Cultivation Helped Kill Honor

[+ILuvHats he/him]

I've been doing a reread of Stormlight, so of course I've been revisiting a lot of the ideas and theories that followed Oathbringer. In particular, I've been thinking about Odium claiming "We killed you" after Dalinar kind of sort of ascended. I know there's been a ton of speculation about it, and the idea in the title is not completely original. But recently, I've become convinced that it's true; Cultivation aided Odium in shattering Honor, killing Tanavast. Hopefully, parts of my reasoning are original, but I'm not well read enough on the forums to be sure.

Here's my thought process. It boils down to Occam's Razor. I've seen theories about Dalinar resurrecting Adonalsium, or bringing him back together, and when he says "we," Odium is referring to the sixteen who shattered Adonalsium. I've also seen ideas that Dalinar is only bringing together the remnants of Honor, and Odium is referring to Autonomy since she/they were implied to have possibly helped him shatter Devotion and Dominion via a WoB. But these theories complicate things, bringing in beings and deep cosmere lore that casual readers have no prior knowledge of. To them, such a theory coming to fruition might feel like a sort of deus ex machina because it's so out of their purview. While Stormlight will definitely be touching on the wider cosmere more than previous series, I find it hard to believe Brandon will dive that deep into it. More importantly, we have the famous WoB stating there are only three Shards on Roshar. Simplicity demands that Dalinar is reassembling Honor's remnants, possibly reinterpreting the "intent" of the shard. That leaves only two beings with the power necessary to kill Honor in the first place; Odium and Cultivation. 

But, there is a lot of backlash and opposition to the theory that Cultivation backstabbed Honor, mainly because she and him (Tanavast) were romantically involved. What could drive her to such treachery, to betray one she loved? Well, how about a world that is completely antithetical to the Shard she carries. Because that was what Roshar became during the cycle of Desolations. Progress and evolution did not, could not occur among either human society nor Singer society during these wars. Civilization itself became stagnant on both sides, even regressed. Imagine how much pain it must have caused Cultivation as the world she had Invested in became in her eyes abhorrent, repulsive. And this lasted thousands of years, during which time the shard's intent slowly began to overcome the vessel's personality. Such tension likely accelerated the process, causing Cultivation become more and more a force than an individual, until she became much like Ruin was at the end; a slave to the shard's intent. After trying alongside Honor to defeat Odium for so long, it must have become apparent it was futile, and he could not be defeated. That left only one route to escape a stagnant, decaying world, and that was to shatter Honor. 

I will admit that it seems odd that Honor died not in the midst of the Desolations, but rather after the "final" one, during a long stretch of relative peace when society could actually grow. But even if all but one of the Heralds had betrayed the Oathpact, would the cycle of Desolations ever end if Honor still headed the human resistance? I doubt it, and think it likely the world have eventually fallen to constant war yet again. I believe that Cultivation backstabbed Honor in order to force a final confrontation with Odium. It was a gamble to lead to greater cultivation. One last gambit. Risk total annihilation for an opportunity to achieve a world that grows. 

So those are my thoughts. Let me know what you think.

[Weltall]

Cultivation helped Honor in the fight against Odium, which is pretty much the opposite of helping kill him:

Quote

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015)

 

[Frustration he/him]

Also Wyndle says that Cultivation stopped caring about Humans after Honors death. Seems like grief to me.

[psc92]

The death of Honor is one of the most significant mysteries that doesn't get talked about enough. Like, something happened to allow Odium to kill him. He didn't just fall asleep or step on a lego one day. How does a Shard who existed in the same system as Odium for Millennia suddenly get killed, seemingly at random? To me it just doesn't make sense.

Maybe Cultivation advised Honor to allow himself to be killed by Odium because she saw that it would allow them to win in the long run, and thus it would be the 'honorable' thing to do? But this doesn't explain the "We killed you" line because in this scenario Odium doesn't know that Cultivation is involved.

