Ideas to help strengthen my magic system

[Swimmingly he/him]

I suggest reading Jim Butcher's Codex Alera for this kind of elemental manipulation, because it has just about everything we've been talking about - using air internally gives you superspeed, earth gives you strength, metal gives you mental discipline (to the point you can walk with no limp on a broken leg), water gives you superpowered empathy/borderline mind-reading, and I forget the others.

Perhaps the Aether mage has a limitation to do with the limits on his own body? I imagine that, because he's using magic that much stronger than anyone else, it's putting a strain on his mind/body/spirit. Just a thought.

The thing about only being able to create, but not control, is that that is still borderline manipulation. A good example is, if you read the Worm web serial (it's a superhero novel with an epic twist and incredibly original powers), Kaiser, who can make blades sprout from any solid, non-living surface. He can outfit himself in armour in a minute just by holding a piece of metal to his chest and making it grow from there, and he can make enormous knives leap out and cut people/block doorways. For air creation, you could create blasts of high pressure - basically point-source explosions.

The thing I'm wondering about only being able to manipulate flame is: does that mean that, if you only have a candle, you can only use a candle's worth of flame, or does it mean that as long as you have any flame at all you can make it grow into a wall of fire and blast people with it?

Edited June 1, 2014 by Swimmingly

[Ashiok]

Could an aether mage be creating by a regular mage absorbing the elementals/fairies of the other elements?

then they are semi insane because they hear the elemental's voices

[Calmseer he/him]

I suggest reading Jim Butcher's Codex Alera for this kind of elemental manipulation, because it has just about everything we've been talking about - using air internally gives you superspeed, earth gives you strength, metal gives you mental discipline (to the point you can walk with no limp on a broken leg), water gives you superpowered empathy/borderline mind-reading, and I forget the others.

 

Perhaps the Aether mage has a limitation to do with the limits on his own body? I imagine that, because he's using magic that much stronger than anyone else, it's putting a strain on his mind/body/spirit. Just a thought.

 

The thing about only being able to create, but not control, is that that is still borderline manipulation. A good example is, if you read the Worm web serial (it's a superhero novel with an epic twist and incredibly original powers), Kelsier, who can make blades sprout from any solid, non-living surface. He can outfit himself in armour in a minute just by holding a piece of metal to his chest and making it grow from there, and he can make enormous knives leap out and cut people/block doorways. For air creation, you could create blasts of high pressure - basically point-source explosions.

 

The thing I'm wondering about only being able to manipulate flame is: does that mean that, if you only have a candle, you can only use a candle's worth of flame, or does it mean that as long as you have any flame at all you can make it grow into a wall of fire and blast people with it?

I think I need to clarify something. My original intention was to divide the 6 elements into constructive and destructive categories. The constructive elements are metal, wood and earth. This is because they are used constructively they are primarily used to sprout up walls and perhaps as armors. Basically they are defensive elements. This does not mean that they cannot also be thrown, its just that they are not typically used in this way. The destructive elements are fire, water and air. They are used primarily to be blasted at the enemy. 

 

Now the candle issue. I think for wood I want to have the mage be able to have seeds that they can sprout into vines to form walls and also to entangle the enemy with. So I think it would only be natural for a fire mage to be able to sprout fire from a small source as well.

[Kurkistan he/him]

...A good example is, if you read the Worm web serial (it's a superhero novel with an epic twist and incredibly original powers), Kelsier, who can make blades sprout from any solid, non-living surface. He can outfit himself in armour in a minute just by holding a piece of metal to his chest and making it grow from there, and he can make enormous knives leap out and cut people/block doorways. For air creation, you could create blasts of high pressure - basically point-source explosions...

 

I think you meant Kaiser there.

 

Worm's a good series, by the way. I sometimes have to restrain myself from saying "just like Shamrock's power!" or the like in magic-related conversation because that series covered so many original power ideas. LONG AS LONG IS LOOOOOOOONG, though. 

