Minor Observation on the Manifestation of Shardic Bodies in the Physical Realm

[WeiryWriter]

super long pretentious title because I can FTW!!!
 
Okay so I remember reading some people taking this quote:
 

Adolin summoned his Blade, then dismissed it, then summoned it again. A nervous habit. The white fog appeared—manifesting as little vines sprouting in the air—before snapping into the form of a Shardblade, which suddenly weighed down his hand

 
and saying that because it started as "little vines" the spren that makes up Adolin's Shardblade has to be an Edgedancer spren or closely related to it.  That logic never really sat right with me (though admittedly I am biased against it because of some of my minor theories).
 
Flashforward to my reread of the Mistborn series, and I come across this (emphasis mine):
 

Vin landed softly on the damp cobblestones, watching as he mists began to form around her. They puffed into existence as darkness fell, growing like tangles of vines, twisting and wrapping around one another.

 

Now personally I think the use of "vine" in both cases is mostly a descriptive coincidence, but it did get me thinking about the similarities between the mists/lerasium and the summoning-fog/shardblade relationships. The former are directly described as being the "body" (i.e. physical aspect) of Preservation.  Could the same be true of the latter as well? I'm inclined to say yes, they are the "bodies" of spren which are themselves Splinters.

 

Anyway, I don't really know what I wanted to say but I figured I should share...

[Tempus]

The vinelike appearance could have a similar root cause.

[MistLord]

I guess vines seem unnatural to most of us - tendrils seem to be more natural use of the word, therefore making us think 'vine' was used intentionally to stand out. 

 

The Mist and the Shardblade are actually almost definitely the same in mechanics somehow, though what this means, I can't really say... Haven't most people been referring to the Mists as Preservation's Spiritual aspect to its Investiture anyhow? And that the Shardpool was Cognitive aspect. This may challenge that, as Shardblades are Cognitive creatures. 

 

The vinelike appearance could have a similar root cause.

Oh no you didn't.

[Cstryon]

I really don't know how this idea was planted. OKAY sorry, I'll not start that.

It could be similar descriptions because it's the same guy writing. But that idea is lame.

I always thought the way the blades formed must be related to stormlight. And don't we have a WoB that stormlight and the Mists are similar? Or is that breath?

I'm thinking that all three are related. Maybe it's some similar way all the shards show. Endowment has some...prismatic effect "like oil over water" I think is what Vasher said in Warbreaker. Honor seems to have a "highstorm" look to it. And I think Preservation had some weird way of moving that told you it was the "Mists" and not just fog.

[Moogle]

and saying that because it started as "little vines" the spren that makes up Adolin's Shardblade has to be an Edgedancer spren or closely related to it.  That logic never really sat right with me (though admittedly I am biased against it because of some of my minor theories).

 

Kaladin's Blade is not described as appearing as vines:

 

“Kaladin!” Syl’s voice. “Stretch forth thy hand!”

She zipped around him, suddenly visible as a ribbon of light.

“I can’t . . .” Kaladin said, drained.

“Stretch forth thy hand!” He reached out a trembling hand. Moash hesitated. Wind blew in the opening in the wall, and Syl’s ribbon of light became mist, a form she often took. Silver mist, which grew larger, coalesced before Kaladin, extending into his hand. Glowing, brilliant, a Shardblade emerged from the mist, vivid blue light shining from swirling patterns along its length.

 

Indeed, Kaladin's Blade appears as if from air (mist). Appropriate for a spren closely related to the windspren.

 

I think the connection between the mists appearing like vines and Adolin's Blade is mostly coincidental. I'd be surprised if it were anything else, and I would be just as surprised if Adolin's Blade was not from a Cultivation-y spren like Wyndle/Glys.

[Aether]

I don't have access to my book right now, but how is the summoning of Shallan's Blade described?

[Moogle]

I don't have access to my book right now, but how is the summoning of Shallan's Blade described?

 

The best description I can find is this:

She advanced, raising her blade. “I’m sorry that you have to learn the lesson this way. Sometimes, we must do things we don’t like, kid. Difficult things.”

Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward. Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver Blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest.

 

Similar to how Pattern twists and changes form all the time, I'd say. Unfortunately, despite the number of times Shallan summons her Shardblade, it's not really described anywhere else.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Moogle

[CWS]

...as Shardblades are Cognitive creatures. 

Living shardblades are spren that used to reside in the cognitive realm but are manifesting in the physical.  The shardblades that are summoned are different, I've always taken the description of mist when summoning to mean that they're being pulled from the spiritual realm not cognitive, that these particular "spren" that manifest as dead blades in the physical realm are more in the spiritual realm (hence all the reference to them being dead)

 

So, my thought: living shardblade = physical realm already = no mist.  Dead shardblade = spiritual realm, crossing from spiritual to physical = mists.

[PorridgeBrick]

Shallan's blade. Living. Very misty. Argument invalid.

[WeiryWriter]

I guess vines seem unnatural to most of us - tendrils seem to be more natural use of the word, therefore making us think 'vine' was used intentionally to stand out. 

 

The Mist and the Shardblade are actually almost definitely the same in mechanics somehow, though what this means, I can't really say... Haven't most people been referring to the Mists as Preservation's Spiritual aspect to its Investiture anyhow? And that the Shardpool was Cognitive aspect. This may challenge that, as Shardblades are Cognitive creatures. 

 

Oh no you didn't.

In the The Hero of Ages epigraphs I do remember Sazed saying something similar to that (though in a cursory search I can't find it), however I've always interpreted that as a metaphor. He's talking about how everything has three aspects (Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual) and compares that to phase/state changes in physical objects (ice, water, and steam are all the same material just in different phases)

But the Mists/the liquid in the Well/lerasium are all part of the physical aspect of Preservation by default, they *are* physical materials manifesting in the Physical Realm.

 

I really don't know how this idea was planted. OKAY sorry, I'll not start that.

It could be similar descriptions because it's the same guy writing. But that idea is lame.

I always thought the way the blades formed must be related to stormlight. And don't we have a WoB that stormlight and the Mists are similar? Or is that breath?

I'm thinking that all three are related. Maybe it's some similar way all the shards show. Endowment has some...prismatic effect "like oil over water" I think is what Vasher said in Warbreaker. Honor seems to have a "highstorm" look to it. And I think Preservation had some weird way of moving that told you it was the "Mists" and not just fog.

The WoB in question actually says that the mists are more like the highstorms than stormlight. 

And yeah it is noted on several occasions that the Mist is different than ordinary fog and the common reason cited is that it moves in grand patterns and such. The other is that the Mists won't enter a building (which might be related to gemstones having to be outside to be infused?).

 

Kaladin's Blade is not described as appearing as vines:

 

Indeed, Kaladin's Blade appears as if from air (mist). Appropriate for a spren closely related to the windspren.

 

I think the connection between the mists appearing like vines and Adolin's Blade is mostly coincidental. I'd be surprised if it were anything else, and I would be just as surprised if Adolin's Blade was not from a Cultivation-y spren like Wyndle/Glys.

The best description I can find is this:

 

Similar to how Pattern twists and changes form all the time, I'd say. Unfortunately, despite the number of times Shallan summons her Shardblade, it's not really described anywhere else.

I'm not sure we can compare Syl and Pattern forming blades to this. They are already manifesting in the Physical Realm, they are just changing shape. The dead shardblades have to manifest themselves so it isn't going to look exactly the same.

[Moogle]

I'm not sure we can compare Syl and Pattern forming blades to this. They are already manifesting in the Physical Realm, they are just changing shape. The dead shardblades have to manifest themselves so it isn't going to look exactly the same.

 

This is something I've always been curious on - where do dead spren go? I've heard tons of theories on them going into/being stored in the Spiritual Realm, but it seems plausible to me that the dead spren just sort of mindlessly float around, tethered to their holders in the Physical.

