before?

Khyrindor

Not sure, I was just asking the question.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay good, I didn't think that I had confirmed this. I'm going to RAFO it.

Khyrindor

Like, is he older than a normal person?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO it, yeah. Let's say though, that, though he has been off-world, he himself is a Rosharan.

Khyrindor

A Roshar native?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

So why Aesudan is talking that he found Ancient Spren?

I don't think we can take anything she says at face value.  Remember she called those possessed guards her radiants.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Why he transported his box there?

He was clearly interested in(from Eshonai's viewpoint even counting on) the onset of a desolation.  Of course he would servery the enemy forces ahead of time.  Think about how much an up to date report on the fused's moral and capabilities would be worth politically when they showed up.  He also may have wanted something from them.  We really don't know.  Either way we are going strait to theoryland.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

He knows where Nightwatcher is, so he didnt need to find her. He knows where Stormfather is, so he didnt need to find him. He even starts to bond him, so Aesudan words about Ancient Spren are not about Stormfather.

If she knew about the stormfather.  We are giving an obviously imbecilic person a lot of credibility if we take what she says as truth.  The way I see it Aesudan was a useful idiot that got caught up in Gavilar's plans was awed by their scope, told that she was important to them, and picked up a few pieces of information.  She then used this to generate what she thought was an accurate picture of what Gavilar was doing, patted herself on the back, and then attempted to in his absence follow through on what she thought was his plan.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, godspren never are described as "Ancient Spren" (they are ancient, of course, but they are never described by this phrase).

"Have never been described" is different from "it would be wrong to describe."

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

No Rosharans.

Mraize is a Roshar native and has in fact worldhopped.  Also I must point out that nearly ever person you quoted was seen on Roshar.

5 hours ago, robardin said:

As I noted somewhere at the bottom of a post in the recent Ch 16 thread, the way that Gavilar behaves towards Navani and Jasnah -- coldly angry, cruel without being directly violent, and insisting that Jasnah marry Amaram because he wills it so and she must obey -- are spot on to how Lin Davar acts... But only after Gavilar is killed.

Shallan noted in Ch 61 of WoR ("Obedience"), a flashback to "one and a half years ago" not long before she kills her father, that this "darkness in his eyes" was related to this "new anger of his", as well as his sudden desire to become rich and influential. It sure feels like something malevolent was influencing Gavilar to desire power and domination, and then moved on to the Davar household.

Interesting but one of the WoBs I referenced confirms that what was in the sphere itself was not particularly significant in terms of the Davar household.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Karger

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, Karger said:

Interesting but one of the WoBs I referenced confirms that what was in the sphere itself was not particularly significant in terms of the Davar household.

I didn't mean to imply it was the Unmade in the sphere he gave to Szeth - obviously impossible since it was free to then move to Jah Keved after Gavilar died. But being influenced by an Unmade could have driven him to do something megalomaniacal, like not just capture Voidlight but... Whatever this is.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

14 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Mraize is confirmed to be from Roshar fyi

Thanks! But this is still only one Worldhopper, when we have few even from Threnody and Sel, places with much harder access to Cognitive Realm.

 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think we can take anything she says at face value.  Remember she called those possessed guards her radiants.

Even crazy, stil is our only relatively extensive source about events. Unless we get Gavilar's PoV, mean last book prologue, we have to work on what we have. And I find interesting that Gavilar is so interested with Braize, Fused, Unmade and Voidlight.

Also, posessed by Ashertmarn guards are technicly, from certain point of view, bonded to spren, so... ;-)

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Also I must point out that nearly ever person you quoted was seen on Roshar.

They are not "happen to be" on Roshar. They all are here on purpose (ok, maybe Felt just lives here, with his wife)

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

They are not "happen to be" on Roshar. They all are here on purpose (ok, maybe Felt just lives here, with his wife)

I don't think people travel the CR by accident(most of the time).  My point was that Roshar is very clearly accessible.  I also think that leaving roshar would be a pain(speaking literally as you are moving to a higher gravity lower oxygen environment).

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Even crazy, stil is our only relatively extensive source about events. Unless we get Gavilar's PoV, mean last book prologue, we have to work on what we have. And I find interesting that Gavilar is so interested with Braize, Fused, Unmade and Voidlight.

I mean sure he was clearly interested but I would not hit her up for details on actual plans.

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, posessed by Ashertmarn guards are technicly, from certain point of view, bonded to spren, so... ;-)

and the stormfather is technically an ancient spren.  I think your doing more of a stretch then me here.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Karger