Edited June 1, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Swimmingly he/him]

Stupid similar-sounding character names and dysfunctional memory filing system.

And, yeah, it's long. It took me a few months to read. But it's good stuff.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Swimmingly

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Calmseer

 

I probably should have said this earlier (ideally before throwing multiple walls of text at you), but a small note of caution:

 

You are the author here, and this is your vision. If you have a vision of a world and a magic system, then don't let us distract you from it with out own idle fancies. Of course we're more than happy to offer suggestions and criticisms, but you're the one who's going to be sitting down and writing the thing, so you have full control over the discussion.

 

That said, it may actually be worthwhile at some point for a few of us to take on something of an adversarial role to you. It seems you have a fairly deep idea of how you want the magic to function, and may just be having trouble getting it across. So if you say "Wood mages can grow plants really fast out of seeds", that leaves a fairly large amount of wiggle room for terrible people like me to nominate themselves for watchlists with.

 

In that spirit, then, would you like it if I and/or a few others took on the role of an evil mage/organization in your universe who's sole goal is to munchkin the Damnation out of the magic system and subvert it to their own ends?

 

You can then take note of possible holes in your specification of the magic system, and either explain your vision in more depth, realize/accept those implications in your world (and so increase the depth of your worldbuilding), or perhaps even change your magic system entirely to stop such abuse. No matter what, I think your understanding of your own magic system and the world you're building around it can only be improved by such a discussion.

 

So example challenge, then: "Hello, my name is Kelsier ( ) and I'm a Metal mage. I just, from across the room, sprouted the earring my foe was wearing into a giant spike the pierced his skull. Is that cool with you, God Calmseer?"

Edited June 1, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Swimmingly he/him]

I'm a wood mage. I just made those watermelon seeds in my opponent's stomach send out feelers, clogging his gastrointestinal system and straining at the organ walls. In a moment, the melons will start to grow and ripen, spraying diluted hydrochloric acid into the inside of his torso, popping his abdominal muscles off their anchors like thick leeches, and ultimately growing delicious sugary melons in his bloody corpse.

 

Is that cool with you? Cause it really shouldn't be. That is just sick.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Swimmingly

[Kurkistan he/him]

*Note to self: Swimmingly knows a scary amount of biology. And is himself scary. Avoid.*

[Swimmingly he/him]

I am an air mage. I keep sealed magically pressurized canisters of poison gas on my person - tiny ones, with only a hundred CCs or so of gas in them when at one atmosphere of pressure. I can smash these and guide the cloud of poison directly into someone's lungs, giving them the highest possible dose. If I can inflict a single injury on my opponent, they're done for because I can force air through the wound and into their bloodstream.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I am an air mage. I keep sealed magically pressurized canisters of poison gas on my person - tiny ones, with only a hundred CCs or so of gas in them when at one atmosphere of pressure. I can smash these and guide the cloud of poison directly into someone's lungs, giving them the highest possible dose. If I can inflict a single injury on my opponent, they're done for because I can force air through the wound and into their bloodstream.

 

Just to be clear what this does, Calmseer, this will pretty much guarantee an air embolism as the air mage ensure the gas goes where he wants it to.

 

Let's leave off on posting more test cases until Calmseer give the okay, though.

 

---

 

If you want some inspiration on "make things grow out of nothing as a combat tactic", here's a fight scene with the Kaiser character we were talking about (Warning: Some spoilers for the serial and also a tad of content warning in terms of gore). There's also another "sprout stuff out of stuff" character who comes in later in the series and has some more fight scenes for you to look at. Slightly more than slightly larger spoilers for the serial, just so you know.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Aether he/him]

Anyways, to your earlier question I missed about my ideas on Aether. Yes, an Aether mage creates Aether, which can magically mimic one of the elements. It grants much more flexibility. Take fire: under this system, normal fire users could manipulate any fire they want, but they cannot create it. Aether mages can shape their Aether however, and spontaneously create fire that they can then manipulate– thus, flinging fireballs around whenever they want. Normal Metal mages can produce any metal they want, but they cannot manipulate it. Aether Metal, however, can be manipulated, allowing for the use of all that crazy stuff Kurk was talking about– Metal armor, spinning razor blades through the air, etc.

