The Unmade and Roshar's technology

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, StanLemon said:

They don't travel during the high storm. They must lock things up and people need to secure everything and find/make cover. High storms are regularly described as being able to throw boulders.

So tsvakv teleported with kaladin to the shattered plains? We did not read pages and pages of them traveling, and then sheltering in the caravan wagons during highstorms? We did not read about Moash being a caravan runner and staying away from main cities? We did not read pages and pages about Shallan traveling during highstorms? We did not read pages of Eshonai explaining her explorations and how she would be practically out in the open with just a shield and some small rocks to jam her shield again to handle the brunt of the storm front which is the main dangerous part? We did not read about the Alethi scouts with poles and a mini shield scouting the shattered plains and then sheltering out there? We did not read pages and pages of Kaladin as he traveled with the newly awakened parsh? I mean seriously how much further must I go on to show travel during highstorms not only possible, but regularly done? There is an article about highstorms also on the copper mind, but instead of posting the link and asking you to read it, I guess I have to post the quotes:

 

A highstorm has three general stages. The leading edge, or stormwall, is the most dangerous part of the storm. Immensely powerful winds generate a wall of dust, water, and larger debris.^[3] It is shown that it is powerful enough to carry large trees long distances into the Shattered Plains.^[4] The main body of the highstorm carries less debris, although the winds are still strong enough to hurl boulders. The trailing edge of the storm, known as the riddens, consists of light rains mixed with relatively mild gusts of wind. ^[5] The Purelake experiences less intense highstorms

Highstorms are the single most important force in Roshar's ecology, and life on the planet has adapted to them. Some plants, like lavis polyps, enclose themselves against the highstorm's fury; others retract or fold their relatively fragile leaves, vines, or roots away. Many plants have outer coverings infused with highstorm crem, forming protective shells.^[13] Stormwardens have discovered that Stormwater is better for plants on Roshar than regular water, with crem providing nutrients that would otherwise be provided by soil swept away by the highstorms.^[14] Stormlight from gemstones infused during highstorms also helps plant grow

Rosharan fauna has adapted as well; many species like axehounds, whitespines, and greatshells are covered in protective carapace. They also have gemhearts that glow with Stormlight, enabling their symbiotic relationship with spren.

For Roshar's native sentient species, the singers, highstorms are crucial part of their life cycle. Entering a highstorm allows them to bond a spren, changing their body into one of the dozens of specialized forms. In the past, this was done simply by entering the storm with a specific mindset; in the current day, the singers trap a spren in a gemstone beforehand and await the storm with it at the ready

People on Roshar live in cities and settlements that are protected from highstorms by natural or manmade structures. Kholinar has its windblades^[18]—large stone formations that divert the highstorm's force— and Sesemalex Dar has troughs that prevent the city from flooding.^[19] These structures are often city-wide and become an integral part of the city's culture.

Humans depend on highstorms not just for water, but also for the Stormlight that they use in their fabrials, the crem that they use as building material, and the regular weather patterns from which they base their calendars.

Other aspects of civilization are also affected by the highstorms. For example, sanitation regulations have been developed to prevent the trash of one town from being blown by the strong winds towards the next town. These regulations, however, do not apply on the Shattered Plains due to its isolated location, and so the refuse and litter of the Alethi warcamps there are piled high to be carried away during each highstorm

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Also any kind of permanent structure needs to be well fortified to handle and break the wind or they will be broken apart. Add years of wear and tear from having at least one of those storms every week will make anything complicated and delicate require a large amount of upkeep. Much more than happens anywhere with monsoon season here. The books do show examples of how they have adapted yes. But it's fairly clear you are underplaying how problematic the high storms are to Rosharan development.

I guess no one has actually read the article I posted, so I might as well copy paste what it says here just for it to still be ignored. Fun fun. 

