Sad Kal

[I Am A Fish he/him]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

Yes, I think that's important to point out and part of why I think it's much easier to have a character with depression vs. other kinds of mental illnesses.  With depression, while it's always there, if it's well managed you can have long periods of "good" times where the depression is not as much in the foreground.  Doesn't mean it's gone, just that you're able to handle it.  I'm not sure this is the case with other mental health issues, though I'm not expert.  I think we've seen Kaladin doing well with his depression in WoR and early OB, but we've seen him on a downward slope now since early-mid OB.  It's time for him to turn it around and I think we will see that happen in RoW.

Hopefully, 

Otherwise I may go around with a permanent frown on my face.

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

Just wanted to say that this thread is so wonderful & is an example of the good things that happen here on the Shard: people being themselves, being honest, being vulnerable to the extent they're comfortable with, and everyone learning and caring for others.

OK, OK, enough drippy sentimentalism from the old lady. ;-)

We know from the Syl interlude that

Spoiler

...Kaladin starts serving as a surgeon/medic again.

I keep remembering how Tien made him feel better, and it makes me think that he might have a future role as mentor/big brother not only to Oroden but also to Gavinor. Those of you who deal with depression, would that make any sense at all? I can imagine how too much responsibility would be yet another crushing weight, but helping children develop could also be a joyful and hopeful thing - help Kal get outside himself. But then he'd also be reminded of Elhokar, every time he looked at his son. I dunno - it's not even a theory, just a wild idea, & maybe a bad one? If so, apologies for being insensitive.

[Xerun]

I think my biggest issue with it is that it’s so frequent and that it’s being compounded by the one chapter a week. I love the way Kaladin is written it’s very realistic and exactly what he would be going through. 
 

On the other hand, there have been about 4 chapters so far dedicated to Kaladin’s depression with no major change. And that can be tough to read when it’s the only chapter you get for a whole week. There isn’t any Cosmere changing revelations or huge intrigue to fuel discussion. I think once the book is out these chapters will seem nothing short of amazing because you can just immediately go to the next one. 
 

But currently it can get repetitive. Especially coming off the back of Shallan, Venli and Navani cliffhangers. 
 

On the plus side, if I’ve done my calculations correctly we have 7 chapters remaining and each character in theory should get a close to their Part 1 story with their Part 2 setup cliffhanger to fuel heaps of discussion. So I’m expecting 4 chapters dedicated to each of the characters for that coming in the next month

[Master Silver]

So even though, this was definitely a low point with Kaladin, I think he displayed with Rock in this chapter ultimately what he needs to do to swear the fourth ideal. In fact part of me, thought he was going to hung Rock and speak the fourth ideal as Rock was leaving. Then still go join the surgeons and continue to heal. A long road ahead for Kaladin. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 9/12/2020 at 5:33 PM, Harbour said:

I see OP's point. Depression is the thing that cant just gone, but at the same time its fiction fantasy story. It supposed to entertain and to create great characters to enjoy reading about.

In case of Kaladin the realism of his mental health at some point started to overwhelm his character. While its still kind of interesting to read about his struggles with depression, i find his WoR and partly OB versions way more enjoyable to read about, when he had stuff to do and struggle with morality problems, not mental health one.

His arc kinda feels like the fight against his own shadow. It cant just end. It wont end. And to read about this sucks. Because i love Kaladin whenever he broods because something actually pissed him off, not because of mental health problems.

I love his character. I will follow him for sure. I see why some people like how Brandon realistically depicted him and why some people like it because they can relate to him.

I also see why some people want Brandon to tone down Kaladin's depression for sake of more enjoyable character progression. Love and care of close people help with depression. Kaladin has plenty of it. Let him embrace it.

And, weirdly, I liked him better here, where he’s admitting that he’s unhappy for no reason. I did not like it when he blamed his unhappiness on his situation, because I kept going ‘oh, grow up. I know people who have gone through worse and come out better than you.’ (I know quite a few Holocaust survivors.) I really hate it when people do that.