 

Nobody would see this because Nahel spren tend to be invisible anyways, and unless you're a KR (or someone who can hear the screaming of Shardblades), then you don't get to see the spren of the Blade you are bonded to because you lack the Investiture that Surgebinders get.

 

So, I think you make a good point here. There are definitely unknown differences between live and dead sprenblades. I'm not persuaded, though. I'd need a full theory of where the dead spren go when not summoned in Shardblade form, and an explanation for why this would cause them to manifest differently when turning into a Shardblade. After all, the mist doesn't appear until the end of ten heartbeats, and this is the time you'd think they spend transitioning over from wherever they are to the Physical.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Moogle

[CWS]

Shallan's blade. Living. Very misty. Argument invalid.

I only read through once, and not with an eye to this question, but has it been stated that Shallan's shardblade is Pattern?  It behaves far more like a dead one than a living one, I just assumed cryptics didn't react in similar fashion to dead blades as other bonded spren (Syl and Renarin's) 

 

I do recall Pattern being interested in Shallan much earlier than she was aware (even progressing further down the path of bonding him), but I took the extraordinary circumstances of her life (to include acquiring and using a shardblade) to be what drew Pattern to her, not the other way around.

 

I'll agree though, if we have proof that Shallan's blade is infact Pattern (or that cryptics cause lightweavers to hear the screaming of dead shardblades when they touch them) then mists are not a hallmark exclusive to summoning from the spiritual realm into the physical realm. 

[MistLord]

This is something I've always been curious on - where do dead spren go? I've heard tons of theories on them going into/being stored in the Spiritual Realm, but it seems plausible to me that the dead spren just sort of mindlessly float around, tethered to their holders in the Physical.

I remember the first time I was introduced to realmatics there was mention when I searched up the spiritual realms along the lines of "not much is known about the spiritual realm, shardblades are stored here". It was the first of the my realmatic understandings however, so I'm not sure how valid they are... (and after a quick search, the source of my info - the coppermind - doesn't have any reference to it [darn they need to update the shadesmar page]).

 

CWS, if you don't know about it then I'm hesitant to tell you, because the revelation is quite awesome. 

[Moogle]

I remember the first time I was introduced to realmatics there was mention when I searched up the spiritual realms along the lines of "not much is known about the spiritual realm, shardblades are stored here". It was the first of the my realmatic understandings however, so I'm not sure how valid they are... (and after a quick search, the source of my info - the coppermind - doesn't have any reference to it [darn they need to update the shadesmar page]).

 

The Coppermind entry for Shardblades has it theorized that they're stored there, but I know of no confirmation. I know quite a lot of people were remarking on how Shardblades were covered in water when they were summoned and were saying the Blades were stored somewhere cold (therefore Spiritual Realm) for a while. I was one of them, after all. Of course, WoR happened so that seems a lot less likely now, and more recently I've come to suspect they (like uses of Surgebinding) just drain heat in order to materialize.

 

Honorblades are another curious item - where do they go? I've thought Shardplate can transition into the Cognitive/Spiritual because of how it disappears/goes translucent (which is how Pattern appears in Shadesmar for Shallan), so maybe they go the same place. And maybe dead spren revert to this behavior... but then, Honorblades don't need ten heartbeats.

 

Edited May 28, 2014 by Moogle

[CWS]

...CWS, if you don't know about it then I'm hesitant to tell you, because the revelation is quite awesome. 

Hah thats a hint that I completely missed something major...  I did read through it pretty quick, picked up that Pattern watched her for a while...  recall thinking I should know about something in the safe of her father...  recall thinking that she was pretty far along the "bonding" path...  hmmmm...  She would have seen a real shardblade courtesy of her brother, seem to think thats before she whipped hers out...  I had it in my mind that all the dissembling starting before her mother was killed was probably what attracted Pattern...

 

OK, if I were going to go back and re-read some parts to get what I'm missing, would I focus on one particular part, or am I being dumb enough that I probably need to re-read the whole thing ?

