Tanavast

[paperstones he/him]

After rereading Syl's Interlude I'm starting to get the feeling that Tanavast was the first Bondsmith. That one of his powers as the Shard of Honor was a Bondsmith. Syl said, 

Quote

“Your abilities are what made the original Oathpact,” she said. “And they existed—and were named—long before the Knights Radiant were founded. A Bondsmith connected the Heralds to Braize, made them immortal, and locked our enemies away. A Bondsmith bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better. You Connect things, Dalinar. Realms. Ideas. People.”

She never once mentioned Ishar. She referred to it as "A Bondsmith." If it was Ishar, who I take it was the first human Bondsmith, at some point in that paragraph she would've referred to him as the one who did it. I take that to mean Tanavast, the Vessel of Honor, was the first Bondsmith who did all of the above. If it wasn't Ishar that did it the only other option would've been Tanavast. 

 

[Lightspine]

2 hours ago, paperstones said:

She never once mentioned Ishar. She referred to it as "A Bondsmith." If it was Ishar, who I take it was the first human Bondsmith, at some point in that paragraph she would've referred to him as the one who did it. I take that to mean Tanavast, the Vessel of Honor, was the first Bondsmith who did all of the above. If it wasn't Ishar that did it the only other option would've been Tanavast. 

While I'm not convinced that the omission of Ishar's name means that he isn't a Bondsmith that Syl is referring to, I really like the idea that Tanavast was the original Bondsmith!

I think that some of the times Syl says "a Bondsmith" might refer to Ishar, and some other times to Tanavast. Connecting the Heralds to Braize, giving them immortality, locking away the Fused sounds like Tanavast. Creating/discovering the Nahel bond sounds like Ishar.

[ftl]

That doesn't seem to fit to me. Tanavast held the Shard of Honor - he's the source of all these abilities, and holding a Shard would give him much *greater* power than a mere Bondsmith.

[spaidapig he/him]

4 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Connecting the Heralds to Braize, giving them immortality, locking away the Fused sounds like Tanavast. Creating/discovering the Nahel bond sounds like Ishar.

But didn't Ishar create the Oathpact?

In the Coppermind he is even described as having had powers before he became a Herald.

Quote

His particular powerset was seemingly tied to the cosmere-wide phenomenon of Connection. He is often described as the founder of the Oathpact

 

 

4 hours ago, Lightspine said:

locking away the Fused sounds like Tanavast

Honor and Cultivation locked away Odium, so it kind of seems logical, that Tanavast would help in locking away the Fused too. But I believe he just granted Ishar and the Heralds the power to battle and bind theis enemy.

 

[paperstones he/him]

5 hours ago, ftl said:

That doesn't seem to fit to me. Tanavast held the Shard of Honor - he's the source of all these abilities, and holding a Shard would give him much *greater* power than a mere Bondsmith.

That is kinda my point. Of course he was greater than just a Bondsmith. This is just one part of what he could do as a Shard that was emulated after. 

I’m also curious if Ishar could’ve been an Avatar of Honor. Granted I have read Whitesand and don’t know much about how Avatars work but there has to be something more than a mere human who became invested with the local investiture bound the gods. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

2 hours ago, paperstones said:

I’m also curious if Ishar could’ve been an Avatar of Honor. Granted I have read Whitesand and don’t know much about how Avatars work but there has to be something more than a mere human who became invested with the local investiture bound the gods. 

Alas not. He was a human born on Ashyn prior to the exodus of human to Roshar.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ishar

[spaidapig he/him]

I'm not a fan of the theory, but he could have been avatarized after their arrival on Roshar, couldn't he?

[paperstones he/him]

1 hour ago, Nathrangking said:

Alas not. He was a human born on Ashyn prior to the exodus of human to Roshar.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ishar

Completely aware of this. 

1 hour ago, spaidapig said:

I'm not a fan of the theory, but he could have been avatarized after their arrival on Roshar, couldn't he?

That is along the lines of what I was thinking. 

[Rainier]

15 hours ago, paperstones said:

A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better.

One thing you're forgetting: the Knights did not exist when the Oathpact was created. It was through the Desolations that humans eventually discovered that they could mimic what the Heralds were doing, and everything about the Knights is done in imitation of the Heralds. We get Nale explaining this, how he's the only Herald who is also a Knight Radiant of his order. We also get Taln calling Radiants Ishar's Knights.

So I suppose what you're arguing is that this was the case for nine of the orders, but not for Bondsmiths. That Bondsmiths were somehow innate or inherent to Honor, which is what allowed for the Oathpact in the first place.

Something like Honor > Innate/Inherent Bondsmith (Tanavast) > Heralds > Knights would do it.

[paperstones he/him]

23 minutes ago, Rainier said:

One thing you're forgetting: the Knights did not exist when the Oathpact was created. It was through the Desolations that humans eventually discovered that they could mimic what the Heralds were doing, and everything about the Knights is done in imitation of the Heralds. We get Nale explaining this, how he's the only Herald who is also a Knight Radiant of his order. We also get Taln calling Radiants Ishar's Knights.

So I suppose what you're arguing is that this was the case for nine of the orders, but not for Bondsmiths. That Bondsmiths were somehow innate or inherent to Honor, which is what allowed for the Oathpact in the first place.

Something like Honor > Innate/Inherent Bondsmith (Tanavast) > Heralds > Knights would do it.

I understand the KR came after. The quote below is how I see it. Tanavasat, as Honor, was the original Bondsmith. Humans referred to what he did as a Bondsmith. He then creates the Heralds AFTER he helps move them to Roshar. Either that or Ishar became Honors Avatar and did all that with part of Honors power. 

15 hours ago, paperstones said:

A Bondsmith connected the Heralds to Braize, made them immortal, and locked our enemies away. A Bondsmith bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world.

 

[Subvisual Haze]

Makes sense, it seems "Bondsmith" can refer either to members of the Radiant order, or anyone who utilizes the same general set of powers.  We also had that Honorspren captain (Notum?) seeming to refer to the Stormfather when he asked "Which of the three [Bondsmiths]?"