I’m the person who turned to my father, while my daughter was possibly dying on a trauma table and said, “We will make something good of this.” And now wants to work in Child Life because of that experience. (My daughter lived, btw. But we all thought she was going to die for a week.) It drove me absolutely nuts that Kaladin kept harping on everything wrong in his life instead of moving forward, because it’s the exact opposite of the way I think. 
 

But admitting he’s miserable because of something in himself? Not external factors? That’s a level of honesty we haven’t really seen from him. It’s an important acknowledgment, because Kal is someone who lies to himself quite a lot. So now...  NOW I can empathize with him. 
 

Before he was just a whiny kid who needed to grow up. Now it feels like he finally IS. I liked him better here than I have since WoR.

[Rai she/her]

I agree with being happy that Kaladin can admit the truth of what is happening to him and the reality of his illness, but to call him "a whiny kid" for justifiably complaining about his situation is certainly... A Take, when that situation included going to war as a child, being enslaved, then sent to die in bridge runs because of the pettiness and greed of lighteyes, all while watching other darkeyes die around him.

Why the heck should he not blame his unhappiness on his situation? He went through hell, of course he was going to come out with issues, and there was rightfully something and someone to blame and point fingers at. As well, it isn't fair to compare survivors to each other, because people will react differently, and... honestly, it isn't the Trauma Olympics. I get this kind of thing being frustrating if you're a different person, but not everyone can just move on or be expected to. WoR was him realistically reacting to and carrying the baggage of everything that's happened to him - he was still a kid at that point, and acted like one. He also showed amazing growth in that book, and I really don't think most people in his shoes would have reacted half as well. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, Rai said:

I agree with being happy that Kaladin can admit the truth of what is happening to him and the reality of his illness, but to call him "a whiny kid" for justifiably complaining about his situation is certainly... A Take, when that situation included going to war as a child, being enslaved, then sent to die in bridge runs because of the pettiness and greed of lighteyes, all while watching other darkeyes die around him.

Why the heck should he not blame his unhappiness on his situation? He went through hell, of course he was going to come out with issues, and there was rightfully something and someone to blame and point fingers at. As well, it isn't fair to compare survivors to each other, because people will react differently, and... honestly, it isn't the Trauma Olympics. I get this kind of thing being frustrating if you're a different person, but not everyone can just move on or be expected to. WoR was him realistically reacting to and carrying the baggage of everything that's happened to him - he was still a kid at that point, and acted like one. He also showed amazing growth in that book, and I really don't think most people in his shoes would have reacted half as well. 

The problem is that I know people who went through worse than he did - and they reacted better. Then again, the mindset needed to survive 2000 years of persecution isn’t the typical one. I don’t think, for example, Kaladin would be able to hold his wedding, followed by six days of parties, if either of his parents died the morning of. But that’s exactly what my community does - and I know of cases where it’s happened. I’ve been to some of those weddings! (And then people wonder why we’re still holding weddings...)

 

So yes, once Kal’s life was better in WoR, I wanted him to stop thinking about all the bad things that happened to him all the time. How can you move forward if you keep looking back? Sure, the past hurts. But stop harping on it! Mourn your brother on the anniversary of his death, not every day! Do you really think that’s what he’d want? Of course not! Just... deal and move on.

 

For a good chunk of WoR, Kal was miserable not because of any particular event, but because he was depressed. But he wasn’t acknowledging that, and I didn’t know he was,  and it came across as very whiny to me. In OB I knew, but I didn’t much enjoy it. I also found it whiny because I was going through my own trauma (see: daughter almost dying) and reacting in a completely different way. I think that’s when Mistborn became so dear to me though, as there I can find characters who work through things the same way as me - by surviving and moving forward.

