Divine Attributes and Oaths

[Bigmikey357]

In-world our characters often speak of Divine Attributes as holdovers of Vorin theology with no other significance.  They were supposedly modeled after what ancient peoples considered were the Heralds most notable noble characteristics. However,  as the Final Desolation begins in earnest on Roshar people should begin seeing that some of those previously dismissed holdovers have more relevance than was once believed.  The Divine Attributes are one of those ancient concepts I believe should regain relevance as the spren return to fulfill that ancient contract. 

I am of the opinion that the Divine Attributes have a definite and direct relationship with the Oaths a Knight Radiant speaks to solidify the Nahel Bond with their spren.  Both of the Attributes are important,  although they are applied differently.  One involves what the Knight pledges,  the other is what the Knight achieves by said pledge. 

The issue with my theory is of course that although we've seen at least one person from every Knight Radiant order we've only seen the words for half of them. However,  I believe that it's a good sample size, especially considering that they are not on the same side of the Double Eye chart.  Another issue is that they don't necessarily always map to primary secondary as listed.  But I'll lay out the examples of the Oaths we do have and how they map to the attributes. People can then decide for themselves.

Bondsmith: Pious/Guiding

I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together.

“I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. ”

These Oaths are a guide for how men should live, especially if they are a Knight Radiant and double that if they are Bondsmiths.  In adhering to these Oaths a Bondsmith strengthens their connection to God,  becoming more pious almost by default. 

Windrunner: Protecting/Leading 

I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.

 

I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.-Kaladin 

This one is much more straightforward.  Protection is what they are all about,  it's even in the wording.  In following these Oaths one becomes a better leader, for the essence of a good leader is one who cares about people,  both those they serve and those they command. Note that this isn't the only way to lead, but the Windrunner does imply that this is either the best way or at least the only way that they will accept. 

Skybreaker: Just/Confident 

I will put the law before all else.

There are other Oaths,  they're the only Order for which we have their complete list. But to summarize,  they are all about law. Justice.  A budding Skybreaker chooses to follow the law, something external to themselves for they do not trust their own interpretation,  fearing their own bias. Although they never completely lose this worldview their Oaths are designed towards making that Skybreaker more confident in their interpretation of law. What else is the Ideal of Crusade for if not to test a worldview against a reality and seeing what comes out the other side?

Lightweaver: Creative/Honest

The only Order that swears only one Ideal and advances on Truths instead, the honesty portion of the Divine attributes is obvious.  The creativity portion is implied however.  The spren of their order generally chose people who are creative already. As they shine light into the dark corners of their soul they are able to rise to greater heights of creativity, the better they can use the pain they find as fuel for their art. And since they sit on Cultivation's side of the double Eye,  the better they grow. 

Edgedancer: Loving/Healing 

 

I will remember those who have been forgotten. 

I will listen to those who have been ignored.

Though traditionally fierce and elegant on the battlefield,  Edgedancers are best known for their healing prowess. They do so through acts of love. They love the people who are in need of it,  the people for whom love has passed by and by doing so they heal. Even Nale, an insane Immortal,  was touched by the healing of an Edgedancer, no awesomeness required. As an Edgedancer progresses they will be better able to heal wounds Stormlight cannot touch because their capacity for love grows with each Oath given.

I suspect that the other Orders will follow a similar pattern and we have some indications of this through personality types. Jasnah seems wise, Renarin is Learned or at least has the potential to be, Venli has shown resolve more than once in the narrative and Taln is the most dependable human ever born. However without the words we cannot be 100% sure. There's even some uncertainty with the Orders we do have words for; that list is not complete.  But I am more confident in those, using Skybreakers as a guide. I'm certainly willing to discuss places where we agree or disagree. 

[The Deity]

I've thought similarly it seems that their characteristics are mainly indicative of what Order they will be, Jasnah thought so as she said that Kaladin acted as she thought a Windrunner would. Also since Bridge Four has spent more time with Kaladin, they may begin to share his ideas and characteristics which align them with Windrunners even more. 

I think that the Ideal of Crusade is meant to show conviction, not necessarily to test a worldview. Granted it may be part of it, but I had thought it was to show dedication to a goal separate from themselves and to enforce it as such. I think that this makes sense for Malata as well because she doesn't like being controlled and is like her spren in the sense that she wants to break things. I don't know if Taln is actually part of the Stonewards because as far as we know Nale is the only one to join his corresponding Order, but it would make sense for him. 

[Karger]

You already know I think the attributes are a social construction with more meaning to due with culture then the magic system itself.  As an OP it works though.  Good job.

