What is Zahel's Intent?

[dgreene196]

This is something I've been thinking about for the past week, and I've got no ideas to which I'm strongly committed.

Anyone have any good thoughts on Zahel/Vasher's Intent?  Could it be as simple as he's drawn to conflict to try to end it?  I'm sure lots of folks have much better thoughts, which I would appreciate.

[LuckyJim]

6 hours ago, dgreene196 said:

This is something I've been thinking about for the past week, and I've got no ideas to which I'm strongly committed.

Anyone have any good thoughts on Zahel/Vasher's Intent?  Could it be as simple as he's drawn to conflict to try to end it?  I'm sure lots of folks have much better thoughts, which I would appreciate.

I think if anything it would be related to his scholarly pursuits, his desire to seek out and learn new things about magic and other subjects and pass it on to others. This could be why he takes a more non-intervention role in the Stormlight books.

[Raphaborn]

Grumble. A lot.

[+Bliev]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot since this morning. I wonder a couple of things. We know (warbreaker spoilers)

Spoiler

Returned seem to get their memory back as they approach the moment they give their breath away. 

Zahel bristles at this in this chapter—implying he does not yet know his own pre-return history. 
 

Quote

Because he hasn’t come to his moment in the future endowment foretold. 

His intent definitely seems scholarly in nature. And I wonder if his fossil is a hint. Wild speculation as I lay in bed trying to keep my phone from waking up my toddler:

his intent is related to broader cosmere knowledge. He is in fact exactly where he is supposed to be, as he’s learning about the worlds that exist. He has an ancient fossil that must predate the shattering. What does he know of it? Adonalsium was up to something preshattering...maybe that’s the knowledge that he’s set out to find so he can play a role in putting it all back together one day. The fossil seems major Easter egg to me. Some thing that will come back to be a symbol of something he is trying not to think about, but can’t stop thinking about. 
 

probably not. But it’s what I wondered about. 

[Malim]

While I like the idea of Zahel's Intent being that of a scholar, I don't think that it plays into Endowment's long game.  Remember what she said: if Rayze/Odium becomes a problem, he will be dealt with.

How do you deal with a Shard?  Tying them to a system or Shattering them.  He is currently bound to the system, but what if he gets out?  That would leave Shattering as the only option as I doubt he would allow himself to be bound again.  Here's the problem: would Endowment risk a direct confrontation in which she is just as likely to get Shattered as Odium is?  Or even more likely to get Shattered as she is Invested and he isn't, and therefore has less raw power to bring to bear?  She seems pretty confident regardless.

Enter Zahel.  He Returned, travelled, learned, and made Nightblood.  A sword that destroys Investure, a sword that WoB states even Shards should fear.  Is that the answer?  Zahel was Returned as a fail safe.  Yes, he gave up Nightblood, but he is still on Roshar.  If he just wanted to avoid conflict, wouldn't it make sense for him to try to leave?  I suspect that he has a larger role to play, one that he doesn't realize yet, but one that his Intent is driving him towards.

*edit for spelling*

Edited October 21, 2020 by Malim
Spelling

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

This is a very interesting question, we know that Warbreaker is a necessary prequel to the events of the Stormlight Archives, and I always kind of assumed that it was because Nightblood was going to be a major factor in the denouement of the war against Odium.

But, more interesting is the thought that maybe the necessity of Warbreaker preceding SLA is that Vasher needs to be on Roshar to fulfill his Divine Intent.

We know that Endowment's symbolic number is 5, the tears of edgli is a 5 petaled flower, there were 5 Scholars, and more interestingly that Austrism, the theological teachings of the first Returned Vo, had 5 Visions promoting the virtues of patience, humility, sacrifice, selflessness, and understanding. 

The two known instances of Returned giving away their Divine breaths and fulfilling their Divine Intents that we know about are (Warbreaker spoilers)

Spoiler

Calmseer who Returned in order to heal her own daughter with her Divine Breath, and Lightsong who returned to Stop the war with Idris.