[Moogle]

Hah thats a hint that I completely missed something major...  I did read through it pretty quick, picked up that Pattern watched her for a while...  recall thinking I should know about something in the safe of her father...  recall thinking that she was pretty far along the "bonding" path...  hmmmm...  She would have seen a real shardblade courtesy of her brother, seem to think thats before she whipped hers out...  I had it in my mind that all the dissembling starting before her mother was killed was probably what attracted Pattern...

 

OK, if I were going to go back and re-read some parts to get what I'm missing, would I focus on one particular part, or am I being dumb enough that I probably need to re-read the whole thing ?

 

Shallan purposefully tries to mislead herself (and the reader), so it's not surprising... but yes, she says Pattern is her Shardblade, and always has been. It's a "deep truth" when she realizes it. The scene in question is the unlocking of the Oathgate, so you probably missed it in the chaos.

 

 

Adolin obeyed, scrambling forward, summoning his Shardblade. He rammed it into the slot, which again flowed to fit the weapon. Nothing happened. “It’s not working,” Adolin shouted.

Only one answer.

Shallan grabbed the hilt of his sword and whipped it out— ignoring the scream in her mind that came from touching it— then tossed it aside. Adolin’s sword vanished to mist.

A deep truth.

“There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades.” She hesitated for just a second. “All but mine. Pattern!”

He formed in her hands, the Blade she’d used to kill. The hidden soul. Shallan rammed it into the slot, and the weapon vibrated in her hands and glowed. Something deep within the plateau unlocked.

 

Also of note: it's why she hears no screaming, and why Kaladin doesn't either. (Though Kaladin is poor evidence, since he 'killed' Syl before touching Pattern.) She hears the screaming when she touches Adolin's Blade.

 

It seems that the Radiants just 'tune in' to the screams of the dead spren.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Moogle

[CWS]

hahahaa awww, yep, I totally read that, completely forgot or didnt process it....  Probably reading like a man possessed at that point and wanting to get back to Kal...   how embarassing.

 

So I've gotta agree with the contradiction of my thinking that the mists must come from summoning from the spiritual realm where the dead blades stay (I gotta believe she wouldnt unknowingly ask Pattern to "mist it up" to keep up with pretenses).

 

Thanks very much to everyone!

[Lumen]

Honorblades are another curious item - where do they go? I've thought Shardplate can transition into the Cognitive/Spiritual because of how it disappears/goes translucent (which is how Pattern appears in Shadesmar for Shallan), so maybe they go the same place. And maybe dead spren revert to this behavior... but then, Honorblades don't need ten heartbeats.

 

Don't the "dead spren" Shardblades only disappear if they have had a gem attached?  That is, the gem is somehow replacing the bond, and the imperfect bond is the cause of 10 heartbeats required.  Do gems on the shards need to be recharged?  Do they provide power for summoning/dismissal/bond?    So what you mean is, dead spren with partial bond from gem attachment "revert to this behavior".

[Moogle]

Don't the "dead spren" Shardblades only disappear if they have had a gem attached?  That is, the gem is somehow replacing the bond, and the imperfect bond is the cause of 10 heartbeats required.  Do gems on the shards need to be recharged?  Do they provide power for summoning/dismissal/bond?    So what you mean is, dead spren with partial bond from gem attachment "revert to this behavior".

 

Gems on Shardblades don't need to be recharged, according to Navani. It seems likely that the gem just serves as a way to force a bond (since spren are naturally trapped in gems). And yes, dead spren that are bonded are what I was referring to - they go somewhere, and I don't know where, and I'm thinking it may be where Honorblades go. Perhaps they hook themselves up on the person's spiritweb or something.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Moogle

[NutiketAiel]

I believe that it's related to the different ways that shards manifest in the physical realm.  On Scadrial, we see Preservation manifested in the physical realm in three different states:

 

Solid-  Beads of Lerasium

Liquid-  The Well of Ascension

Gaseous-  Mist/Deepness

 

We also see Ruin in all three of those states:

 

Solid-  Atium Beads

Liquid-  The lake in the mountains of pre-Lord Ruler Terris, encountered by Alendi & co on their way to the Well of Ascension

Gaseous-  The black smoke Vin and Elend walk through in the antechamber of the Well of Ascension

 

We also see the shardpool of Devotion on Sel (the pool in the mountain above Elantris), and we know for a fact that Devotion has been splintered.  Therefore, it stands to reason that the shards, or portions thereof, are capable of manifesting in the physical realm in solid, liquid or gaseous states.

