What about Ialai and the Sons of Honor?

[Toaster Retribution]

One thing that hasn’t been discussed as much in the wake of the new chapters is Shallans hunt for the Sons of Honor, and, seemingly, Ialai Sadeas. The chapter makes it seem like they have teamed up. 

So, my questions are:

1. Will we finally see Restares?

2. How did Ialai learn of the Sons of Honor, and does she buy into their cause, or does she just want to hijack them?

3. Are the Sons of Honor corrupted by Odium Amaram-style or are they still idependent?

4. If they are idependent, what is their goal now? The Desolation and the Radiants are back.

5. Are Mraize and the Ghostbloods involved in any capacity (fun fact, my phone wanted autocorrect Ghostbloods to Ghostbusters, and now I can’t stop thinking how awesome of a band name ”Mraize and the Ghostbusters” would be).

What do y’all think?

[+Oltux72]

Ialai wants to lead. As far as Torol Sadeas knew about Gavilar's project, I suspect Ialai to share his knowledge. But on the whole I suspect Shallan to be barking up the wrong tree. They are suspecting that they have a leak, but instead of suspecting Taravangian, they are looking at Ialai.

[Requiem17]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They are suspecting that they have a leak, but instead of suspecting Taravangian, they are looking at Ialai.

Absolutely great point! That really cleared it up for me. 

Also do y'all believe that they kidnapped Veil-Chanash because she claimed to have an "in" at Urithiru, and they want in?

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

4. If they are idependent, what is their goal now? The Desolation and the Radiants are back.

I like to hope they and/or the Ghostbloods are still independent, and that they didn't follow Amaram and the Skybreakers to Odium's side. I'm going with "to return the dominance of the Vorin Church (Coppermind)" is still their goal. I don't really get how they're doing it, but I'm hoping we're about to find out!

I'm going to made a wild guess that Restares is some head ardent, and that he's not an ardent we've met before.

 

[HoidsRock]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

1. Will we finally see Restares?

I hope so.  As I mentioned in another post, I find it so interesting that Gavilar lists him as suspect #2 in his assassination.  Did they disagree over direction/control of SoH?  Or (my pet theory) does something change Gavilar's mind about SoH between seeing Jasnah and his death so that his final appeal is to his "mediocre" brother (ROW prologue) as opposed to Amaram or another SoH.  Also at end of WOR, we get Amaram POV and he does not seem to recognize any daylight between the two.  I think he will turn out to be some high ranking ardent.

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2. How did Ialai learn of the Sons of Honor, and does she buy into their cause, or does she just want to hijack them?

I bet it is a marriage of convenience as the SoH want to undermine Dalinar and she wants revenge.  I don't think Mraize is necessarily a reliable narrator but I think he is correct that Ialai is too unstable for any cause except her own. 

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3. Are the Sons of Honor corrupted by Odium Amaram-style or are they still idependent?

My guess is they are still independent.  I have no idea how big an organization they are, but Odium trying to corrupt the entire religious organization...well it seems like there would have been some resistance and somebody in the organization would have said something. The battle of Thaylen Fields needed the surprise of Amaram's betrayal.  I think Odium corrupted Amaram with a long, slow burn, believing that that, along with Dalinar becoming his champion, would be all he needed.

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If they are idependent, what is their goal now? The Desolation and the Radiants are back.

Well, they were more focused on the Heralds than the Radiants and the latter are led by a heretic who thinks the Almighty is dead. Maybe they adopted a new theory:  The Almighty is testing their faithfulness with one last additional test and they need to remove Dalinar to truly bring back the Heralds!  They would not be the first group to modify their revelation on the fly.

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5. Are Mraize and the Ghostbloods involved in any capacity

I bet they are and I hope they're not!  Bad news!

[Pathfinder]

Although I recognize that Ialai and the Sons of Honor could be a main theme in this book, I have a theory that many may not like that I think is a real possibility:

The issue with Ialai is just at the beginning and will be quickly resolved. The reason I say that is no where in both synoposises that we have seen has anything about Ialai been mentioned. In fact the main goal of Shallan and Adolin as per the back of the book is something that has no connection whatsoever to Ialai. Now I suppose it could be reasoned she had some how a hand in honorspren refusing to bond more radiants, but I dunno. I feel like this was just an intro to a mission that had been largely taken place off screen during the year between books, that is nearing its resolution so we can know what Shallan has been up to all this time. Just like Kaladin with Hearthstone and Lirin. He has been going back and forth between the town and Urithiru, and now these opening scenes are the resolution to that. 

 

TLDR: I think Ialai is going to act like the opening minor villain in the book that Shallan takes out and then goes off to the main plot line for her in the novel.

[Karger]

Agreed.  Ialia is going to be taken out earlier she is the last book one villain still around once Roshone dies.  I think the SoH might have recruited her and she is working with them because she hates Dalinar not because she cares about their cause.  Ialia also does still have some authority and access.  They probably would have preferred Dalinar but they are too duplicitous to really have any chance of getting him on their side.  I personally think Restares is the ardent that declared Dalinar a heretic.  A holly man that cares more about overt declarations of support and political power then actual faith.  I also doubt Odium bothered with them much.  He has the diagram and the SoH are too self riotous not to mention stupid to make good servants(too much like blunt instruments).