Did someone say Aether? I mean, like, a bazillion times?

[Calmseer he/him]

I think it is extremely helpful for you all to keep posting possible abuses of my magic system. 

 

I am okay with a metal mage being able to take advantage of the metal on a persons' body. I think this is something that is unavoidable when dealing with someone that can manipulate metal.

 

I don't think the watermelon seeds one would work. For a mage to take advantage of something they need to have either vision of what they are manipulating or an acute knowledge of what will happen (in the case of air since it cannot actually be seen). This is because the magic is performed through mental will, and in order for the magic to actually take effect a proper mental image must be achieved. I don't think a mage would be able to have acute knowledge of exactly where the watermelon seeds were in a persons body and so they would not be able to act on them. 

 

On a side note, I think for my fire mages I want them to manipulate Heat instead of actual fire. They can still create fire, however, by focusing an amount of heat onto the magic source energy. This would not be true fire, but instead something called magefire. Fire mages would still be able to manipulate normal fire since it is heat. I think the type of mages that use magefire would be really advanced in their abilities; I would also allow advanced water mages to pull moisture out of the air.

 

As far as the poison gas goes, I think I would allow this just because it has some pretty neat implications for a sect of air mage assassins. I was actually intending to have an air mage assassin already, so this would be a cool ability for him.

[Gabriele she/her]

Is that cool with you? Cause it really shouldn't be. That is just sick.

 

But fun.

[Calmseer he/him]

Also, I had a thought that to add a little something, my mages would have the moonshards embedded into their bodies. Also, I think in order to allow for more magic usage that the sun will be able to charge all shards. This way if there is a fight during the day its not a complete one-off burst of magic and then that's it. Essentially, I foresee a fight starting off with long ranged magic throwing and blocking and then once the shards are depleted the fight would become a close combat situation. At night, however, when the appropriate moons are out it would be a free-for-all of magic slinging. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

What about giving mages a certain amount of low-level magic permanently, like some kind of muscular reserve or something? Essentially, they can create small amounts of magic with their bodies, for things like minute telekinesis or just enhanced strength, but they can only use elemental magic when they have moonlight?

[Ashiok]

How about you take the Mistborn way out and say that mages can't affect things attached to other people. Like how Allomancers can't push on inquisitor spikes normally

[Calmseer he/him]

How about you take the Mistborn way out and say that mages can't affect things attached to other people. Like how Allomancers can't push on inquisitor spikes normally

Yeah I was thinking about that. That way there wouldn't be any earth mages trying to manipulate the moonshards of other mages. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

Or just make moonshards arbitrarily unaffectable - they're more of magic than earth or something like that. Of course, that could also make them very handy for mage-assassination projectile weapons.

[Calmseer he/him]

Or just make moonshards arbitrarily unaffectable - they're more of magic than earth or something like that. Of course, that could also make them very handy for mage-assassination projectile weapons.

I really like that!!! An excellent way for nonmages to combat mages. There could be shard weapons and shard armor. Although, I would have to come up with a different name or run this risk of copying Sanderson's shardplate and shardblade concepts.

[Calmseer he/him]

If I set it in a steam punk setting I could have mechanize moonshard "guns". Closer to a crossbow I would think, though. 

 

While I am on the topic of steampunk. I think this could be an interesting way to incorporate aether into the novel more than making an aether mage an Avatar. The aether could be the source for the steampunk technology, although I guess the genre would become aetherpunk lol.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Calmseer

[Kurkistan he/him]

Did someone say Aether? I mean, like, a bazillion times?

 

Yeah, that one got a bit odd for me as well.

 

I don't think the watermelon seeds one would work. For a mage to take advantage of something they need to have either vision of what they are manipulating or an acute knowledge of what will happen (in the case of air since it cannot actually be seen). This is because the magic is performed through mental will, and in order for the magic to actually take effect a proper mental image must be achieved. I don't think a mage would be able to have acute knowledge of exactly where the watermelon seeds were in a persons body and so they would not be able to act on them.