Calmseer lived a life of sacrifice, catching a fatal disease while caring for a sick family. Her return was a payment for that sacrifice because she was able to save her daughter through a similar sacrifice.

Lightsong died through a selfless act, saving a girl who otherwise would have drowned. His return was to save Hallendren and Idris from a bloody war once again through an act that was selfless.

There is a pattern in the known cases, namely that the Returned Intents seem to map to the virtues of the 5 Visions, and I think the name that the Cult of the Returned gave Vasher is a big hint as to what the Divine Intent he Returned to fulfill was, Warbreaker the Peaceful. With his nature being that of a Scholar, the Vision (or virtue) that is driving his Intent is likely to be understanding, and the application of that Intent will be using his understanding to stop the war on Roshar.

The specifics of how this would play out are just speculation, but one of the main attributes of a gifted Divine breath is its ability to heal. One possible scenario would be that he gives his divine breath to Kaladin during the contest of Champions after it looks like Kaladin has been mortally wounded. That seems a bit mundane, but I really like the idea of Vasher's purpose for returning being the ending of the cycle of Desolations on Roshar.

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[NightbloodforPM]

What about using it to heal the sibling? The fused described it basically as a deadeye. Could be something to use it on, but that makes me sad as it would likely he when the fused attack the tower in the near future and I like vasher too much!

[+Bliev]

8 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

There is a pattern in the known cases, namely that the Returned Intents seem to map to the virtues of the 5 Visions, and I think the name that the Cult of the Returned gave Vasher is a big hint as to what the Divine Intent he Returned to fulfill was, Warbreaker the Peaceful. With his nature being that of a Scholar, the Vision (or virtue) that is driving his Intent is likely to be understanding, and the application of that Intent will be using his understanding to stop the war on Roshar.

The specifics of how this would play out are just speculation, but one of the main attributes of a gifted Divine breath is its ability to heal. One possible scenario would be that he gives his divine breath to Kaladin during the contest of Champions after it looks like Kaladin has been mortally wounded. That seems a bit mundane, but I really like the idea of Vasher's purpose for returning being the ending of the cycle of Desolations on Roshar.

 

I really like your linkages here. And I'd be okay if Vasher's intent was to heal Kaladin or another Radiant in a critical moment using his divine breath. I think there's definitely a reason that Brandon has said what he said in this chapter about Vasher's mentality, and about "losing his memory" and how he feels about it. I think the understanding could be Roshar-related in this moment, but also could have a larger Cosmere impact, particularly if it serves to bring the players on Roshar further into the full-Cosmere battles that I predict will be the focus of the Back 5, beyond Roshar alone. 

@Malim I agree that Vasher/Nightblood are "trump cards" from Endowment, similar to how it seems Cultivation is arming many possible options for her cause. Both of them seem to have better future sight than some other shards, which is interesting. I wonder if they see the future with more certainty, or, similar to Renarin's glass visions, they just see more possible futures and so can plan better? It would be an interesting WOB.

[spaidapig]

6 hours ago, NightbloodforPM said:

What about using it to heal the sibling? The fused described it basically as a deadeye. Could be something to use it on, but that makes me sad as it would likely he when the fused attack the tower in the near future and I like vasher too much!

I think it is really unlikely, that Vasher will do something great with his Divine Breath, at least in the First Era. That's because Brandon wants his books to be able to stand alone, they have to be understood by those, who haven't read all the cosmere. Awakening is ok, because everyone who didn't read Warbreaker understand that he does something different than Surgebinding, but it isn't essential to know, what it is exactly.

BUT, using his Divine Breath for healing someone mortally wounded makes a HUGE difference. Giving up his life has to be something important, so when/if he will do, it has to be a gamechanger. And Brandon wouldn't use a foreign magic as a core fragment in his book. At least not until Mistborn Era 4.