 

I liked Kaladin just fine in WoK. I found his insistence on replaying his trauma after annoying. I have trouble understanding the concept of stopping mentally. If my family had done that, we wouldn’t exist. And I think, historically, that need to keep pushing forward was better understood. If everyone ‘stopped’ the way Kal does every time a child died young, humanity would have died out long ago.

 

So general opinion: I don’t like characters who continually harp on their trauma in the way Kal did - and I don’t much care for RL people who do either. I like characters who take their traumas and turn it into strength. I like characters who acknowledge how their traumas shape them, without overly dwelling on them. I like characters who can keep moving forward and, failing that, characters where the narrative is at least honest about why they can’t.

 

Now the narrative is being honest about Kaladin’s depression, and he has clearly developed a trauma disorder. And, for the first time since WoK, it feels like he’s finally going to move forward. No, I don’t think he really moved forward much in WoR and OB. He’s never moved on from his trauma. We spent two books with him stuck in place, unable to move forward while he, and the narrative, placed the blame on external, as opposed to internal, factors. You can’t help someone who won’t admit what’s wrong, even if that someone is yourself. Now that Kal is being honest, he can move forward.

 

It makes a nice parallel to Shallan, actually, as she’s both admitting (through Veil and Radiant) and denying (through ‘Shallan’) her problem. Kaladin acknowledges his trauma, but it took until now for him to admit that it wasn’t the situations in and of themselves that were causing his continuing misery and begin the path to recovery. Shallan acknowledges that her refusal to confront and deal with her trauma is causing her problems, but refuses to face what those traumas are, exacerbating her problems. Meanwhile, Dalinar faced his trauma and owned it and moved forward, though it took some divine intervention to do it. Let’s hope the other two can manage a more mundane version. Well, Kal anyway.
 

Kaladin is not a child soldier. He was 22 (in our years) in WoKs and 17 (by our count, if I’m recalling correctly) when he joined the army. Until recently 14 to 16 was considered adulthood for most of the world. It still IS in large portions of the world. Lafayette was 17, for example, same as Kal. John Quincy was clerking in Russia, alone, at 14. A little earlier, and you’ll find younger. There were 16 year olds fighting in WW2; many lied and claimed they were 18. 
 

And Adolin is just as much of a child soldier - more so, because Adolin started younger. So is Dalinar. So are a whole lot of Alethi, particularly the lighteyes. So were Vin and Spook in Mistborn, for that matter. So are most soldiers throughout human history. I think they’d all be offended at being considered child soldiers. They just have a different concept of adulthood. Adolescence is really a very new idea, and did not exist for most of history. I would not consider someone a child soldier unless they are considered a child by the standards of their society.

 

You do realize that noble Alethi kids are taught to fight from when they’re, like, six, right? Like the RL noble children often were? Unless you’re considering every other lighteyes a child soldier (with considerably more merit) then Kal certainly doesn’t count. And if you do consider them all child soldiers, well, then Kaladin doesn’t really have any more cause to complain than any other...

[Greywatch she/her]

I agree with there being no such thing as the Oppression Olympics. People can feel whatever they want about their circumstances; there's always someone who's been through worse. If that was the case, then nobody should ever have depression, and it should all be dumped on the one person we've all decided is the one who actually has it the worst of all humanity. It just doesn't work like that.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Yes, and I like him better now that he’s acknowledging the depression, instead of blaming it on external factors.

[EggArdent she/her]

On 9/23/2020 at 2:21 PM, Iarwainiel said:

Those of you who deal with depression, would that make any sense at all? I can imagine how too much responsibility would be yet another crushing weight, but helping children develop could also be a joyful and hopeful thing - help Kal get outside himself. But then he'd also be reminded of Elhokar, every time he looked at his son. I dunno - it's not even a theory, just a wild idea, & maybe a bad one? If so, apologies for being insensitive.

one of the big ways I cope with my depression is trying to help people, (if ?I cant make myself feel better maybe I can make somebody else feel good) so I can totally see kaladin doing this especially because in both Oroden, and Gavinor he sees someone he failed to protect.