Crem is a light brown, sediment-like substance. It falls along with the heavy rains during highstorms, while the lighter rainfall during the Weepings does not carry it.^[2] It gives stormwater a metallic taste.^[3] Consuming it can cause sickness, making highstorm water unsafe to drink; however, after about a day, it will settle on the bottom of the container, leaving clean water above.^[4] When dried, it can turn into dust.^[5][6] "Cremslime" - the mud formed of water mixed with crem - has an unpleasant stench.^[7] Densely-packed, accumulated crem forms cremstone, which is tannish brown in color

 

Highstorms cause crem buildup on all structures, whether unnatural or natural, such as buildings, plateaus, and even corpses.^[9][10] Unless cleaned regularly, everything on Roshar eventually becomes covered with crem, and any overhangs will grow crem stalagmites.^[11][9] In fact, the entire continent is slowly "migrating" leeward, thanks to the highstorms depositing crem as they travel

 

Crem is utilized by native Rosharan flora as source of nutrients, as well as structural reinforcement. Jella trees absorb crem to strengthen their wood against highstorms.^[14] Shalebark feeds on crem, and lavis polyps grow from seed-crem (which can be presumed to be crem mixed with lavis seeds)

 

Crem is one of Roshar's most versatile materials. Historically, humans have used it in construction, in the form of bricks.^[17] Crem-brick buildings can be found even in the present day, and some cities, such as Kharbranth, have walls plastered with crem for insulation.^[18] Singers, too, utilize crem and stone as building materials.

 

To filter crem out of rainwater, the people of Roshar use storm cisterns, which can do so automatically.^[20][21] The crem filtered out of water is often used as clay.^[4] Among others, the people of Sesemalex Dar are renowned for their expert crem pottery

 

Crem is also utilized in farming. When growing lavis, crem is added as fertilizer.^[23] It's also used when deworming fields to close the holes after removing worms, so that no new pests can infest the field again

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Using the water wheel example above. It's already been pointed out how your suggestion would be inefficient. But also Rosharans woul only be able to do it with rivers that were North/South in any lasting way. East/West rivers would be almost impossible.

So storm cisterns are a thing, and are not impossible from crem build up or highstorms, but water wheels with locking mechanisms are? Guess agree to disagree. 

12 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Not helpful for anything with moving parts

So you are saying Roshar lacks any kind of pully system, gears, or any moving parts because the highstorms prevent it from existing? Because I got a whole list of them from the book for you other than water wheels if you want me to post them. 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Turning the task of building a water wheel into the task of building a house that is built to withstand a flooding river in its ground floor. Which now has to be decremed. And you cannot build dams out of soil. It needs to be crem or rock. A water wheel is supposed to save labor. Meaning that if it takes that much effort, it is no longer feasible.

I have shown numerous examples above of how Roshar works regarding crem and its build up. At this point I guess I will just have to agree to disagree. 

 

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Good thing parshmen are a thing.  Also their is no soil on roshar to build the dam out of.  I would recommend making a wooden framework and coating it in crem which will steadily harden into stone.  As a side note if you build it in the right shape highstrom crem will actually repair your dam.

Building on this, it is also mentioned in the books that they do so to build windbreaks. They build a fence and layer it with crem. Each highstorm they shape and add more crem, building on it and making a larger and larger windbreak. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[StanLemon]

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Good thing parshmen are a thing.  Also their is no soil on roshar to build the dam out of.  I would recommend making a wooden framework and coating it in crem which will steadily harden into stone.  As a side note if you build it in the right shape highstrom crem will actually repair your dam.

Likely easier said than done. Again, it comes down to a cost benefit analysis. That's something that has held us back here on Earth. Sure there are lots of things we could do or have done significantly earlier than we did, but because those with money and power considered them too costly or time intensive, they weren't done. It generally requires a lot of foresight to make the kind of investment you suggest. Sure those developments long term on Roshar potentially could work but in the short term they would be very difficult and costly.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Likely easier said than done. Again, it comes down to a cost benefit analysis. That's something that has held us back here on Earth. Sure there are lots of things we could do or have done significantly earlier than we did, but because those with money and power considered them too costly or time intensive, they weren't done. It generally requires a lot of foresight to make the kind of investment you suggest. Sure those developments long term on Roshar potentially could work but in the short term they would be very difficult and costly.

