Moogle Posted May 28, 2014 Posted May 28, 2014 It is very unlikely every Dustbringer and every Edgedancer failed to have children.... Dustbringers were generally reviled, and Edgedancers terrified common folk, so I'd imagine they had fewer children on average, but yeah, I agree. It's odd that we don't see red eyes if Dustbringers had them, though we do see gray eyes (see previous post for eye colors, I edited it) so perhaps those come from Edgedancers or Skybreakers.
Guest Posted May 28, 2014 Posted May 28, 2014 (edited) Dustbringers were generally reviled, and Edgedancers terrified common folk, so I'd imagine they had fewer children on average, but yeah, I agree. It's odd that we don't see red eyes if Dustbringers had them, though we do see gray eyes (see previous post for eye colors, I edited it) so perhaps those come from Edgedancers or Skybreakers. Well people may have been scared of Dustbringers and Edgedancers, but other Radiants were probably fine with them. Besides, it is most likely Radiants married other Radiants. As you pointed out in your other post, inheritance in Roshar is quite different than here. Therefore, if Dustbringers indeed have children, than red eyes must be seen at some point. Since I do not believe ALL Dustbringers to remain childless, I assumed red eyes are a myth except for Voidbringers. Or it may be their is something special about lighteyes and that only the Radiants that initially had darkeyes saw them change. If someone like Adolin, for example, became a Dustbringer, he could/should retain his blue eyes. It may be there weren't any lighteyes at the beginning of each Desolation. The humans were said to be primitive as the race was nearly extinct at the end of the previous Desolation. The world was not completely destroyed at the end of the previous Desolation, the Heralds remained and so did the Radiants. It may be lighteyes became an inheritance then and not before. I am rambling here, but it is my only hypothesis. Edited May 29, 2014 by maxal
Sun Posted May 29, 2014 Posted May 29, 2014 Shallan / Lightweaver's colour is indeed garnet, confirmed in-world. See beginning of chapter 71: I do wonder if Shallan's eyes should be garnet? Kaladin's change doesn't seem to be temporary due to excessive Stormlight use or something since Dalinar doesn't comment on his eyes reverting. Is being lighteyed have anything to do with it or is she a special case? Random thought: maybe Shallan's eyes changed to garnet as a child and this is what her mother noticed (I've wondered if maybe Shallan's mother thought Shallan was becoming a Voidbringer). But if so, nobody else has noticed and commented on it which is odd. Is it possible that Shallan has been sub-consciously keeping her eye colour the same? Or is it that lighteyed people's eyes only change when they hit the highest level as a Radiant? Or not at all? I always thought Shallan's eyes haven't changed yet because she hasn't said enough truths. However, I'm inclined to believe your version of events because it fits together so nicely.
Guest Posted May 29, 2014 Posted May 29, 2014 I always thought Shallan's eyes haven't changed yet because she hasn't said enough truths. However, I'm inclined to believe your version of events because it fits together so nicely. But she is more advanced than Kal into her Radianhood!