Either way I think the "We killed you" line is referring to Honor and it implies that multiple parties were involved, the question is: Who else? Maybe Cultivation helped Odium kill Honor, but if I was Odium in that scenario I would be highly, highly suspicious.

[Weltall]

4 hours ago, psc92 said:

How does a Shard who existed in the same system as Odium for Millennia suddenly get killed, seemingly at random? To me it just doesn't make sense.

First off, it wasn't at all a sudden thing but took place over a span of time. Second, we have this WoB (slightly edited to remove a Mistborn spoiler):

Quote

ericth

What is Odium's edge. [REMOVED] Rayse has downed 3 shards and survived. Was it skill, ability, numbers or possibly un-dispersed power?

Brandon Sanderson

Some combination of the above.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

We know Odium doesn't like to Invest any more of his power than he has to, and he doesn't leave any behind once he's finished. Meanwhile Honor and Cultivation were settled into Roshar and Invested in it, so Odium had an initial advantage in power over either one individually, and by the point that he went after Honor and Cultivation he'd had some practice at killing other Shards. We know he's also taken on multiple Shards before and won, so the fact that he was fighting two of them on Roshar doesn't necessarily mean he had to have one of them helping him against the other.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Weltall

[psc92]

Quote

First off, it wasn't at all a sudden thing but took place over a span of time. Second, we have this WoB (slightly edited to remove a Mistborn spoiler):

As I understand it, the killing blow happened as a sudden event, but it took a long time for Honor to die afterward. Sort of like someone getting shot and then taking several minutes to bleed out.

Quote

We know Odium doesn't like to Invest any more of his power than he has to, and he doesn't leave any behind once he's finished. Meanwhile Honor and Cultivation were settled into Roshar and Invested in it, so Odium had an initial advantage in power over either one individually, and by the point that he went after Honor and Cultivation he'd had some practice at killing other Shards. We know he's also taken on multiple Shards before and won, so the fact that he was fighting two of them on Roshar doesn't necessarily mean he had to have one of them helping him against the other.

I agree that he didn't necessarily need Cultivation's help in killing Honor. The question I am asking is: If Odium is stronger than Honor, then why did he kill Honor exactly when he did? Why not sooner? Why not later? What was the significance of doing it at that exact time? How does "We killed you" fit in, if at all?

Quote

Questioner

Will we ever know the exact place and time Honor's death occurred, and will it be significant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and RAFO.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

Luckily, based on this WOB we will eventually know the exact time of Honor's death, and hopefully more.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

15 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

So those are my thoughts. Let me know what you think.

In one spot on Oathbringer Stromfather talks to Dalinar that he is alive, only because Odium is afraid expose himself to Cultivation. So Cultivation is the reason that Odium didnt splinter Honor as total as Devotion/Dominion/Ambition.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

15 hours ago, Weltall said:

Cultivation helped Honor in the fight against Odium, which is pretty much the opposite of helping kill him:

To be fair, they aren't mutually concept. I figure that Cultivation helped Honor throughout most of the Desolations, and if she eventually helped Odium kill Honor, it was later on when she felt there were no other options.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Also Wyndle says that Cultivation stopped caring about Humans after Honors death. Seems like grief to me.

Mmm, you're right. That circumstantial evidence goes against the theory. I forgot about that comment from Wyndle.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

In one spot on Oathbringer Stromfather talks to Dalinar that he is alive, only because Odium is afraid expose himself to Cultivation. So Cultivation is the reason that Odium didnt splinter Honor as total as Devotion/Dominion/Ambition.

That's a leap of logic in my opinion. The whole issue is muddled. We're still not sure what arrangements and rules governed the situation on Roshar leading to the Desolations. The Oathpact seemed to have bound Odium to the system somehow, but we don't know what that really means. So it's difficult to judge how Honor was killed, or how fully he was shattered. Also, either the existence of spren as small but cohesive units of Honor's investiture, or the fact that the Stormfather was prepared as an heir to Honor could help account for why Honor is seemingly being pulled back together by Dalinar and thus apparently less shattered.