[+ILuvHats]

I like this breakdown. I've felt similarly, but haven't been able to put it in words like you have. Of the orders we are intimately familiar with, this line of thought looks to be an excellent model for the oaths. It might even be useful for predicting unseen oaths, to an extent.

@Karger I'm not sure if you're doubting the validity of the OP or not. If you are, here's how I see it. The oaths themselves were originally a social construct, since they weren't inherent to surgebinding, but were later added to keep surgebinders in check. Also, it's likely the oaths were based off of the herald's attitudes considering the spren were already trying to mimic the herald's abilities, and mimicking their ideologies would just be taking it one step further. So, there's a clear connection between the oaths and the attributes.

I agree that the current perceptions of the divine attributes and the rituals/traditions surrounding them is probably a lot of fluff, but the core concepts of the attributes were based on the herald's ideologies, which led to the the oaths. So the OP's line of reasoning seems correct to me. Even if social constructs blur the truth, they're usually based in facts. 

[Karger]

44 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

I'm not sure if you're doubting the validity of the OP or not

I do doubt it but since it is an OP not a declaration of fact I obviously can't prove it to be wrong.

44 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

The oaths themselves were originally a social construct, since they weren't inherent to surgebinding

We don't actually know how the oaths developed.  It is possible(in my view likely) that someone added them as an inherent part of the magic system through some kind of SR alteration.

44 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

Also, it's likely the oaths were based off of the herald's attitudes considering the spren were already trying to mimic the herald's abilities, and mimicking their ideologies would just be taking it one step further

Except the Heralds are people so their "attributes" are at best a major simplification of who they are and what they represent.  At worst they could be a cultural understanding of some extremely badly kept records on what the Heralds actually said and did.  An example.  One of the divine attributes attributed to Ishar is piety.  However Ishar had actual knowledge of who the shards were and how they worked.  What seemed to the people coming up with the attributes was a great deal of faith that was rewarded because of its truth was actually Ishar just being super well informed and doing his homework.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Karger

[+ILuvHats]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We don't actually know how the oaths developed.  It is possible(in my view likely) that someone added them as an inherent part of the magic system through some kind of SR alteration.

That's what I meant when I said the oaths weren't inherent to the magic system. I agree that they were added later, likely as a means to keep the surgebinders in check and to prevent a catastrophe like Ashyn from occurring again.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Except the Heralds are people so their "attributes" are at best a major simplification of who they are and what they represent.  At worst they could be a cultural understanding of some extremely badly kept records on what the Heralds actually said and did.  An example.  One of the divine attributes attributed to Ishar is piety.  However Ishar had actual knowledge of who the shards were and how they worked.  What seemed to the people coming up with the attributes was a great deal of faith that was rewarded because of its truth was actually Ishar just being super well informed and doing his homework.

In the end, we'll probably have to agree to disagree since this is all speculation. But let me run you through my thought process. 

1. The heralds notice all these surgebinders popping up, and fear Roshar will meet the same fate as Ashyn.

2. Ishar comes up with the idea to regulate the surgebinders by creating orders based around oaths. 

3. The oaths are devised by the heralds, with each one developing the oaths for one order, making ten orders in total.

4. Ishar, possibly with the help of Honor and/or other heralds, uses spiritual shenanigans to incorporate the oaths into the magic system.

Basically, I think the heralds themselves came up with the oaths based on their ideas and perceptions of how to pursue honor. While the attributes were later attached to the heralds, they are representations (albeit oversimplified ones) of what the heralds thought were important. This is reflected in the orders themselves. Maybe I'm wrong, but hopefully you have a clearer understanding of why I think the OP is legitimate.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by ILuvHats

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

3. The oaths are devised by the heralds, with each one developing the oaths for one order, making ten orders in total.

Stops you right here.  First in #1 you meant Ashyn. Secondly Ishar could easily have made all 10 orders by himself based on his understanding.  Thirdly Ishar might not have exactly made the oaths themselves.  Perhaps they were already "available" in the SR and Ishar just altered the natural "current" of the magic system so that it passed through that SR "area.(this is basically what I think happened anyway)."  Fourth where does Nohadon fit in with either chronology?  We know he did something.  Finally I don't like this OP because it means that the oaths are based on what individual humans decided were the right ideals for the knights to follow.  However(unfortunately) me not liking something is not grounds for it being wrong.

[+ILuvHats]

45 minutes ago, Karger said:

Stops you right here.  First in #1 you meant Ashyn. Secondly Ishar could easily have made all 10 orders by himself based on his understanding.  Thirdly Ishar might not have exactly made the oaths themselves.  Perhaps they were already "available" in the SR and Ishar just altered the natural "current" of the magic system so that it passed through that SR "area.(this is basically what I think happened anyway)."  Fourth where does Nohadon fit in with either chronology?  We know he did something.  Finally I don't like this OP because it means that the oaths are based on what individual humans decided were the right ideals for the knights to follow.  However(unfortunately) me not liking something is not grounds for it being wrong.