Let's talk more about how exactly mages go about controlling their element.

 

"Still Kel. We've got a lot to talk about. Let's talk detection. How do I know metal is there? If you take a wooden spoon and coat it with silver, will I be able to tell the difference between the metal in the paint and a pure-metal spoon? What if the wooden spoon was just painted with a non-metallic-but-silvery-looking paint ? Can I detect metals without looking at them? Can I direct power to them without looking at them? Can I direct power at metals without knowing if they're there or not? How in-depth does my mental image have to be, exactly?"

-As we learned in mistborn, even just knowing stuff is there can be very useful sometimes.

 

---

 

"Hi, Kelsier the Metal Mage again. Can I please pull the blood out of my enemies by the iron in them?"

 

"Kel here. So this guy's running at me with a sword. I don't really like him. Are you _sure_ I can't Magneto-style the sword into turning around and stabbing him in the face?"

 

"Still Kelsier. What about building a robot and controlling it with my mind? How far can I get it? How small can it be? How fine is my control? How many can I control at a time? Because, you see, I had this idea for a swarm of metallic mosquitos that drilled into peoples' brains, and..."

 

Depending on your answer to that...

-"Okay, so I can control metal that I created. Cool beans, that makes sense. So you're cool with how I created a millimeter coating of new metal around that one guy's sword and then used that skin as a control interface to turn the sword around and stab him in the face, right?"

 

EDIT:

 

"Kel still. I'll be 'round awhile. How fast can I grow this metal, and how much from an given point? Can I take a fleck of metal 1mm squared and grow it into a 30 foot spike in half a second? Please?"

 

"Can I shrink metal? Because that'd be nice."

 

If yes:

-"HAHA! YOU FELL FOR IT! Now I would like to make myself into a superhero who has thousands of spikes and tentacles and arms and whatnot that punch out of and then retract into my armor however I like whenever I like. Think Doc Oc but better in terms of traversal of terrain (punching through walls and stilting my way around and the like), battling enemies, etc..."

Edited June 2, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

"Hello, My name's Pyro, and I'm a Fire Mage. I didn't like that Air mage guy, he seemed kind of, Fishy. So I used my Fire Magic to Suck all the Heat out of him, Freezing him Solid!"

 

'Fire' Mages who Manipulate heat should be able to Create Ice. Is there a Problem with This?

 

"Hello, My Names, Bob, and I'm a Wood Mage, I just Planted all these Tree Seeds, and grew them into a Linving HOuse!. Tommorow, me and a Guild of Wood Mage/Engineer's are going to Grow a living City for the Elves to Live in!"

 

Is stuff like this Ok?

 

"Hello, My Names Kurkistan, And I keep taking advantage of your Magic system to kill people in Inventive Ways! Why Aren't I on my Own List?"

[Kurkistan he/him]

"Hello, My Names Kurkistan, And I keep taking advantage of your Magic system to kill people in Inventive Ways! Why Aren't I on my Own List?"

 

The occupancy of the List^TM is determined entirely at the discretion of KURKISTAN LTD., and is not subject to appeal or criticism.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Hello, Pyro again! I just used my Fire Magic to Burn Down KURKISTAN LTD. Is this OK?

 

Please say yes.

[Darkarma he/him]

"Hullo I'm Sylvar the metal mage, I don't particularly like this politician's views on the economic crisis so I just gave him a lobotomy by messing with the sodium potassium pumps of all that useless gray matter in his head. Is that alright with you?

Will anyone notice that he's been affected by magic?"

 

Sorry just had to join in, this is to much of a fun thread.

 

Just a thought for metal mages in general, if you haven't already, you may want to take a look at your table of elements. You'd be surprised how many things actually have metal in them. These are the folks who'd also likely be messing radioactive materials as well and would probably be ideal assassins.