[Dracnor he/him]

My razor tells me that's its much easier to hypothesize this "we" as a royal/divine "we" : in panic, Odium stops playing the role of a loving grandfather and the deeper personnality speaks, the want-to-be god of cosmere.

But yeah, if I'm right then that was a very good 17sharders-trap.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

2 hours ago, Dracnor said:

My razor tells me that's its much easier to hypothesize this "we" as a royal/divine "we" : in panic, Odium stops playing the role of a loving grandfather and the deeper personnality speaks, the want-to-be god of cosmere.

But yeah, if I'm right then that was a very good 17sharders-trap.

Or it could just be "We": Odium + Rayse.

[Jenet]

I like the idea. When discussing questions like this one, you should always be willing to investigate paths that are not so comfortable to consider.

Cultivation is not a cuddling mother, she is like Nature. Hard in her seeking of balance and growth. If she came to the conclusion that someone she loved was becoming more and more altered and perhaps crazy, and that person had allmighty powers, well, there might be a possibility that she would finally help eliminate that power. And she would grief for a long time for him, of course. Both before and after it happened.

We know that Honor was not himself in a period before he died. That could be because he was influenced by the process that finally killed him, or it could be that his sense of honor went into a kind of positive feedback loop after all the desolations and wars. Honor can be a two-edged sword. 

Many terrible, endless family feuds or wars between peoples and countries have been driven by the sense of honor. People felt they had to take revenge and defend their honor. That is the back side of the shard. 

It seems that the singers have a culture that is very much influenced by the positive elements of honor, like their honorable practices in war. I feel we can trace a lot of Cultivation and Honor in them, and sadly a lot of Odium in the human traditions.

But if honor goes crazy, you end up with endless retribution wars. It might be that Cultivation would hate such a thing to happen. And finally agreed to stop the process by shattering Honor. If so, she would have a long term plan to defeat Odium after all and in the end. We have seen that she is a very complex and long time planner.

Of course we don't know if that was actually what Sanderson is going to tell us happened, but the theory is not so far fetched.

[+Child of Hodor]

15 hours ago, Dracnor said:

My razor tells me that's its much easier to hypothesize this "we" as a royal/divine "we" : in panic, Odium stops playing the role of a loving grandfather and the deeper personnality speaks, the want-to-be god of cosmere.

But yeah, if I'm right then that was a very good 17sharders-trap.

12 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Or it could just be "We": Odium + Rayse.

I had the theory this is why he is the "Broken One" the Stormfather mentions. He's not quite right. In his speech pattern he repeats himself and restates the same thing he just said a lot. Like two people talking. On occasion he speaks in the Royal We. It's probably wrong  and just something Brandon gave to Odium to give him a distinct speaking style. 

"I've always been here. Always with you, Dalinar. I've watched you for a long, long time."

"Passion, son. Glorious, wondrous passion. Emotion" Ch. 59 Passion

"There, there. That was a smidge too much, wasn't it?" CH. 59 Passion

"Dalinar, Dalinar" Ch. 109 OB

"There can be, there will be" Ch. 109 OB

"Passion," Odium Said. "There is great Passion here." Ch. 115 OB

"Good, good. Let us begin." Ch. 117 OB

"I've been preparing him for a long, long time." Ch. 117 OB

"No! No. We Killed You! We Killed You!" Ch. 119 OB

"Kill him! Attack him!" Ch. 119 OB

"Good, good. We understand one another" Ch. 122 OB

 

[Trutharchivist he/him]

Actually, I believe one of the fused said something along the lines of "we killed their god" (in one Interlude of Venli in OB, specifically I-7: Envoy, the fused Rine while he speaks to Venli). I thought maybe the fused somehow helped shattering Honor, and the breaking of the oathpact maybe helped them with that. I don't like the theory that Cultivation helped shatter Honor, but like what was stated above: 

12 hours ago, Jenet said:

When discussing questions like this one, you should always be willing to investigate paths that are not so comfortable to consider.