 

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, spaidapig said:

I think it is really unlikely, that Vasher will do something great with his Divine Breath, at least in the First Era. That's because Brandon wants his books to be able to stand alone, they have to be understood by those, who haven't read all the cosmere. Awakening is ok, because everyone who didn't read Warbreaker understand that he does something different than Surgebinding, but it isn't essential to know, what it is exactly.

BUT, using his Divine Breath for healing someone mortally wounded makes a HUGE difference. Giving up his life has to be something important, so when/if he will do, it has to be a gamechanger. And Brandon wouldn't use a foreign magic as a core fragment in his book. At least not until Mistborn Era 4.

 

I actually agree with this. I think it's unlikely that he would use that Breath in this set of books, and it squares with his Reddit annotations that he's trying to make Vasher kind of "weird guy does weird things" but not that you have to understand what he's doing to understand the plot. I think there'd need to be more specific overlap for that to be a major plot point, and Brandon seems like he's not willing to do that direct crossover yet.

[Subvisual Haze]

I think he's already completed the role Endowment originally intended.  Traveling to Roshar early on, researching shard blades, traveling back to Nalthis, participating in the creation of Nightblood, killing his lover to prevent further Nightbloods from being created, and finally bringing Nightblood to Roshar.  Nightblood is a rather permanent solution for the Fused problem, and appeared on Roshar at just the moment when the previous Oathpact solution was finally collapsing.

He might possibly have a further role to play, but for now he seems completely checked out.

[Aon Tia]

On 20/10/2020 at 11:12 PM, dgreene196 said:

This is something I've been thinking about for the past week, and I've got no ideas to which I'm strongly committed.

Anyone have any good thoughts on Zahel/Vasher's Intent?  Could it be as simple as he's drawn to conflict to try to end it?  I'm sure lots of folks have much better thoughts, which I would appreciate.

It is a very interesting question. I have also pondered over this ever since last weeks chapter with kaladin. 
It really is a wonder that Zahel having achieved so much already 

Please do not read this if you have only read Stormlight Archive: 

Spoiler

In nalthis, saving cosmere from having multiple nightbloods by killing his wife, creating Kallads phantoms and stopping the war, again stopping the war at the end of warbreaker, etc
 

anyone of those things could have been why he was created! But if he had achieved it, then he would have given up his divine breath and he would have died. 
 

What else is he supposed to do? What was the intent behind him? what is his endgame?

Will he ever give up his divine breath to save someone? Would it even work the same way outside Nalthis? Not many of the major players at Roshar would need his help healing! 
 
And what is up with that rock? It is clearly pre-shattering. Is it from yolen? 

[NightbloodforPM]

7 hours ago, spaidapig said:

I think it is really unlikely, that Vasher will do something great with his Divine Breath, at least in the First Era. That's because Brandon wants his books to be able to stand alone, they have to be understood by those, who haven't read all the cosmere. Awakening is ok, because everyone who didn't read Warbreaker understand that he does something different than Surgebinding, but it isn't essential to know, what it is exactly.

BUT, using his Divine Breath for healing someone mortally wounded makes a HUGE difference. Giving up his life has to be something important, so when/if he will do, it has to be a gamechanger. And Brandon wouldn't use a foreign magic as a core fragment in his book. At least not until Mistborn Era 4.

 

I can't argue with this!

Also, I wonder if it's possible that vasher was originally from roshar, worldhopped to nalthis where he died doing something worthy from endowments pov who then gave him a divine breath. Does he have to be from nalthis for that to occur? 

[Lemiltock]

31 minutes ago, NightbloodforPM said:

I can't argue with this!

Also, I wonder if it's possible that vasher was originally from roshar, worldhopped to nalthis where he died doing something worthy from endowments pov who then gave him a divine breath. Does he have to be from nalthis for that to occur? 

Heres a WOB confirming hes from nalthis

Quote

BlackYeti

In Words of Radiance, we have Vasher showing up... One of his aliases on Nalthis is Kalad, which is very similar to the name of one of the Heralds on Roshar. So I was wondering how far back this connection between him and Roshar goes.