Agree to disagree. The only thing we know with reasonable certainty is that Ishar organized the orders. We don’t know how the oaths were introduced into surgebinding, only that they didn’t exist during during at least part of Nohadon’s life. So yes, there are a lot of other options for what could have happened. Again, my ideas are pure speculation, and you’re right that I forgot to account for Nohadon. But I wasn’t trying to say I was definitively right, but rather that those are my beliefs and that the OP fits into my head canon. And my beliefs are as valid as yours. I didn’t mean to come across as trying to convince you that you were definitively wrong in my first post. I was just to get you to consider the possibility of legitimacy. 

If we want to go meta, I don’t think Brandon would include the divine attributes in the Ars Arcanum if they were so obscured by social customs and traditions as to have no particular connection to anything. Because maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I think you’re saying. That they are purely social constructs with barely any connection to the herald’s actual personalities.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by ILuvHats

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

And my beliefs are as valid as yours. I didn’t mean to come across as trying to convince you that you were definitively wrong in my first post. I was just to get you to consider the possibility of legitimacy. 

I did and still do.

6 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

Because maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I think you’re saying. That they are purely social constructs with barely any connection to the herald’s actual personalities.

Agreed.

[Bigmikey357]

Something that may bear relevance to the discussion,  the spren that make up the Nahel Bond are old but may not have existed prior to the creation of the Knights Radiant. Stormfather and Nightwatcher were present before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation in system, the cousin spren of the KR obviously existed as sapient life inhabited Roshar, but the 9 spren that specifically grant the bond and make up the Orders may not have existed before Ishar made his ultimatum.  

What if Ishar goes to Honor with his idea to regulate the surgebinders and Honor says cool, we can do that. He takes some Windspren and elevates a few to become Honorspren,  creationspren to Cryptics, lifespren to Cultivationspren and ect. He or he and Cultivation build in a mandate as to the type of people they can bond with and the conditions by which the bond mate can gain more power. These conditions were initially somewhat nebulous but over the years became codified. Humans are great at pattern recognition so the humans involved noticed what the pattern was and put it into words as guiding principles for future generations.  Men get regulated by oaths, the spren get regulated by the pre existing Megaspren SF/NW. The Sibling is created by the same process as the other Orders spren.

If it happened that way then these concepts that drive the KR progression,  these Divine attributes,  could have been built in when the spren were born. It wouldn't matter then who came up with the concepts. Could be a cultural perception of what the Heralds were, it could have been Ishar in an act of positive PR, it could have been an agreement between Honor and Cultivation on what these Divine attributes should be.  However the concepts entered the system, once there they became self perpetuating. 

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

but the 9 spren that specifically grant the bond and make up the Orders may not have existed before Ishar made his ultimatum.  

But there was an Honorspren mentioned in the Nohadon vision which seems to be pre ideals.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Karger

[Wintersu]

5 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

 

3. The oaths are devised by the heralds, with each one developing the oaths for one order, making ten orders in total

I don’t think it worked quite like that. I’ll base my argument that Nale took a long time to accept the Skybreakers at all. They were a fully functioning order before he came around to them.

[+ILuvHats]

3 minutes ago, Wintersu said:

I don’t think it worked quite like that. I’ll base my argument that Nale took a long time to accept the Skybreakers at all. They were a fully functioning order before he came around to them.

I forgot about that. Good point.

[Bigmikey357]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

But there was an Honorspren mentioned in the Nohadon vision which seems to be pre ideals.

That's a good point.  They may not have been created specifically as Nahel spren.  But the possibility still exists that they could have been coopted into the system as our Bondsmith spren obviously were.

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That's a good point.  They may not have been created specifically as Nahel spren.  But the possibility still exists that they could have been coopted into the system as our Bondsmith spren obviously were.

In Honor's vision he states that the spren themselves took initiative.

[Bigmikey357]

That doesn't invalidate my point 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That doesn't invalidate my point 

Could you restate your position including this "new" information?  It might clear things up.

[Bigmikey357]

Spren did take the initiative as far as bonding humans were concerned.  They even found a way to copy Honorblades using their own Physical Realm bodies as a medium.  But Ishar was said to force organization upon the Oath binding process.  So maybe instead of men being the impetus to incorporating the Divine attributes into progression Oaths the spren instead used what attracted them to certain people to form those attributes. This could still be accomplished by observation of the humans they preferred to bestow a bond upon. Regardless of the origin however it seems to me that those attributes became an integral part of the Oaths.