Kaladin he/him Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) I thought it was their power that scared people away not their personality. One of our prospect to become Dustbringer actually has the best of people skills so... I agree that Dalinar will be the face of the Radiant, but I am not sure he is the best person to do so. Yes, he is respected, but as Wit pointed out, he is a tyrant. He imposes his will and tolerates no false step. He also has much issues judging people often giving his trust to undeserving people. He failed to see Sadeas and Amaram treason. As for Shallan, big NO. First, she is just a teenager and if Brandon pulls out some ridiculous plot where the 17 years old is wiser, smarter, better than everyone twice her age (similarly to what is done in most YA), I will scream my head out. It was quite tedious already to watch a kid uncover ALL mysteries with basically no help when other people work their lifetime to uncover much less, I will be offended if he keeps at it. Shallan needs to be wrong at some point and make some mistakes just like anyone her age would. Besides, she is to unstable emotionally to be a spokes-person. The Radiant need someone with charisma, people's skills, someone others would just like and want to follow. Dalinar inspires respect and authority, but I am not so sure he is the right person. On the short term, yes, but on the long term? I could see Jasnah doing it as she is a Elsecaller, but Jasnah is cold, distant and has no empathy so I do not know how she would fare. Big dilemma here. I think the biggest factor in choosing who to represent the Knights Radiant is that there is a huge war on. The coming Desolation is on scale beyond anything that anyone living (sans the heralds) has ever experienced. Dalinar is renowned across Roshar as the unstoppable warrior known as the Blackthorn and respected as the most honorable of the Alethi Highprinces. Only a small tenth of a percent of the population will ever interact with Dalinar in any significant way. For the vast, vast majority he will simply be the leader of the Knights Radiant and the de facto ruler of Alethkar, the world's most powerful Kingdom. For them, Dalinar is most important as a symbol, they have to believe in him and the Knights who have scorned as traitors for thousands of years. They have to believe he is capable and willing to protect them. With his reputation as a general, warrior and honorable man, Dalinar is the best person for the job. As for the people who will interact with him, the Highprinces and lesser nobles of Alethkar respect his martial power, and will likely be a bit in awe of him after this latest battle and transformation. He's proved his visions are real. Sadeas has conveniently died. None of them are likely to openly oppose him for some time. As for Kings and nobles from elsewhere, they will know his reputation generaly, and their view of him will greatly increase once the Everstorm has circled the world once. He should be able to work with them. Edited June 5, 2014 by Kaladin
Seloun Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Edit: Here's a list of eyecolors:Jasnah: "pale violet" (her mother has violet as well) Taravangian: "pale grey" Gavilar: "pale green" Shallan: "pale blue" Kaladin: "pale blue" Szeth: "dark green" but "pale blue" with Honorblade out Laral: "bright, pale green" Hoid: "pale blue" Teshav: "pale yellow" Jackamav: "pale green" Elhokar: "pale green" (like his father's) Dunny: dark violet in the right light Navani: "light violet" Adolin: blue (Note: haven't found them all.) Based on Dunny's eye color, 'light-eyed' appears to be a function of a secondary pigment rather than color (i.e. there's a dark and light version of each appropriate chromatic shade). So focusing just on the shades, there are 6 represented on the list. These appear to be representable by the Honor-side Orders plus Truthwatchers: - Windrunner: Blue - Skybreaker: Grey - Bondsmith: Yellow - Stoneward: Brown/Tan (not on the list, but Amaram and Moash) - Willshaper: Violet - Truthwatcher: Green Truthwatchers don't fit the pattern (Truthwatchers never seem to fit the pattern), but otherwise they're all 'Honor-side' Orders. Also making this complicated is that the color of Elsecallers are unclear (looks kind of blue-ish or indigo-ish). Still doesn't explain Shallan or Jasnah, but it's possible for whatever reason they haven't had an event to 'switch' their eyes.
Guest Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 I think the biggest factor in choosing who to represent the Knights Radiant is that there is a huge war on. The coming Desolation is on scale beyond anything that anyone living (sans the heralds) has ever experienced. Dalinar is renowned across Roshar as the unstoppable warrior known as the Blackthorn and respected as the most honorable of the Alethi Highprinces. Only a small tenth of a percent of the population will ever interact with Dalinar in any significant way. For the vast, vast majority he will simply be the leader of the Knights Radiant and the de facto ruler of Alethkar, the world's most powerful Kingdom. For them, Dalinar is most important as a symbol, they have to believe in him and the Knights who have scorned as traitors for thousands of years. They have to believe he is capable and willing to protect them. With his reputation as a general, warrior and honorable man, Dalinar is the best person for the job. As for the people who will interact with him, the Highprinces and lesser nobles of Alethkar respect his martial power, and will likely be a bit in awe of him after this latest battle and transformation. He's proved his visions are real. Sadeas has conveniently died. None of them are likely to openly oppose him for some time. As for Kings and nobles from elsewhere, they will know his reputation generaly, and their view of him will greatly increase once the Everstorm has circled the world once. He should be able to work with them. I am not sure I agree. People are fearing the Radiants, they are quite badly viewed upon. Dalinar as the Blackthorn may have been respected, but he was also feared. Having him represent the Radiant may amplify the fear/distrust people have in the order which is why they would do better with a more charismatic and likable personality. However, since they do not have one in their current ranks, Dalinar will have to do.