Brandon Sanderson

It goes pretty far back, in fact when I wrote Way of Kings, the 2002 version; he was a main character and was Kaladin's swordmaster. I wrote Warbreaker to jump back and write out his backstory, Vasher's. So to me Warbreaker actually came after Way of Kings. But the connection goes back pretty far, further than you would first guess.

BlackYeti

Did he actually come from Nalthis and not Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to actually answer that one-- Well I can answer that: yes he does come from Nalthis. It's pretty obvious that the way that the Breath's working, the reason he moved is because it's easier to get Stormlight than Breaths, and Stormlight can fuel being a Returned like him. And so yes, he was born on Nalthis. Becoming Returned without being born on Nalthis would be really hard.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

[spaidapig]

 

37 minutes ago, NightbloodforPM said:

I can't argue with this!

Also, I wonder if it's possible that vasher was originally from roshar, worldhopped to nalthis where he died doing something worthy from endowments pov who then gave him a divine breath. Does he have to be from nalthis for that to occur? 

 

5 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Heres a WOB confirming hes from nalthis

 

While this is totally true there is a different WoB saying, that even a non Nalthian could Return. So @NightbloodforPM's question was really good. But yes, Vasher is a native Nalthian.

 

Quote

OrangeJedi

Could a non-native be able to be Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is possible.

JoyBlu

So someone who was born without a Breath and came to Nalthis could possibly be Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Possibly could be Returned. Yes. That's not very likely.

JoyBlu

So they could get a Divine Breath, even though never...

Brandon Sanderson

They could be given a Divine Breath, yes.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

[Lemiltock]

@spaidapig I did missread that question XD thanks for the extra WOB

Edited October 21, 2020 by Lemiltock
Link the @

[NightbloodforPM]

Thanks for clarifying that for me guys!

[Kfish]

Hi all, just registered. 

 

Reread warbreaker and I was thinking about this very topic right at the end so much it prompted me to register! I, too, think he is Endowment's play on Roshar - well him, Nightblood, and Vivenna who are all there. Her future sight seems to be incredibly powerful compared to what we've seen so far in the cosmere with one Mistborn related possible exception and maybe cultivation who we just haven't seen much of yet.

 

However, I find one thing really odd with Zahel/Vasher on Roshar. He is serving as a swordmaster. That wasn't what he was best at. He was always a researcher who understands the magic system of Nalthis better than arguably anyone save Shashara. What if his role isn't as a sword master, combatant, or even a returned but as a researcher. We have a large focus on research with Navani and Jasnah so it would make sense if somehow he got drawn into that and helped them uncover something that changes the tides.

[nbozb]

9 hours ago, Kfish said:

However, I find one thig really odd with Zahel/Vasher on Roshar. He is serving as a swordmaster. That wasn't what he was best at. He was always a researcher who understands the magic system of Nalthis better than arguably anyone save Shashara. What if his role isn't as a sword master, combatant, or even a returned but as a researcher. We have a large focus on research with Navani and Jasnah so it would make sense if somehow he got drawn into that and helped them uncover something that changes the tides.

There is a WOB that says this.

Quote

Will we see more fights like these [Kaladin vs Zahel] in the future of the cosmere to settle all the debates? Would have loved to see full Surgebinder vs Returned Awakener.

Also can you say who would win if Zahel and Kal went all out?

I assume Kal couldn't really lash someone with a lot of Breath. But my money is on the Windrunner.

Brandon Sanderson

Being able to fly is a huge tactical advantage in most fights, so I'd agree with you to an extent. But Vasher could probably beat anyone alive in a fair swordfight.

Of course, he's a researcher. He's also pretty great at sword fighting. I don't really think that he's going to help out Navani and Jasnah, he seems to want to stay away from that whole mess. Besides, he's not really much of a collaborator now. 