It was shown in the books farmers building wind breaks. The only thing required was a rough base for the crem to accumulate on. Then shape it, and let it build some more. The only resources was the general starting frame, shaping and time. Farm land is passed down from family to family. They do it. It is literally spelled out in the book. 

[StanLemon]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It was shown in the books farmers building wind breaks. The only thing required was a rough base for the crem to accumulate on. Then shape it, and let it build some more. The only resources was the general starting frame, shaping and time. Farm land is passed down from family to family. They do it. It is literally spelled out in the book. 

Cool, won't work for a water wheel. Also farmland uses plants that have evolved to handle high storms and uses solid structure buildings. More complex technology is more susceptible to damage and being made inoperable by natural hazards. 

Human ingenuity is wonderful and can overcome a lot. But there is a lot to overcome on Roshar, as you said "it is literally spelled out in the book" and 1-3 high storms a week will be a constant detriment that likely can not be overcome. Think of how much time, effort, and money goes into damage control after hurricanes. Sure we haven't built places to be as hardy as structures are on Roshar but the books clearly show that even with all of their preparation, the high storms are very inconvenient and require a ton more labor because of it

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Cool, won't work for a water wheel. Also farmland uses plants that have evolved to handle high storms and uses solid structure buildings. More complex technology is more susceptible to damage and being made inoperable by natural hazards. 

Human ingenuity is wonderful and can overcome a lot. But there is a lot to overcome on Roshar, as you said "it is literally spelled out in the book" and 1-3 high storms a week will be a constant detriment that likely can not be overcome. Think of how much time, effort, and money goes into damage control after hurricanes. Sure we haven't built places to be as hardy as structures are on Roshar but the books clearly show that even with all of their preparation, the high storms are very inconvenient and require a ton more labor because of it

Dams are mentioned by the parsh and the humans in Words of Radiance at pages 716, 935, and 954. Hoid mentions permanent water ways on page 1076. Pulleys are mentioned in way of kings pages 116 and 634, words of radiance pages 414 and 490, and oathbringer on page 785. Words of Radiance page 459 mentions manufactories including textiles, shoes, ceramics, several mills and glassblowers. page 1037 describes a spoke on a mill. Way of Kings page 601 mentions millstone. oathbringer page 997 mentions men on rotation on ships patroling the grand waterway. Way of Kings page 647 when kaladin rides the storm in a vision, mentions waterways, and armies sheltering from storms with tents with stakes driven into the rock to hold them taunt. Light eyes in wooden wagons. 

At this point like I said, I guess agree to disagree. The book for myself has shown ample evidence. For you I guess not. To each their own. 

[Karger he/him]

Adding to what @Pathfinder says Roshar has the advantages of no water droughts and regular temperatures.  This means that you never have to worry about a riving going dry in or flooding.  In fact if it is at the right place the water level should be fairly constant except during the highstorm itself.  Proper placement of your waterwheel should mitigate this however on Roshar rivers go through stone so they will pretty much all be in canyons that allow protection from winds.  The rush of water could be bad but a good dam should be able to stop it if placed properly.  Also I just realized that dams act as decanters for heaver materials like crem so any dam would actually increase crem build up near the dam effectively strengthening itself.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So tsvakv teleported with kaladin to the shattered plains? We did not read pages and pages of them traveling, and then sheltering in the caravan wagons during highstorms?

Exactly. During a high storm they stop and take shelter in a mobile bunker. Meaning that sailing a ship on a flooding river during a Highstorm is problematic to say the least. ANy wind mill you would have to take apart removing the blades before a storm and the tower would have to be much sturdier than a terrestial wind mill. You could build a horizontal mill. But you would still have to secure it before every storm and it would have to be housed in a bunker.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Highstorms are the single most important force in Roshar's ecology, and life on the planet has adapted to them. Some plants, like lavis polyps, enclose themselves against the highstorm's fury; others retract or fold their relatively fragile leaves, vines, or roots away. Many plants have outer coverings infused with highstorm crem, forming protective shells.^[13] Stormwardens have discovered that Stormwater is better for plants on Roshar than regular water, with crem providing nutrients that would otherwise be provided by soil swept away by the highstorms.^[14] Stormlight from gemstones infused during highstorms also helps plant grow

Well yes, but the topic is not whether you can live under Rosharan conditions, but how suitable they are to protoindustrial technologies.
And how suitable Roshar is. The continent is less well suited to sea transport than Europe or South East Asia Or Japan.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess no one has actually read the article I posted, so I might as well copy paste what it says here just for it to still be ignored. Fun fun.