Still, I prefer my idea. I am aware, though, that having mere cognitive shadows helping shatter a shard is a bit far fetched, especially since almost all of their investiture comes from Odium, but it seems to me that from some unknown reason, when a shard attacks another, he has to attack his people too (examples: Odium fighting humans on Roshar, Trell using the Set while fighting harmony), and so it might not be so weird that they have some effect.

[Jenet]

11 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

Actually, I believe one of the fused said something along the lines of "we killed their god" (in one Interlude of Venli in OB, specifically I-7: Envoy, the fused Rine while he speaks to Venli). I thought maybe the fused somehow helped shattering Honor, and the breaking of the oathpact maybe helped them with that. I don't like the theory that Cultivation helped shatter Honor, but like what was stated above: 

Still, I prefer my idea. I am aware, though, that having mere cognitive shadows helping shatter a shard is a bit far fetched, especially since almost all of their investiture comes from Odium, but it seems to me that from some unknown reason, when a shard attacks another, he has to attack his people too (examples: Odium fighting humans on Roshar, Trell using the Set while fighting harmony), and so it might not be so weird that they have some effect.

Good point!

[Useless Soveriegn]

I think this thread is old but I've been think on this subject for a while now and have some thoughts

 

I think Cultivation did indeed kill honor, maybe for his own sake or a compulsion from her shard, let me explain

I assume honor allowed odium onto roshar cause well refugees honors not gonna say no is he or even could he . Then Odium did something singed followed Odium, men switched to Honor, Honor then swore to defeat/imprison odium or perhaps to protect ,mankind/ the cosmere from Odium or some variant on this likely the oath pact is involved in some way.

Point being that as a god of oaths honor is now locked in this battle with odium endlessly, one he can't win . So after thousands of years of conflict with no end, honor knows he should relent in some way as this would be better for his people but cant due to his oaths. I think this causes his madness which eventually leads to cultivation helping to shatter him so she doesn't have to see him suffer.

 

Alternative or maybe in addition to, let consider cultivation position in all this. Odium and honor war for thousands of years, this satisfied both of their shards intents but not cultivation, she wants to see things grow and change but considering how repetitive life on roshar had become during the countless desolation with knowledge being reset again and again, entire cultures fading away and new one starting just to be wiped away. Rinse n Repeat.

Perhaps cultivation was force by her shards intent to make things actually change and the only way to do this was to destroy one of the two. We can assume that honor + cultivation couldn't directly oppose odium either due to agreements or simple strength else they'd of dealt with him at the start of this mess. So Cultivation desperate to see the world change again, in any way and having watch Honor descend into madness decided to team with odium to splinter honor.

This would also explain why she now hate/dislikes mankind, honor let me him, honor defend them and that led to his madness and death. Easier to blame mankind, Spren n Bonds for Honors end than herself. 

She defiantly has a master plan and has perhaps touched more people, Ziel for one, she offered nightblood to Dalinar i think which mean she got its from Ziel at some stage (maybe in trade for granting him access to life light to sustain his being instead of breaths) and gave it to Nahal i assume at some stage.

I also kind of believe in Cultivation had been planning to replace all of roshar Shard vessels with new hosts. Tarvangian , Dalinar and lift, were all touched by her not the night watchers.

She's killed odium as revenge for honor and replacement him with someone shes think will control the power better, she set up Dalinar to perhaps reconnect the splinters of honor and Lift might just be being groomed to succeed cultivation herself because I don't think Cultivation wants to live anymore, after getting her revenge she might be seeking her own end as atonement for her part in honors end.

 

She got a lot going on and to be honest I'm terrified of her, people and shard shake when they talk of odium but odium's fight were direct(ish) conflicts that left him hurt or weakened from them. Where as Cultivation has now directly splintered one Shard, Killed and replaced a different Vessel and might be trying to restore a splintered shard. Woman is terrifying and i just hope she on our side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Colors]

...Odium is two entities...shard and vessel...hence we