Edited July 29, 2020 by Karger

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, HoidsRock said:

I don't think Mraize is necessarily a reliable narrator but I think he is correct that Ialai is too unstable for any cause except her own. 

I somewhat disagree with this notion. Mraize seems to operate with an idea of mutual trust. He will threaten you, or offer you deals and promises to make you do what he wants. He will then deliver on the threats and the promises. What he in most cases probably does not do is telling outright lies. It suits him to be seen as trustworthy and building a long-term relationship of mutual benefits with various people. I do think that he deliberately chooses what truths to tell, but I don’t believe that he lies unless it is absolutely necessary.

3 hours ago, Requiem17 said:

I'm going to made a wild guess that Restares is some head ardent, and that he's not an ardent we've met before.

I think head ardent would be a pretty good guess. I think he is one of the men with Gavilar in the prologue of OB. 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Ialia is going to be taken out earlier she is the last book one villain still around once Roshone dies

Ialai isn’t in book 1 at all. She first shows up in WoR. I dont think she is even mentioned in book 1. Oh, and Mr T is still around, and I’d say he is a book 1 villain since mostly everything bad Szeth did in 1 was on his orders.

[Pathfinder]

44 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I somewhat disagree with this notion. Mraize seems to operate with an idea of mutual trust. He will threaten you, or offer you deals and promises to make you do what he wants. He will then deliver on the threats and the promises. What he in most cases probably does not do is telling outright lies. It suits him to be seen as trustworthy and building a long-term relationship of mutual benefits with various people. I do think that he deliberately chooses what truths to tell, but I don’t believe that he lies unless it is absolutely necessary.

I agree but that leads me to ask, what would benefit Mraize in that moment by lying to Shallan about Ialai? I just don't see what purpose that would serve. Which is why I take what he says about Ialai being unstable at face value. 

[Toaster Retribution]

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I agree but that leads me to ask, what would benefit Mraize in that moment by lying to Shallan about Ialai? I just don't see what purpose that would serve. Which is why I take what he says about Ialai being unstable at face value. 

I said that I don´t think Mraize lies very much at all, so I agree. I was discussing the claim that Mraize is a generally unreliable narrator, and not that what he said about Ialai wasn´t true (I think it is). 

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I said that I don´t think Mraize lies very much at all, so I agree. I was discussing the claim that Mraize is a generally unreliable narrator, and not that what he said about Ialai wasn´t true (I think it is). 

Ah, my misunderstanding!

[Toaster Retribution]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ah, my misunderstanding!

No problem!

[Karger]

I agree.  The lying is at best a stop gap measure.  You can't expect it all people with access to this information to keep up with your lies and the only other option is to limit who has any information and doing so makes your organization less efficient.

From this I think we can conclude that Mraize was telling the truth about Ialai and as such had decided to team up with the SoH.  They have probably made some promises to each other about mutual aid.  Either Ialai is angry enough to believe them or she is betting they are wrong and using them.  Depending on their competence they recognize her intent and are either allied in good faith, using each other or being used.  It probably comes down to trying to obtain information that the coalition does not have and using it to cast themselves as an alternative.  Also wild theory I think they have at least one Herald.  Maybe Kelek?

Edited July 29, 2020 by Karger

[HoidsRock]

Interesting points about Mraize.  We do agree that he is reliable in regards to his opinion about Ialai.  I was taking my lead from Pattern in response to Mraize's letter to Shallan:

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“Secrets,” Pattern said. “There are lies in this letter.”

Oathbringer: p. 422

Of course, Pattern has a broad definition of "lie."

[Karger]

3 hours ago, HoidsRock said:

Interesting points about Mraize.  We do agree that he is reliable in regards to his opinion about Ialai.  I was taking my lead from Pattern in response to Mraize's letter to Shallan:

Technically none of the information in that letter has been proven false.  I went over it line by line.  However several of the lines in it were deliberately misleading.

[+Bzhydack]

On 29.07.2020 at 1:21 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

1. Will we finally see Restares?

2. How did Ialai learn of the Sons of Honor, and does she buy into their cause, or does she just want to hijack them?

3. Are the Sons of Honor corrupted by Odium Amaram-style or are they still idependent?

4. If they are idependent, what is their goal now? The Desolation and the Radiants are back.

5. Are Mraize and the Ghostbloods involved in any capacity (fun fact, my phone wanted autocorrect Ghostbloods to Ghostbusters, and now I can’t stop thinking how awesome of a band name ”Mraize and the Ghostbusters” would be).

1. Probably yes. It is very possible he is influencial ardent.

3. Probably not, unless not all of them.

4. They want to Return of Vorin Church Might. And actual leader of humanity and queen of main Vorin state are both heretics. Sons of Honor can be much greater threat than apear on the first glance, I see that Religius War could break up, and this can be devastating.

5. I dont think so, but they will be wellcome. After all, this is against theirs competitors.

23 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are suspecting that they have a leak, but instead of suspecting Taravangian, they are looking at Ialai.

I dont think so. Dalinar dont trust T. But They need to close minor fronts. And, as i mentioned earlier, Sons of Honor could be much greater threat, especially if they can influence Vorin Church.

So, Shallan will be first spy of Dalinar. I wanna see more lightweavers and normal spys. I wanna see Dalinars secret service.