I did read it. But it has very few facts relevant to technology.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Crem is a light brown, sediment-like substance. It falls along with the heavy rains during highstorms, while the lighter rainfall during the Weepings does not carry it.^[2] It gives stormwater a metallic taste.^[3] Consuming it can cause sickness, making highstorm water unsafe to drink; however, after about a day, it will settle on the bottom of the container, leaving clean water above.^[4] When dried, it can turn into dust.^[5][6] "Cremslime" - the mud formed of water mixed with crem - has an unpleasant stench.^[7] Densely-packed, accumulated crem forms cremstone, which is tannish brown in color

That is the key point. It turns rapidly into stone. For the purpose of how much water it retains the answer is the same whether we are talking about cremstone or bedrock: So close to zero that it does not matter. Meaning that water that falls onto Roshar (the continent) is either sucked up by plants or follows gravity. So it collects in depressions, which get always shallower because crem will fill them, or runs into rivers directly.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Crem is one of Roshar's most versatile materials. Historically, humans have used it in construction, in the form of bricks.^[17] Crem-brick buildings can be found even in the present day, and some cities, such as Kharbranth, have walls plastered with crem for insulation.^[18] Singers, too, utilize crem and stone as building materials.

That is good if you want to build a wall. But if you go down, the problem persists. You have to go through stone. Granted, it is cremstone, not granit, but soil is still much easier if you want to dig a canal. Canals are extremely important in protoindustrial transportation.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Building on this, it is also mentioned in the books that they do so to build windbreaks. They build a fence and layer it with crem. Each highstorm they shape and add more crem, building on it and making a larger and larger windbreak. 

Well yes. A windbreak won't help you with a flood though. And building a wind mill behind a wind break limits its utility.

 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Dams are mentioned by the parsh and the humans in Words of Radiance at pages 716, 935, and 954.

Yes, as figures of speech:

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It had been centuries since this power had been used, and so - like a river that had been dammed - the energy waited impatiently to be freed.

No indication anybody built a dam.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Hoid mentions permanent water ways on page 1076.

Exactly. As an unusual exception:

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A small river gurgled nearby, one of the few permanent waterways in this strangle land.

Normal Rosharan rivers often fall dry. For the obvious reason of the land having no soil.

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. During a high storm they stop and take shelter in a mobile bunker. Meaning that sailing a ship on a flooding river during a Highstorm is problematic to say the least. ANy wind mill you would have to take apart removing the blades before a storm and the tower would have to be much sturdier than a terrestial wind mill. You could build a horizontal mill. But you would still have to secure it before every storm and it would have to be housed in a bunker.

Did you check the page reference I made that there is a permanent water way patrolled by troops mentioned by Dalinar at a military meeting?

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Well yes, but the topic is not whether you can live under Rosharan conditions, but how suitable they are to protoindustrial technologies.
And how suitable Roshar is. The continent is less well suited to sea transport than Europe or South East Asia Or Japan.

Never once commented on sea transport. I commented on river and coastal transport both of which we have seen in the novels. 

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I did read it. But it has very few facts relevant to technology.

I disagree

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That is the key point. It turns rapidly into stone. For the purpose of how much water it retains the answer is the same whether we are talking about cremstone or bedrock: So close to zero that it does not matter. Meaning that water that falls onto Roshar (the continent) is either sucked up by plants or follows gravity. So it collects in depressions, which get always shallower because crem will fill them, or runs into rivers directly.

Did you miss the part of erosion both water and wind? The entire continent is not only being added via crem, but worn away via erosion. That happens to rivers all the time on our planet, and that does not prevent water travel. Which it does not matter. Water travel via rivers are specifically mentioned, so it exists. 