kari-no-sugata Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Given her artistic skills, maybe Shallan would be the poster-designer rather than the poster-girl? For some fun, I imagined some war posters... Dalinar would probably be something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Kitchener_Wants_You#mediaviewer/File:YourCountryNeedsYou.jpg The classic "Your country needs you" poster with Lord Kitchener... who after all was "minster of war" (and Dalinar is Highprince of War) Kaladin would be the kid from humble background who makes good. Sticking with the British war posters theme he would be a Spitfire pilot. Something like these: http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/blog/2013/03/13/war-poster-wednesday-forward-to-victory http://pixels.com/featured/spitfire-attack-chris-lord.html Jasnah would be some kind of abstract ideal poster. Eg, Britannia: http://www.lexicolatry.com/2013/11/brittania-brit-chick-with-three-pronged.html Not sure what to do with Renarin. Any suggestions? What to do with Shallan herself? None of the posters I found seemed particularly appropriate... except this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On I wonder how Shallan will be perceived in the short term. While she did save the army at the end of WoR, given how Vorin culture divides male and female roles and how the Radiants are seen as fighters then even among women Shallan might not be seen as a good role-model. 1
Aether he/him Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Given her artistic skills, maybe Shallan would be the poster-designer rather than the poster-girl? For some fun, I imagined some war posters... Dalinar would probably be something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Kitchener_Wants_You#mediaviewer/File:YourCountryNeedsYou.jpg The classic "Your country needs you" poster with Lord Kitchener... who after all was "minster of war" (and Dalinar is Highprince of War) Kaladin would be the kid from humble background who makes good. Sticking with the British war posters theme he would be a Spitfire pilot. Something like these: http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/blog/2013/03/13/war-poster-wednesday-forward-to-victory http://pixels.com/featured/spitfire-attack-chris-lord.html Jasnah would be some kind of abstract ideal poster. Eg, Britannia: http://www.lexicolatry.com/2013/11/brittania-brit-chick-with-three-pronged.html Not sure what to do with Renarin. Any suggestions? What to do with Shallan herself? None of the posters I found seemed particularly appropriate... except this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On I wonder how Shallan will be perceived in the short term. While she did save the army at the end of WoR, given how Vorin culture divides male and female roles and how the Radiants are seen as fighters then even among women Shallan might not be seen as a good role-model. I laughed hard at some of those And I fully expect us to see some breaking down of the traditional Vorin values in Stones Unhallowed. Maybe not overturn them completely, but I think part of Shallan's arc will be her search for identity within her new role, much as her arc in Words of Radiance was her search for confidence and self-insight. 1
Guest Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 I laughed hard at some of those And I fully expect us to see some breaking down of the traditional Vorin values in Stones Unhallowed. Maybe not overturn them completely, but I think part of Shallan's arc will be her search for identity within her new role, much as her arc in Words of Radiance was her search for confidence and self-insight. I think all of the younger characters will help undermine the Vorin values. Shallan and Renarin will help redefine traditional male and female roles. Jasnah may have a role there are well. Kaladin, with the help of Adolin, will help redefine the position of the darkeyes in relation to the lighteyes. These two will help redefine the Alethki society. Adolin will shatter the Alethki rules. He is already unhappy as to how things are being conduct, I believe he will bring down some taboos such as not letting murderers and traitors like Sadeas walk unpunished simply because their hand was not directly holding the knife.
kari-no-sugata Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 I laughed hard at some of those And I fully expect us to see some breaking down of the traditional Vorin values in Stones Unhallowed. Maybe not overturn them completely, but I think part of Shallan's arc will be her search for identity within her new role, much as her arc in Words of Radiance was her search for confidence and self-insight. I hope so too. There's a lot she could do. I just wonder what route she'll end up going down. I've got some ideas but all very speculative at this point. The gender split is quite interesting but yeah, I don't think it'll last...
Windrunning he/him Posted June 9, 2014 Posted June 9, 2014 In so far as the leader's of the KR, or which order rules them, I don't think we can pin down one order exactly. I picture each Order being represented by one person and there being a sort of council. As we know the Windrunners have a sort of hierarchy already, along with some other orders, and I assume the orders that don't have a set hierarchy elect their representative.
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