 

We also know that majority of the Spren are splinters of Honor or Cultivation, and that those who are not are splinters of Adonalsium himself (Or is it Himself?  Itself?  What pronouns do we conventionally use for Adonalsium, anyway?).  Therefore, I do not find the similarity unusual at all.  Indeed, it should be expected.  Remember Sanderson's Third Law:

 

Expand on what you have already, before you add something new.

 

In this context, it makes perfect sense to me.  My theory is that the spren are using the gaseous form as part of a transitional state.  That is to say, immaterial -to- gaseous -to- solid, but that's pure speculation on my part.  Hell, it could even run the gamut and be immaterial -to- gaseous -to- liquid -to- solid; remember, we have numerous examples of shardblades being described as wet or dew covered just after they manifest.  I've usually taken the assumption that this is simply condensation from the "mist" state of the transformation, but it could be a remnant of a brief time the blade is in a liquid state between mist and solidity.

 

This change in states, incidentally, is something we have also most likely seen before.  The Lord Ruler moved Ruin's shardpool underground, at what became the Pits of Hathsin.  The liquid coalescing there, then, is what probably led to the beads of atium forming in the Hathsin geodes.

 

The specifics of the transformation doesn't really matter, though.  The initial post was about the similarities in description, and whether they were a coincidence or not.  As I've outlined here, a coincidence seems unlikely- they seem to be in keeping with what we know about the various states of shardic manifestations in the physical realm.

Edited May 30, 2014 by NutiketAiel

[Tempus]

Hi NutiketAiel, good to see you again. I want to bring back the original post topic - if spren transforms are similar to states of shardic materials, then what could be causing the vinelike apparitions?

[NutiketAiel]

Hi NutiketAiel, good to see you again. I want to bring back the original post topic - if spren transforms are similar to states of shardic materials, then what could be causing the vinelike apparitions?

Thanks. :-) I never have as much time as I'd like to be on the forums, but it's good to be back and participating.

I suspect that the similarity in appearance is due to the fact that both the spren and the mist are undergoing the same process. If we assume that, it makes perfect sense for the descriptions to be nearly identical.

As for why they specifically look "vine-like," that's harder to answer. I do have a theory, though. Take a look at the descriptions of awakened objects on Nalthis, in Warbreaker. When possible, they tend to take the form of living things, even when not strictly necessary to perform their functions. For example, a tapestry ordered to lift the awakener took the general shape of a hand, complete with veins, rather than simply wrapping around the awakener. The investiture (biochromatic breath in this case) was inclined to take the form of a living thing- more specifically, a human, as the breath comes from humans.

I suspect that it is the natural tendency of manifestations of investiture to take on the semblance of life when they are able, when manifesting in the physical realm. If the investiture is derived from a particular form of life, like breath, it will tend to take a form similar to that life form if it can. If it is not derived from a particular form of physical realm life, I theorize that it will take a more generic form that imitates some life form that is condusive to the intended function. The tendrils of mist were reaching out on Scadrial; on Roshar, they were stretching out to form a long blade. Reaching, stretching- in both cases, a vine is a life form that would exemplify that motion. We know of a profusion of vines on Roshar, and we have no reason to believe that vines didn't exist on pre-Ascension or post-Final Ascension Scadrial. Plus, I think I recall a description of ivy vines in one of the cultivated gardens in the first Mistborn trilogy. Renoux Manor maybe? Even if there are no vines on Scadrial during the Final Empire, Leras almost certainly was familiar with the concept of vines. My point being, a vine life form was available for the gaseous investiture to emulate on both Roshar and Scadrial.

Edited May 31, 2014 by NutiketAiel