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That is good if you want to build a wall. But if you go down, the problem persists. You have to go through stone. Granted, it is cremstone, not granit, but soil is still much easier if you want to dig a canal. Canals are extremely important in protoindustrial transportation.

They are able to build storm cisterns and maintain them for water. Apparently it is not as great an issue as you put forward

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Well yes. A windbreak won't help you with a flood though. And building a wind mill behind a wind break limits its utility.

I was using the windbreak to demonstrate how with minimal resources, once could be constructed. As also prolific pointed out, it works for dams. You place some rocks heavy rocks into a river. Over time sediment gathers. You place more rocks in the river. The flow begins to slow. Once the rocks peak out of the water, you can add crem to it, that also builds from the sediments in the river. Minimal resources and effort resulting in a dam.

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Yes, as figures of speech:

So you are saying dams do not exist on roshar but the humans and parsh know what they are? The Rosharans call everything chicken, but they do in fact have birds. They mention soil, because soil is in fact a thing on Roshar. 

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No indication anybody built a dam.

So they are inventing words that describe exactly what a dam is and how it functions?

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Exactly. As an unusual exception:

Nope. I also gave an example of a main river water way that troops patrolled regularly. Hearth stone is also by a brook. The unusualness that Hoid commented on is that it was permanently as in all the time travel able on. That does not mean there is no travel at all else where. 

 

edit: way of kings page 592, mention of traders searching for river passage to new natanan. 

Way of kings page 628 description of meeting the parshendi. mentioning setting up camp in a heavily wooded area that was ideal for long term camp as the dense wood trees protected from winds, and the river's gorge eliminated the risk of flooding.

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Normal Rosharan rivers often fall dry. For the obvious reason of the land having no soil.

Since it is so obvious can you reference where in the book it states that?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Did you check the page reference I made that there is a permanent water way patrolled by troops mentioned by Dalinar at a military meeting?

Is that what you referred to in page 954?

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Never once commented on sea transport. I commented on river and coastal transport both of which we have seen in the novels.

Also important for proto-industry.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They are able to build storm cisterns and maintain them for water. Apparently it is not as great an issue as you put forward

That does not require drilling.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I was using the windbreak to demonstrate how with minimal resources, once could be constructed. As also prolific pointed out, it works for dams. You place some rocks heavy rocks into a river. Over time sediment gathers. You place more rocks in the river. The flow begins to slow. Once the rocks peak out of the water, you can add crem to it, that also builds from the sediments in the river. Minimal resources and effort resulting in a dam.

That is not easy. In particular the rocks need to withstand the next flood.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So you are saying dams do not exist on roshar but the humans and parsh know what they are?

Yes. Any people living in a land which has rivers with enough sediment knows natural dams rivers build. If your land isn't too flat, you will see land slides. If it is cold enough you will also see ice dams. The idea that a dam is primarily an artificial construct is a cultural notion of people living in an industrial economy.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Since it is so obvious can you reference where in the book it states that?

Certainly, if Hoid in WoR is not enough we also have:

• Oathbringer, page 187:

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  ... we should be near enough the river that we can gather more water. It won't flow much longer with the end of the rains.

   

• Oathbringer, page 582:
   

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  The river is one of the most consistent in Alethkar. It doesn't even dry up in the Midpeace.

   

• Oathbringer, page 981:
   

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  "Sail," Dalinar said.
  "Sail?"
  "The rivers should be flowing," Dalinar said

   

• Oathbringer, page 1209:
   

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  Along a dried-out river, he found a little group of refugees huddled by a cavern in the stone

   

A typical Rosharan river is impermanent and falls dry often and many are filled only during and shortly after rain.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Is that what you referred to in page 954?

Nope. Check my prior posts

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Also important for proto-industry.

And once again, (and this will be the last time as I am tired of repeating myself), river travel happens. 

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That does not require drilling.

And yet Shallan mentions canals. 

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That is not easy. In particular the rocks need to withstand the next flood.

The next flood that is predictable. Start from the shore and work your way out. 