[Kfish]

On 10/25/2020 at 3:35 PM, nbozb said:

There is a WOB that says this.

Of course, he's a researcher. He's also pretty great at sword fighting. I don't really think that he's going to help out Navani and Jasnah, he seems to want to stay away from that whole mess. Besides, he's not really much of a collaborator now. 

 Very interesting! I wonder if he has improved a lot since Warbreaker then since they emphasized pretty heavily that Vasher was - at best - third best swordsman there. I guess I figured Roshar would have a few just as good as Denth and Arsteel. 

 

Despite that, I still think a discovery will be what he does. It fits who he is too much to ignore it - even if its not a collab. 

[Lemiltock]

1 hour ago, Kfish said:

 Very interesting! I wonder if he has improved a lot since Warbreaker then since they emphasized pretty heavily that Vasher was - at best - third best swordsman there. I guess I figured Roshar would have a few just as good as Denth and Arsteel. 

 

Despite that, I still think a discovery will be what he does. It fits who he is too much to ignore it - even if its not a collab. 

He was third best against inhumanly good swordmen, not just he ranked third. Even then Denth waited until Vasher was exaughsted before fighting him, sure some of this was due to Breath and Nightblood, but Denth was geniuinly afraid Vasher could beat him in a fair fight even if he confidently said otherwise.

Also this WoB expands on why Vasher is an incredible swordsman. (I posted the wrong WoB before.)

Quote

Questioner

How would Adolin fare against the greats like Lan, Rand, Galad, and how would Kaladin and his spear fare against Mat?

Brandon Sanderson

It’s really hard to say this, because what are different characters’ skill levels and things? For instance, I generally count Lan as the strongest and the best. My [Wheel of Time] books that I wrote show that. I think Lan would beat Adolin. You just can’t replace the twenty years of intense practice that Lan has, and the wisdom, no matter how talented of a rookie you are -- even though Adolin is not a rookie. I think Lan could go toe-to-toe with anyone non-immortal in the cosmere, because a lot of the cosmere people have an advantage, right? Taln has spent 4,000 years practicing with weapons. Granted, he spent a bunch of that time being tortured as well, but you know. He has many lifetimes behind him, and has been able to be killed making mistakes and never make those mistakes again. That is a leg up on someone like Lan or like Adolin that is just of a supernatural level. And so, while I think Lan would beat any swordsman in a fair fight from the Cosmere, I would count anyone who has a greatly expanded lifespan as an unfair fight. Like, I don’t think Lan would be able to stand against the better duelists among the Heralds or even against Vasher. Vasher’s got multiple lifetimes of practicing with the sword.

How would Kaladin do against Mat? It depends, Mat’s luck is a very big wildcard, and how is the luck on Mat’s side and how is karma working in Mat’s favor or against him in that given moment? That’s part of what makes Mat fun. So Kaladin is a soldier, again, not a duelist. Kaladin is really good with a spear, but his training is in war, his training is to be a battlefield captain. What even is Mat? Mat has been trained by fate itself with weapons, which is just really hard to play. Let’s call that a tie, edge probably to Kaladin.

Lan beats Adolin or basically any duelist but you put him up against the Heralds and he has a much harder time.

YouTube Livestream 16 (Aug. 20, 2020)

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Lemiltock
Posted wrong WoB

[Aspiring Writer]

On 10/20/2020 at 10:42 AM, dgreene196 said:

This is something I've been thinking about for the past week, and I've got no ideas to which I'm strongly committed.

Anyone have any good thoughts on Zahel/Vasher's Intent?  Could it be as simple as he's drawn to conflict to try to end it?  I'm sure lots of folks have much better thoughts, which I would appreciate.

While not a main reason, part of why he is there is because is easier for him to get access to investiture, this being stormlight rather than breath, to keep himself alive. Edit: Crap, I didn't realize this was in the spoiler thread, I just clicked on it when looking at someone's activity. ABORT ABORT!

Edited October 27, 2020 by Aspiring Writer