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Yes. Any people living in a land which has rivers with enough sediment knows natural dams rivers build. If your land isn't too flat, you will see land slides. If it is cold enough you will also see ice dams. The idea that a dam is primarily an artificial construct is a cultural notion of people living in an industrial economy.

So what you are saying is there are natural dams evident everywhere that can be replicated by people? Like what happened in real life?

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Certainly, if Hoid in WoR is not enough we also have:

• Oathbringer, page 187:

That is one that is not permanent. There are those that are, as I have shown. Travel can be still done on permanent rivers as well as the not permanent ones, and the highstorms are predictable to know when they would flow to plan such travel. 

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• Oathbringer, page 582:
   

 

So another example of a river that persists

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• Oathbringer, page 981:

 

Thank you for the example again proving there is river travel.

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• Oathbringer, page 1209:

Does not dispute anything I have said. Thank you for finally providing references from the book!

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A typical Rosharan river is impermanent and falls dry often and many are filled only during and shortly after rain.

And yet it occurs often enough, is predictable enough, and useful enough that river travel is a fact of the novel. Of which you yourself have quoted. 

 

As I said to stanlemon, at this point I am just going to agree to disagree. I do not see any benefit to continuing this. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Also important for proto-industry.

Not really on Roshar.  Only aimia is not part of the continent and it is completely barren to the best of our knowledge.  Shipping is nice but it is not really necessary.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That does not require drilling.

Don't drill then build.  Scoop the crem out of one area and move it to either side of that area.  Problem solved  Also shardblades and soulcasters.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That is not easy. In particular the rocks need to withstand the next flood.

Cement comes with the flood.  Stick them in place.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

The river is one of the most consistent in Alethkar. It doesn't even dry up in the Midpeace.

Most rivers dry up in certain periods.  The Nile is a reliable river and it goes through periods of drought just like every other river.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

A typical Rosharan river is impermanent and falls dry often and many are filled only during and shortly after rain.

You need a full dam to make most waterwheels work anyway.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Not really on Roshar.  Only aimia is not part of the continent and it is completely barren to the best of our knowledge.  Shipping is nice but it is not really necessary.

That is precisely the point. Roshar is developing slowly. Why? Hypothesis: One factor is a lack of cheap transportation
Finding: Roshar indeed has little cheap sea transport, due to its shape. Where did the industrial revolution start? Great Britain. A ridiculously long coast line for its area. Where do we find thriving proto-industries? Among other areas, the northern Mediterranean. Again, long coast lines for its area. Another area was China. Major permament rivers and a famous canal and costal shipping. Again not found on Roshar.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Don't drill then build.  Scoop the crem out of one area and move it to either side of that area.

Roshar usually has ground which is rock. You would need to dig into that, if you want a canal.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

 Problem solved  Also shardblades and soulcasters.

How many of those are there for a whole continent?

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Cement comes with the flood.  Stick them in place.

Most rivers dry up in certain periods.  The Nile is a reliable river and it goes through periods of drought just like every other river.

Not in the areas where industrialization started on Earth. When was the last time a major English river dried out? You have to go into the geological past for examples. Or a German river or a Northern Italian or East Chinese river or a river on the east coast of North America?
All the areas in which the industrial revolution took hold in early or showed a thriving proto-industry show permanent rivers and decent oceanic shipping. You can ship goods quite reliably there by numerous ways.
That is precisely the reason it does not help to show that under good conditions you can sometimes ship by river on Roshar. It needs to work well, not just in principle.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

You need a full dam to make most waterwheels work anyway.

Yes. On a world where you cannot just build an earthen dam. On a world where most rivers have a wildly fluctuating amount of flow. We are talking about making something work economically, not a proof of concept.

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Finding: Roshar indeed has little cheap sea transport, due to its shape. Where did the industrial revolution start? Great Britain. A ridiculously long coast line for its area. Where do we find thriving proto-industries? Among other areas, the northern Mediterranean. Again, long coast lines for its area. Another area was China. Major permament rivers and a famous canal and costal shipping. Again not found on Roshar.

The industrial revolution most likely started in Britain because it has large coal deposits that were underwater and they needed to develop and good mechanism for pumping out that water.  This pump was then refined until it could be used in other methods like trains and steamships.  China did not industrialize until much latter.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Roshar usually has ground which is rock. You would need to dig into that, if you want a canal.

I proposed several solutions which you are not paying attention to.  Such as just making water bridges out of the cement that falls from the sky or using shardblades and soulcasters.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How many of those are there for a whole continent?

Enough.  Think about how much labor it takes to build one by digging with a shovel.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Not in the areas where industrialization started on Earth. When was the last time a major English river dried out?

Correlation not causation.  I already told you the major reasons Britain industrialized.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Or a German river or a Northern Italian

Germany industrialized latter then Britain and this was largely do to railway work.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Northern Italian

No idea but that area has to many mountains for canals anyway.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

East Chinese river

also took much longer to industrialize.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

east coast of North America?

Waterways were actually important to early American industrialization.  However these were natural waterways and there were many other factors.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/12/2019 at 2:31 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

The industrial revolution most likely started in Britain because it has large coal deposits that were underwater and they needed to develop and good mechanism for pumping out that water.  This pump was then refined until it could be used in other methods like trains and steamships.  China did not industrialize until much latter.

Britain and the Netherlands were the richest parts of Europe in the 18th century. It would be too much of a coincidence to assume that the Industrial Revolution happened in the richest place that had coal by accident. Areas with coal deposits are not that rare in Europe, let alone in the world. In addition, the early British textile industry was powered by water. The earliest mechanical looms were even called 'water frames'.
The relative wealth of preindustrial times depended on trade, which needs transport.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:31 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

I proposed several solutions which you are not paying attention to.  Such as just making water bridges out of the cement that falls from the sky or using shardblades and soulcasters.

Not very practical ones. Unless you dig down, you will end up with canals above ground level. Your canal banks will be a problem. Water is heavy. They are a security risk, in case a bank breaks. You need to build bridges over it. You need a system to fill them with water, and so on.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:31 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Enough.  Think about how much labor it takes to build one by digging with a shovel.

So much or little labor that they were dug regularly, even back into classical antiquity.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:31 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Correlation not causation.  I already told you the major reasons Britain industrialized.

Germany industrialized latter then Britain and this was largely do to railway work.

This really does not explain why Germany's heavy and chemical industry is lined up along the Rhine river.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:31 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

No idea but that area has to many mountains for canals anyway.

It has the Po river and, no, the area is home to several major canals linking the important cities to it.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:31 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

also took much longer to industrialize.

Waterways were actually important to early American industrialization.  However these were natural waterways and there were many other factors.

Exactly. They were. Yet permanent waterways are a rare exception on Roshar. There is the explanation.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Britain and the Netherlands were the richest parts of Europe in the 18th century

But not the richest part of the world.  Ahh euro-centrism good to see you again.  China was actually the most educated, most technologically advanced, most populated country on earth during the early 19th century.  It also had a large bureaucracy and a strong innovating community .    

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

let alone in the world

Easy to mine coal is actually somewhat uncommon outside Europe.  This is the likely source of your eurocentrism(and most eurocentrism).

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

you will end up with canals above ground level

Which is fine.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Water is heavy. They are a security risk, in case a bank breaks

Keep some of that cement that falls from the sky every two weeks handy.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You need to build bridges over it

Also a problem with normal channels FWI.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So much or little labor that they were dug regularly, even back into classical antiquity.

They were large scale construction projects generally made by the central government or the military of those nations.  They were incredibly expensive.  The cost of getting a shardblade or soulcaster to do the work seems similar.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This really does not explain why Germany's heavy and chemical industry is lined up along the Rhine river.

Because it was deemed a militarily secure place to put those industries during the world wars.  The river is a natural defense against invasion.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. They were. Yet permanent waterways are a rare exception on Roshar. There is the explanation.

My point was that in all of your examples on a couple of them even work.  For an example to actually hold water(pun not intended) you are going to need to list a verity of examples that all agree.  For example Canada has more natural water ways then the US but it took longer to industrialize.